>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

TRUMP AND PUTIN PREPARE TO TALK UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE.

I ASKED KYIV'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT HIS HOPES AND FEARS FOR THE ALASKA SUMMIT.

>>> EVENT STARVATION GRIPS GAZA AS IT IS REALLY A BOMBING CONTINUES.

STILL, VOICES ON BOTH SIDES CALL FOR PEACE.

I SPEAK TO A PALESTINIAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST AND FORMER HIGH-LEVEL AIR FORCE GENERAL.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, TEXAS DEMOCRATS FLEE THE STATE TO FIGHT REPUBLICANS' REDISTRICTING PLAN.

MICHEL MARTIN TALKS TO TEXAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE JAMES TALARICO.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING, SYLVIA AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK GLESSNER, THE FILAMENT FOUNDATION, THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FONDA, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA U.N., COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

POSITIVE WORDS FROM VLADIMIR PUTIN ON THE EVE OF HIS ALASKA FLATTERING TRUMPS DIPLOMATIC INITIATIVE AND HINTING OF A BROADER OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEACE.

THOUGH, COULD ALSO BE A DIVERSION TACTIC?

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> TO TELL YOU ABOUT THE STAGE WE ARE AT WITH THE CURRENT AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, WHICH AS EVERYONE KNOWS, IS MAKING, IN MY OPINION, QUITE ENERGETIC AND SINCERE EFFORT TO STOP THE HOSTILITIES, STOP THE CRISIS, AND REACH AGREEMENTS THAT ARE OF INTEREST TO ALL PARTIES INVOLVED IN THIS CONFLICT, IN ORDER TO CREATE LONG-TERM CONDITIONS OF PEACE BETWEEN OUR COUNTRIES AND IN EUROPE AND THE WORLD AS A WHOLE.

IF WE REACH AGREEMENTS IN THE AREA OF CONTROL OVER STRATEGIC WEAPONS.

>> BEFORE PETER AND ANDREW TRUMP RANGE IN THE NUCLEAR ARMS RACE, THERE IS A MATTER OF UKRAINE TO CONSIDER.

MET WITH BRITISH PRIME MINISTER TODAY TO UNDERSCORE A UNITED FRONT AMONGST WESTERN LEADERS, WHO AGREE TO ANY PEACE PLAN WOULD START WITH A CEASE-FIRE AND THAT UKRAINE MUST BE AT THE NEGOTIATIONS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE IS ON BOARD WITH THESE CONDITIONS, AND HE WARNED VLADIMIR PUTIN OF VERY SEVERE CONSEQUENCES IF RUSSIA DOES NOT AGREE TO STOP THE WAR.

SO, WHAT MIGHT ACTUALLY COME OUT OF TOMORROW'S SUMMIT, AND HOW DO UKRAINIANS VIEW A MEETING ABOUT THEIR FUTURE HAPPENING OVER THERE HEADS?

DIMITRI WAS FOREIGN MINISTER FOR MOST OF THE WAR, HE IS JOINING US FROM KYIV.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT IS MY PLEASURE.

SO, WE STARTED BY ASKING, AND I WANT TO KNOW BY YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW ARE YOU ALL FEELING ABOUT THIS MEETING?

>> WELL, UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH SO MANY HARDSHIPS, WE ENDURED SO MUCH, WE HAVE SEEN SO MANY TALKS, ANNOUNCEMENTS, OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE HAVE BECOME EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS ABOUT EVERY NEXT PROMISE OF A SOLUTION, WHETHER IT IS A PAUSE OR ANYTHING ELSE.

SO, UKRAINIANS DEFINITELY HAVE HOPES FOR THE MEETING, BUT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT JUDGING FROM WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE FRONT LINE, WE ARE NOT CLOSE TO PEACE.

AND EXPECTATIONS ARE VERY CAUTIOUS.

>> I AM GOING TO GET TO THE FRONT LINE IN A MOMENT, I WANT YOU TO REACT TO WHAT PRESIDENT PUTIN SAID ABOUT OTHER, YOU KNOW, ASPECTS OF A BROADER PEACE DEAL OR NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN, HE WENT OFF ONTO NUCLEAR WEAPONS, HE CALLED THEM STRATEGIC OFFENSIVE WEAPONS, AND WE UNDERSTAND HE IS TALKING ABOUT TRADE AND OTHER ISSUES, HE IS RAISING ALL THAT, SO MORE BILATERAL STUFF THAN ACTUAL UKRAINIAN STUFF.

>> WELL, THAT'S EXACTLY HOW RUSSIA HAS BEEN POSITIONING THE UKRAINE ISSUE IN ITS AGENDA WITH THE UNITED STATES.

OVER THE LAST YEARS.

PRESIDENT PUTIN ALWAYS TRIES TO UNDERSCORE THAT UKRAINE IS A ISSUE TO DISCUSS, AND THERE ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES ON THE TABLE.

UM, THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THAT, WE SHOULDN'T BE GETTING PARTICULARLY AGITATED ABOUT THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANYTHING NEW AT ALL IN PUTIN'S STANCE , AND CERTAINLY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STANCE, THAT MIGHT GIVE YOU ANY HOPE FOR TOMORROW?

>> WELL, LET ME TAKE A RISK BY SAYING THAT I DO NOT EXPECT ANY BIG BREAKTHROUGH SOLUTIONS, WHETHER THE ONES THAT MAY LOOK GOOD FOR UKRAINE OR THE ONES THAT MAY LOOK BAD FOR UKRAINE AND FOR EUROPE AND THE WORLD FROM TOMORROW'S SUMMIT.

THEY MAY SEND A SIGNAL THAT THEY ARE READY TO CONTINUE TALKING AND SOME IMPORTANT STEPS HAVE BEEN MADE TOWARDS ENDING THIS WAR, BUT THE SITUATION IS TOO COMPLEX.

THE LEVEL OF TRUST BETWEEN STAKEHOLDERS, INCLUDING BETWEEN RUSSIA AND AMERICA, IS TOO LOW.

SO, WHAT WE CAN HOPE FOR IS THAT THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WILL REMAIN OPEN AFTER TOMORROW'S SUMMIT.

BUT OF COURSE, ALL OF THIS WILL BE SURROUNDED BY THE FALL OF DIPLOMACY STATEMENTS, INTERPRETATIONS, WHICHEVER SIDE WILL UTILIZE FOR ITS OWN PURPOSES.

>> WELL, YOU BEING IN SORT OF THAT DIPLOMATIC HOTHOUSE, FIRST IT APPEARS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TOLD BY PUTIN VIA WYCOFF, HIS ENVOY, THAT THERE WAS A SUGGESTION OF SWAPPING TERRITORIES, YOU KNOW, FROM PUTIN.

BUT THEN IT TURNED OUT THERE WAS NO GIVING BACK ANYTHING TO UKRAINE, IT WAS ALL ABOUT TAKING THE TERRITORIES THAT HE WANTED FROM UKRAINE.

DO YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT WHAT THE JUST HAVE THIS MEETING?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR?

>> WELL, LISTEN, SWAPPING LAND IS NOT WORKABLE, IT IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

YOU WILL --I THINK WE WILL FORGET ABOUT THIS IDEA PRETTY SOON.

BECAUSE BASICALLY, WHEN SOMEONE USE THE WORDS LAND SWAP, THAT IMPLIES THAT UKRAINE WILL GIVE PART OF THE LAND TO RUSSIA AND RUSSIA WILL GIVE PART OF THE LAND TO UKRAINE.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IS NOT MEANT UNDER THESE WORDS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS PARTICULAR WAR.

BECAUSE WHAT PUTIN SUGGESTED IS THIS : I GRAB SOME OF YOUR LANDS, I'M READY TO WITHDRAW FROM TINY BITS OF YOUR LANDS, BUT YOU WILL PROMISE THAT YOU WILL NEVER TRY TO RECLAIM THE VAST LANDS THAT I WILL KEEP UNDER MY CONTROL, AND YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM .

NIGHTMARE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A LAWYER TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS DEAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAND SWAP.

THERE IS NOTHING TO SWAP, BECAUSE ALL THIS TERRITORY IS UKRAINIAN.

THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION FOR THE LAND ISSUE, WHICH INDEED IS THE BIGGEST OBSTACLE IN NEGOTIATIONS, IS TO LEAVE THIS MATTER IN THE GRAY ZONE WERE BOTH SIDES WILL CLAIM THEIR TITLE OF OWNERSHIP ON THIS LAND.

IF PRESIDENT PUTIN DOES NOT MAKE THAT CONCESSION , THESE TALKS ARE NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

BY THE WAY, YOU CAN HEAR THE AIR RAID SIREN SPOT ON MY BACK.

>> I CAN.

I KNOW THAT SOUND OBVIOUSLY FROM WHEN I WAS THERE.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT APPEARS THAT PREPARING FOR THIS SUMMIT, THERE HAVE BEEN FEWER OF THE RELENTLESS RUSSIAN ATTACKS ON KYIV IN THE LAST WEEK, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> [ SIRENS ] >> INDEED.

RAID SIRENS, MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THE RECENT BALLISTIC ATTACK, BUT MISSILES LAND OUTSIDE OF KYIV, THEY TARGET CITIES --OTHER CITIES, NOT KYIV.

AND YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE IT AS A PART OF PUTIN'S PREPARATION FOR SUMMIT.

WHILE HE IS NOT --WHILE HE IS NOT LIMITING HIS FORCES AND ATTACKING UKRAINE AS A COUNTRY AND DIFFERENT TARGETS ACROSS UKRAINE, HE KNOWS HOW SENSITIVE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TO TAX ON THE CAPITAL AND THEREFORE, HE REFRAINS FROM DOING SO, AT LEAST HE HAS BEEN AVOIDING THAT SO FAR.

>> ARE YOU OKAY?

DO YOU MIND --CAN YOU KEEP TALKING WITH THIS GOING ON?

>> YES, YES.

WE UKRAINIANS KNOW THAT THERE IS ALWAYS A PAUSE BETWEEN AIR RAID SIREN AND THE ACTUAL ATTACK, SO WE STILL HAVE TIME.

>> ALL RIGHT, WE WILL KEEP GOING THEN.

YOU SAID AND ALSO OBVIOUSLY THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID AND THE ALLIES HAVE SAID NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE.

NO DEALS MADE BEHIND UKRAINE'S BACK OR OVER UKRAINE'S HEAD, AND THAT IS ONE OF PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S STIPULATIONS IN SORT OF A SERIES THAT YOU PUT FORWARD, INCLUDING NEEDING PROPER SECURITY GUARANTEES, AND OF COURSE INCLUDING WHATEVER HAPPENS IN ALASKA TO INCLUDE A CEASE-FIRE FIRST.

SO, DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR COUNTRY HAS MADE THAT VERY CLEAR?

THERE HAS BEEN A FRANTIC WEEK OF NEGOTIATION AND DIPLOMACY, WITH CALLS AND ALLIES AND TRUMP AND EVERYBODY TRYING TO GET ON THE SAME PAGE.

DID YOU THINK THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT IS SETTLED?

>> [ SIRENS ] >> YOU SEE, YOU CAN ALWAYS WANTED --PUTIN HAS A DREAM, RIGHT?

AND THAT DREAM IS THIS: HE SITS DOWN WITH THE WEST PRESIDENT AND WHATEVER HIS NAME IS OR HER NAME IS, AND DRAWS LINES ON THE MAP OF THE WORLD, DIVIDING THE WORLD , THE MAP.

THAT IS HIS DREAM.

AND HE NEVER WANTS ANYONE ELSE AT THAT TABLE, BECAUSE HIS GOAL IS TO TELL THE WHOLE WORLD AND THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE THAT RUSSIA IS EQUAL TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND IN THAT SENSE, HIS DREAM WILL COME TRUE IN ONE SPECIFIC MEETING IN ALASKA.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP CANNOT ACT AND DOES NOT ACT IN ISOLATION.

SO, WHILE PRESIDENT PUTIN DOES EVERYTHING HE CAN TO DEPRIVE UKRAINE AND ITS EUROPEAN FRIENDS AND EUROPE AS A WHOLE OF THEIR AGENCY IN NEGOTIATIONS, PRESIDENT TRUMP NEGOTIATES AND CONSULTS WITH EUROPEANS.

THERE WAS A CONVERSATION YESTERDAY, HE PROMISED TO TALK WITH THEM FOLLOWING THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH TO THE SUMMIT WITH PUTIN.

IS UKRAINE --WILL UKRAINE BE AT THE SUMMIT?

NO.

WILL UKRAINE BE EXCLUDED FROM NEGOTIATIONS?

NO.

IT'S JUST HOW TALKS WILL BE STRUCTURED BUT IT'S BAD THAT UKRAINE WILL NOT BE AT THE SUMMIT, IT'S BAD THAT EUROPE WILL NOT BE AT THE SUMMIT, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP CANNOT AFFORD EXCLUDING THESE STAKEHOLDERS FROM TALKS FOR A VERY SIMPLE REASON.

BECAUSE WHATEVER DEAL HE MAY MAKE WITH PUTIN , YOU CANNOT ENFORCE THIS DEAL IF IT COMES AT ODDS WITH EUROPEAN AND UKRAINIAN INTERESTS.

SO, HE HAS TO NEGOTIATE, HE HAS TO GO, AND HE HAS TO TAKE IN ACCOUNT WHAT THESE AGENTS, WHAT THESE ACTORS ARE SAYING, WHATEVER PUTIN THINKS OF THEM.

THAT'S ANOTHER THING YOUR PRESIDENT HAS SAID IS THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE FINALLY SOME PUNITIVE MEASURES AGAINST PUTIN IF , YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T GET A CEASE-FIRE AT THE SUMMIT AND IF SO YOU KNOW, MASHA GESSEN, A CREDIBLE VOICE WHO IS A NEW YORK TIMES OPINION COLUMNIST, HAS WRITTEN THE ONLY THING THAT CAN FORCE PUTIN TO NEGOTIATE IN EARNEST IS THE POSSIBILITY OF MILITARY DEFEAT.

WITHOUT THAT PROSPECT, HE IS CONTENT TO LET THE WAR CONTINUE FOREVER.

HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSING WEALTH AS MUCH AS TRUMP IMAGINED HE DOES AND HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSING SOLDIERS AT ALL.

IN 2022 AND AGAIN THIS MAY, THE KREMLIN NOTED THAT PETER THE GREAT'S WAR WITH SWEDEN WHICH BEGAN IN 1700 LASTED 21 YEARS.

THIS WAR, TOO, COULD GO ON FOR DECADES.

IT HAS ALREADY BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS IF YOU TAKE THE FIRST INVASION AND ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA.

>> WELL, TO BE CORRECT IN ANSWERING THIS QUESTION, WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR, WE HAVE TO DEFINE THE WORD WAR.

THE WAR OF THIS LEVEL OF INTENSITY AND SCALE LAST FOREVER OR FOR MANY, MANY YEARS?

NO, IT CANNOT.

BUT CAN A WAR THAT WILL COMPRISE OF DIFFERENT PHASES OF DIFFERENT INTENSITY LAST FOR YEARS?

CLEARLY, IT CAN.

SO, WHAT MAY HAPPEN IS THAT THIS PHASE OF THE WAR WILL BE FOLLOWED WITH SOMETHING THAT WILL LOOK LIKE A CEASE-FIRE, THEN THE CEASE-FIRE WILL BE VIOLATED AFTER SOME TIME, AND THE WAR WILL RAGE AGAIN, THEN IT WILL FALL DOWN.

YOU CANNOT FIGHT ENDLESSLY AT THIS SCALE WITHOUT HAVING PAUSES.

AND THIS IS WHY HERE IN KYIV, FOR EXAMPLE, EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT EVEN IF A CEASE-FIRE IS ANNOUNCED, IT WILL NOT BE THE END OF THE WAR, I DO NOT KNOW ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT A CEASE-FIRE WILL MEAN THE END OF THE WAR.

THIS IS WHAT UKRAINIANS , I WOULD SAY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY -- HAVE PSYCHOLOGICALLY PREPARED THEMSELVES FOR.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU THAN ABOUT THE WAR, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO, KNOWING THAT THIS SUMMIT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, THE RUSSIANS HAVE DONE SOME LIGHTNING MOVES IN THE EAST , A VITAL HUB FOR YOU ALL.

WHAT WOULD YOU ADVISE, LET'S SAY YOUR COUNTERPART, SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO, AFTER ALL THE TIMES YOU HAVE BEEN AS FOREIGN ADMINISTRATOR IN THE NEGOTIATING ROOM, GIVEN THAT PUTIN THINKS THAT THIS TERRITORIAL GAIN IS GOING TO BE LEVERAGED AHEAD OF THIS SUMMIT.

>> YOU SEE, ONE RUSSIAN FUTURE IS THEIR CONSISTENCY.

AND TO SOME EXTENT, THEY ARE EVEN BORING PLAY BY THE SAME PLAYBOOK.

IN 2015, WITH NEGOTIATIONS IN THE BACKGROUND, RUSSIA WAS FIERCELY STORMING UKRAINIAN CITY , AND MAKING THE POINT IN NEGOTIATIONS THAT UKRAINIAN FRONTLINE IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE.

US PUTTING PRESSURE ON GERMANY AND FRANCE AND UKRAINE TO CONCEDE MORE AND MORE TO THAT.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

I AM MORE THAN CERTAIN YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO SUGGEST THAT PUTIN WILL BE MAKING THIS POINT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP TOMORROW , THAT THE UKRAINIAN FRONTLINE IS COLLAPSING, LOOK HOW HIS ARMY IS BREAKING THROUGH.

SO, THE TRUTH --THE TRUTH IS THAT PUTIN ALWAYS PRETENDS TO BE STRONGER THAN HE ACTUALLY IS.

AND THIS MUST BE ON THE SPEAKING POINTS OF THE OTHER -- OF THE OTHER SIDE, WHICH IS THE UNITED STATES IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

PRETENDS.

HE HAS WEAKNESSES , AND THESE WEAKNESSES CAN AND SHOULD BE EXPLOITED.

>> AND LASTLY, WE'VE GOT 20 SECONDS, DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOW GOT A CLEARER PICTURE , DIFFERENT TO WHAT HE WAS SAYING IN FEBRUARY, YOU KNOW, BLAMING UKRAINE, CALLING UKRAINE THE VILLAIN AND NOT RUSSIA?

>> I BELIEVE HE HAS THE PICTURE, BUT WHAT I DON'T KNOW IS HOW TO NUDGE HIM TO MAKE THE FINAL MOVE , FROM THREATENING PRESSURE TO PUTTING PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT, THERE WILL BE NO PROGRESS MADE.

>> FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER KULEBA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND OUT TO THE OTHER BIG WAR, THE ONE RAGING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

MORE THAN 100 MANAGER AND ORGANIZATIONS HAVE SIGNED A JOINT LETTER URGING AN END TO WHAT THEY CALL ISRAEL'S WEAPONIZATION OF A AS A STARVATION CRISIS CONTINUES TO SINCE MARCH 2nd, WHEN ISRAEL IMPOSED A BLOCKADE ON ALL HUMANITARIAN AID, MORE THAN 20,000 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ADMITTED FOR TREATMENT FOR ACUTE MALNUTRITION.

ACCORDING TO THE IPC, A GLOBAL CONSORTIUM OF FOOD ORGANIZATIONS, DOZENS OF CHILDREN AND OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DIED OF STARVATION, ACCORDING TO AUTHORITIES IN GAZA.

AND AS THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT EXPANDS ITS MILITARY CAMPAIGN, ISRAELI HOSTAGE FAMILIES ARE SPEAKING OUT, DEMANDING AN END TO WHAT THEY CALL AN ENDLESS WAR WITHOUT PURPOSE OR GOAL.

AMIDST THE TRAUMA AND PAIN, THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO FIGHT FOR A PEACEFUL FUTURE, INCLUDING MY NEXT GUEST, FORMER HIGH-LEVEL ISRAELI AIR FORCE GENERAL, AN OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF THE GAZA WAR, NOW RUNNING FOR THE KNESSET FOR THE DEMOCRATS AS CENTERLEFT PARTY.

AND THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE PRINCIPLES OF PEACE ORGANIZATION.

THEY JOINED US EARLIER.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS REALLY INTERESTING TO HAVE YOU BOTH.

ONE OF YOU IS ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

AND YOU ARE IN ISRAEL ITSELF, YET YOU HAVE COME TOGETHER AND YOU ARE AMONGST A VERY INTERESTING NEW GROUP COMMITTED TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT A WAY FORWARD.

CAN I ASK YOU FIRST TO EXPLAIN WHY AND HOW YOU GOT HERE.

YOU WERE BORN ON THE WEST BANK, YOUR BOYFRIEND WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY THE IDF IN 2000, AND YOU HAVE LEFT IN ORDER TO STUDY PEACE BUILDING, AND NIMROD, YOU ARE THE SON OF TWO HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, AND YOU HAVE SERVED YEARS IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY, BECOMING THE SECOND IN COMMAND OF THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE.

SO, HIBA FIRST, WHAT ABOUT THIS ORIGIN STORY MAKE YOU DO WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO NOW, THIS TIME OF ALL TIMES QUESTION >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE , FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

I THINK I CAN SAY, LIKE MANY PALESTINIANS AND INCIDENTALLY , ALSO MANY ISRAELIS, WE ARE SHAPED BY THIS CONFLICT WITH THE REALITY OF OCCUPATION AND INSECURITY, AND FOR ME, I GREW UP IN THE WEST BANK, I'M A CHILD OF THE FIRST INTIFADA ], I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS MEANT TO HAVE LOST, BUT ALSO TO LIVE UNDER INSECURITY.

AND FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, I DEDICATED MY CAREER TO STUDYING CONFLICT, WORKING AROUND THE WORLD ON CONFLICT PREVENTION AND PEACE BUILDING, BECAUSE I REALLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO STOP VIOLENCE, AND WHAT THIS PIECE NEEDS TO DELIVER TO TAKE HOLD, AND OF COURSE, THIS MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN IS A VERY DANGEROUS MOMENT, BECAUSE THERE IS A VERY STRONG SENSE OF EXISTENTIAL THREATS, YOU KNOW, SINCE OCTOBER 7th AND THE WAR IN GAZA AFTER YEARS OF OCCUPATION AND INSECURITY FELT AMONGST BOTH OUR PEOPLES, WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING TODAY IS TRULY TRAUMATIC.

22 MONTHS WITH THE DEVASTATION THAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA , YOU KNOW, GAZA IS LYING IN RUINS AND THE POPULATION IS DISPLACED.

WE ARE WITNESSING STARVATION, UM, AND WITH ALL OF THAT, HOSTAGES REMAIN IN CAPTIVITY.

AND WE ARE SEEING THAT WE ARE ON A CROSSROADS .

WE ARE EITHER GOING TO GO INTO A CONTINUOUS CASE OF PERPETUAL WAR AND A GENERATION OF TRAUMA AND LOSS , OR WE NEED TO CHOOSE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO, I'M CHOOSING TO BE AMONGST PRAGMATIC PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS WHO SEE THE NECESSITY AND IMPERATIVE TO FORGE A DIFFERENT KIND OF PATH, A PATH OF SAFETY AND SECURITY , OF DIGNITY, AND AN END TO THE OCCUPATION.

AND A PATH THAT WILL GET US OUT OF THIS SITUATION THAT WE ARE IN.

>> SO, NIMROD, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HEARD HIBA SAY BOTH OF OUR PEOPLES IS AN EXISTENTIAL SITUATION.

TO THE OTHER SIDE DO YOU FEEL THAT AS WELL?

AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR HISTORY, BOTH PERSONAL AND MILITARY, HAS BROUGHT YOU TO THIS MOMENT, AND WHAT CONVINCES YOU THAT THIS IS A MOMENT OF POSSIBILITY?

>> OKAY, THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION AND FOR HAVING ME.

WHAT BROUGHT ME HERE AND TO GET TO KNOW HIBA AND WORK TOGETHER WITH HER STARTED WITH A KIND OF DEEP FEAR THAT I FELT THAT I MIGHT LEAVE TO MY CHILDREN A WORSE PLACE THAN I INHERITED FROM MY PARENTS .

AS YOU SAID, CHRISTIANE , THEY ARE HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS.

AND STARTING WITH THAT, I TRIED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I LEARNED IN MY MILITARY SERVICE, AND I HAVE A VERY BIG BELIEF THAT STRUGGLES AND CONFLICTS CAN BE SOLVED, MUST BE SOLVED, AND CAN BE SOLVED, AND TOGETHER, BOTH THINGS I BROUGHT TO THE PLACE WHEN I SAID, OKAY, I MUST BE ACTIVE IN THAT, BECAUSE AS A MILITARY PERSON, YOU ARE ACTIVE IN DEFENDING YOUR COUNTRY, BUT YOU AREN'T NECESSARILY ACTIVE IN SERVING CONFLICTS.

BUT WHEN I MET WITH HIBA, I SAID OKAY, I THINK IF WE WORK TOGETHER, WE CAN DO SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE CONFLICT, NOT ONLY TO LIVE THROUGH IT, I DON'T BELIEVE IN CONTAINING CONFLICT FOR A LONG TIME, BECAUSE IT'S A LOT OF SUFFERING .

AND SO, TOGETHER, I THINK WE ARE IN A PLACE AND A POINT THAT WE BELIEVE WE CAN TRY AND END BELIEVE WE CAN TRY AND END SOMETHING TO SOLVING THAT HARD CONFLICT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THE BRUTAL, HARD FACTS.

THERE SEEMS TO BE NO PUBLIC SUPPORT, CERTAINLY NOT IN ISRAEL, AND NO LONGER REALLY AMONGST PALESTINIANS FOR A TWO STATE SOLUTION OR FOR THE BELIEF THAT THE PIECE CAN'T IS EVEN ON LIFE SUPPORT, MUCH LESS DEAD.

I MEAN, THERE IS NO --THERE IS NO CONSTITUENCY, IS THERE, IN ISRAEL, NIMROD?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION BUT I THINK THAT WHAT IS NEW TO ME AND I BELIEVE FOR MANY, MANY PEOPLE IS THE NECESSITY TO BRING IN ALL THE REGION.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CRAFT A REGIONAL AGREEMENT, STRATEGIC AGREEMENT THAT WILL DEAL WITH ALL THE ISSUES THAT ARE VERY MUCH IMPORTANT TO SOLVING THE CONFLICT, AND WE NEED THE ORIGINAL PARTNERS WE HAVE, AND WE HAVE A LOT.

WE NEED OUR PARTNERS FROM EUROPE, FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM OTHER PLACES TO BE ON BOARD WITH US TO SOLVE THE CONFLICT, BECAUSE THE CONFLICT IS NOT ONLY AN ISSUE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

AND I THINK THERE IS A MAJORITY IN ISRAEL THAT SAY, OKAY, IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF A REGIONAL AGREEMENT --STRATEGIC AGREEMENT, WE CAN SEE HOW WE HAVE A KIND OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS AMONG THE OTHER PARTNERS IN THE KIND OF I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, A BILATERAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, AS YOU SAID, IS FAR-FETCHED, AND WE CAN HARDLY BELIEVE IT CAN BE DONE, BUT WITH THE SUPPORT OF SAUDI ARABIA, EGYPTIANS, JORDAN, UNITED STATES, OUR EUROPEAN FRIENDS, WHEN YOU BRING ALL OF THEM ON BOARD AND THEY ARE WILLING TO COME ON BOARD TO HELP US SOLVE THIS ISSUE, I BELIEVE IT IS POSSIBLE.

>> OKAY.

AND HIBA, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IS THERE A CONSENSUS AMONGST THE PALESTINIANS?

BECAUSE THEY, TOO, OVER THE YEARS HAVE , I THINK, CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, I HAVE SEEN EVERY PEACE PROCESS.

THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SAY YES TO GOOD PROPOSALS FROM THE ISRAELIS BACKED BY THE U.S., AND THIS ENDLESS WAR AND THESE ENDLESS SETTLEMENTS AND THESE ENDLESS OBSTACLES TO PEACE.

AS YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE , YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCE OF PALESTINIANS, I MEAN, WE TALK A LOT ABOUT GAZA, BUT I HAVE BEEN HERE NOW ALSO ON THE WEST BANK, AND SPEAKING WITH PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT SECTORS, FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, AMONGST THE LEADERSHIP, BUT ALSO THE CIVIL SOCIETY, THE LIVED REALITY OF PEOPLE, IT'S VERY HARD FOR THEM TO ENVISION A DIFFERENT KIND OF FUTURE, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SETTLER VIOLENCE, SETTLEMENT EXPANSION, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RHETORIC BETWEEN THE COMPLETE ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK, AND JUST TRAVELING ON THE ROAD , YOU CAN SEE ALL OF THESE , YOU KNOW, POP UP KIND OF SETTLEMENTS WHERE YOU HAD AN ISRAELI SETTLER WHO BRINGS A FEW GOATS AND SHEEP AND HE JUST TAKES A WHOLE HILL, AN ACREAGE, AND PREVENTS FARMERS FROM GOING THERE.

SO, YES, THERE HAS BEEN A LOSS OF HOPE AROUND THE PROSPECTS OF A POLITICAL SOLUTION, THE REALITY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, THE LATEST POLLING ISSUING A RECORD NUMBER OF SUPPORT IN GAZA, OF A TWO STATE SOLUTION.

OVERWHELMING DESIRE FOR SEPARATION AMONGST PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS, AND THIS IS SOMETHING I HEAR AS WELL AMONGST OUR COALITION MEMBERS IN [ INAUDIBLE ], WHICH BRINGS AROUND 450 ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN LEADERS.

THERE IS A DESIRE AND IMPERATIVE FOR SEPARATION BETWEEN THE TWO PEOPLE.

THERE IS A HIGH LEVEL OF TRAUMA, AND FOR PALESTINIANS, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA IS ANOTHER NAKBA, SO PEOPLE ARE VERY TRAUMATIZED, BUT NOW IS THE TIME TO SEE A DIFFERENT KIND OF FUTURE.

AND I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT THAT IN THE DIFFERENT POLLING WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING AND OUR PARTNERS HAVE BEEN DOING, WE HAVE BEEN SEEING AS MUCH AS -- A VERY BAD PICTURE OF POLARIZATION AND PUBLIC OPINION.

WE HAVE SEEN SOMETHING NIMROD TALKED ABOUT ALREADY.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A TWO STATE SOLUTION IN ISRAEL, YOU GET LESS THAN 40%.

BUT WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL AND SECURITY FRAMEWORK AND A NON-MILITARIZED PALESTINIAN STATE AS PART OF THAT FRAMEWORK, THEN THE SUPPORT GOES UP TO OVER 57%.

SO, THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY THAT IS BRINGING US TOGETHER, NOT AS A TRADITIONAL PEACE CAMP, BUT AS A COALITION OF ENLIGHTENED SELF INTEREST, A COALITION THAT BRINGS FOLKS WHO BELIEVE IN REALPOLITIK AND ARE DOING IT ALSO FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, AND RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS A DESIRE FOR SEPARATION, AND THAT A POLITICAL SOLUTION IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BREAK THIS CONTAINMENT TRAP AND THE SITUATION WHERE WE KEEP C THIS PERPETUAL WAR, THIS GENERATIONAL TRAUMA GOING FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE OTHER.

>> AND NIMROD, A SIMILAR QUESTION TO YOU, BECAUSE AS TRAUMATIZED AS THE PALESTINIANS ARE ON THIS BEING A SECOND NAKBA, 75 YEARS AFTER THE FIRST ONE, ISRAEL , I HAVE BEEN HEARING OVER AND OVER AGAIN FROM PEOPLE WHO I INTERVIEW, IS NOT IN A POSTTRAUMATIC SITUATION AFTER OCTOBER 7th, IT IS IN A TRAUMATIC SITUATION AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

YOU, THOUGH, WROTE A LETTER WITH A LOT OF OTHER MILITARY TO GET THE GOVERNMENT TO STOP THIS WAR.

ON THE OTHER HAND, AS YOU ALSO KNOW, THE VERY HARD-LINE RIGHT- WING NATIONALIST WANT TO BURY ANY IDEA OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

SO, FOR YOU, DO YOU THINK -- YOU KNOW, THIS FUTURE A.M. HAS TO START WITH THE END OF THE WAR, AND HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?

>> OH, YEAH, I THINK THAT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS VERY CLEAR.

WE NEED FIRST TO STOP THE WAR, NOT BECAUSE SOME REASONS THAT YOU KIND OF DESCRIBE, BUT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SERVE NATIONAL SECURITY OR THE STATE OF ISRAEL FIRST.

THIS IS THE FIRST CAUSE, WHY WE NEED TO STOP THE WAR NOW, IT WAS A VERY BRIGHT WAR.

ON OCTOBER 7th, WHEN WE DECLARED THE WAR AND WE STARTED THE WAR, IT WAS A NECESSITY.

WE HAD TO DEFEND THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ITS CITIZENS.

AND FOR ABOUT SIX, NINE, OR 10 MONTHS, IT WAS THE ONLY THING WE COULD DO, WE HAD TO FIGHT HAMAS BY ALL MEANS TO BRING BACK SECURITY AND SAFETY TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND CITIZENS.

BUT SINCE ABOUT A YEAR AND MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE, UM, WHEN THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE DECLARED THAT HAMAS IS NO LONGER --EXISTS AS A MILITARY FORCE, AND THEN THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE SAID EXACTLY THE SAME, SINCE THAT POINT, THE WAR DOESN'T SERVE THE SECURITY AND SAFETY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL ANY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PRICES.

THE HOSTAGES ARE STILL THERE, ISRAELI SOLDIERS ARE GETTING KILLED, PALESTINIAN CITIZENS ARE GETTING KILLED, AND WE CANNOT START AND REBUILD OUR SAFETY AND SECURITY.

AND I THINK THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THE WAR SHOULD BE STOPPED NOW.

AND MANY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LONG TERM.

THIS IS A SHORT-TERM SOLUTION.

WE MUST START FROM A POINT WHERE WE STOP THE WAR, BRING BACK EVERYBODY HOME, AND START REBUILDING.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY LONG PROCESS IN BOTH SIDES, EVEN IN ISRAEL.

AND THEN WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO ME ABOUT THE SOLUTION, WHEN I SOLUTION, I THINK FIRST ABOUT THE STATE OF ISRAEL, MY FRIENDS, MY PEOPLE, AND I SAY TO MYSELF, LOOK, IF YOU WANT TO LIVE HERE IN SAFETY AND SECURITY, YOU MUST SEPARATE FROM ANOTHER PEOPLE, THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE.

WE, I THINK LIVING TOGETHER IS REALLY A KIND OF A WAY WE WON'T BE ABLE TO SUPPORT AND SUSTAIN, AND REALITY SHOWS THAT, AND I BELIEVE WE MUST LOOK AND STRIVE FOR A SOLUTION , FIRST OF ALL, WE MAKE THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS SAFER AND BETTER PLACE TO LIVE.

I BELIEVE BY THAT, IT IS GOING TO GIVE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ALSO THE CHANCE TO BUILD A BETTER AND A MUCH BETTER PLACE FOR THEM TO LIVE.

BUT WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, AGAIN, THE SHORT-TERM, WE MUST STOP THE WAR.

AND I SAY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN TO MY GOVERNMENT AND I PROTEST AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT TIME AND AGAIN ON THE STREETS , IT'S NOT A SECRET.

ISRAEL SHOULD STOP THE WAR, AND THEN START THINKING ABOUT A LONG-TERM SOLUTION.

IT'S JUST A QUICK QUESTION BEFORE I GO TO HIBA BUT AS YOU KNOW, YOUR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAYING TO ALL THESE WESTERN STATES, AND A LOT OF COUNTRIES ARE SAYING THEY WILL ORGANIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE AND HE SAYS THAT IS JUST A REWARD FOR TERRORIST, A REWARD FOR HAMAS.

DID YOU THINK HAMAS WINS OR LOSES THERE IS AN ACTUAL TWO STATE SOLUTION, NIMROD?

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL, CHRISTIANE , THAT THE STATE OF ISRAEL WILL BENEFIT FROM A SOLUTION BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, BECAUSE WE ARE RUNNING THIS CONFLICT FOR SO MANY DECADES.

AND YOU KNOW, WHEN OUR ANCESTORS BUILT THE STATE OF ISRAEL, THEY DIDN'T NEED TO BUILD A STATE THAT WILL FIGHT FOREVER.

SO, I DON'T THINK, AND HIBA WILL FORGIVE ME, I DON'T THINK ABOUT PALESTINIANS AT THE MOMENT, I THINK ABOUT THE ISRAELIS, AND I THINK THAT I SHOULD DO WHATEVER I CAN FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ITS CITIZENS.

THE FIRST THING THAT I CAN DO IS TRYING THE BEST I CAN TO STOP THE WAR AND BUILD AS I CAN WITHOUT WARDS.

IF THAT IS A NECESSITY, WE KNOW HOW TO FIGHT AND WE CAN.

BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THE STATE OF ISRAEL, I LOOK BACK AT MY PEOPLE, I THINK THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO A CONSTANT STATE OF WAR, WE CANNOT EVER BE THE STATE OUR ANCESTORS MEANT WHEN THEY BUILT ISRAEL.

THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE WE'VE GOT FIRST TO STOP THE WAR.

BUT BECAUSE I AM NOT CYNICAL, HIBA, AND YOU WILL FORGIVE ME, NOT BECAUSE OF THE PALESTINIANS FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE OF THE ISRAELIS, BUT I THINK SUFFERING SHOULD BE ENDED ON BOTH SIDES.

AND I DON'T THINK IT IS A PRIZE FOR TERRORIST, IT IS A PRIZE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON BOTH SIDES, FIRST TO MY PEOPLE, THEN TO HIBA'S.

>> HIBA, NIMROD SAID HE WILL FORGIVE HIM FOR PRIORITIZING HIS OWN PEOPLE.

HE WILL PRESUMABLY FORGIVE YOU FOR PRIORITIZING YOUR OWN PEOPLE, SO WHAT DOES THE SECURITY, DIGNITY, SOVEREIGNTY OF THE PALESTINIANS DEPEND ON?

AND I KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A LETTER THAT YOU HELPED CRAFT BY THE CURRENT P.A.

PRESIDENT ABOUT THE CHANGE THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITHIN YOUR OWN PALESTINIAN POLITICAL BODIES IN ORDER TO MOVE THIS PROSPECT FORWARD.

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT OUR POSITION AS WELL ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE IS A CLEAR ONE.

THE ONLY WAY THAT OUR PEOPLE CAN LIVE IN DIGNITY AND REALIZE THEIR SELF- DETERMINATION AND LIVE ALSO IN SAFETY AND SECURITY, BECAUSE WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE TODAY, PALESTINIANS DO NOT LIVE IN SAFETY AND SECURITY.

THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE THAT IS ACTUALLY TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE THAT LIVES IN PEACE AND SECURITY NEXT TO ITS NEIGHBOR, INCLUDING THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

SO, I THINK THERE IS NOTHING WRONG TO SAY THAT WE ARE DOING IT FOR OUR OWN PEOPLE.

THIS IS WHAT I MET WITH SUB INTERESTS AND BEING PRAGMATIC.

NOW, THE PRESIDENT ADDRESSED TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WHICH IS A COLLECTIVE EFFORT OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND THEY HAVE CRAFTED IT, I THINK TO ADDRESS SOME KEY ISSUES, I THINK IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT IS A SIGNAL THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE AND IS PUTTING SOME EFFORTS FORWARD, WHICH GIVE US AN ENTRY POINT.

HE CONDEMNED OCTOBER 7th AND CALLED FOR THE RELEASE OF ALL HOSTAGES.

THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING A FUTURE GOVERNANCE IN GAZA WITHOUT HAMAS.

THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT AND THEY HAVE AGREED WITH INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT AND PROVIDING THAT KIND OF SECURITY GUARANTEES, AND AS WELL AS REGIONAL ENGAGEMENT, WHICH I THINK IS ALSO A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF A SOLUTION, OF A NON-MILITARIZED PALESTINIAN STATE LIVING IN SAFETY AND SECURITY WITH ISRAEL, AND I THINK WE ARE AT THE STRATEGIC MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY TODAY.

>> NIMROD SHEFFER AND HIBA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, VERY INTERESTING.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE .

>>> NOW TO TEXAS WHERE A NEW REDISTRICTING PLAN BACKED BY REPUBLICANS IS CAUSING A POLITICAL STANDOFF.

CRITICS ACCUSED THEM OF A PARTISAN POWER GRAB AS THEY LOOK TO GERRYMANDER MORE SAFE SEATS OUT OF THE NEXT ELECTION.

SO, DEMOCRATS, MANY OF WHOM LEFT THE STATE IN AN ATTEMPT TO STALL THIS PROPOSAL, STATE REPRESENTATIVE JAMES JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE .

REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, YOU HAVE GOT THE TEXAS FLAG BEHIND YOU, BUT YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY IN TEXAS, DO YOU MIND TELLING US WHERE YOU ARE QUESTION >> WE ARE IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, WE ARE TRYING TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE OF SECURITY CONCERNS, AS I'M SURE YOU HAVE REPORTED.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THREATENED TO SEND THE FBI TO COME FIND US.

GOVERNOR ADDED HAS THREATENED TO REMOVE US FROM OUR DULY ELECTED POSITIONS IN LEGISLATURE, AND KEN PAXTON, OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL IN TEXAS, SENT OUT A TWEET TO HIS THOUSANDS OF FOLLOWERS, ASKING THEM TO "HUNT US DOWN."

AND SO, BECAUSE OF ALL OF THAT, WE HAVE RECEIVED A LOT OF THREATS, INCLUDING MULTIPLE BOMB THREATS.

I HEARD THAT THERE WERE BOMB THREATS AT THE PLACE THAT YOU WERE STAYING.

SO, WHEN DID THE IDEA OF BREAKING QUORUM, OF LEAVING THE STATE IN ORDER TO DENY THE REPUBLICANS OF QUORUM FIRST EMERGED, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, IT WAS WHEN WE FIRST STARTED SEEING REPORTING THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS GOING TO ASK TEXAS REPUBLICANS TO REDRAW OUR POLITICAL MAPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DECADE.

TYPICALLY, THIS IS DONE AT THE BEGINNING OF A DECADE AFTER A NEW CENSUS, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN TEXAS IN 2021.

AND ONCE WE HEARD THAT THEY MAY TRY TO RIG THESE MAPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME, SO THAT THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE TO FACE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE MIDTERMS, WE KNEW WE MAY HAVE TO TAKE SOME DRAMATIC ACTIONS TO PROTECT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, NOT JUST IN TEXAS, BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND SO, WE ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR JUST DEMOCRATS, WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENT 'S AND REPUBLICANS AS WELL.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE PEOPLE, ALL OF US, CAN CHANGE OUR GOVERNMENT FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

WHETHER WE CAN HOLD POWERFUL PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN THE COUNTRY, ACCOUNTABLE.

>> THIS IS AN EXACTLY EASY, YOU KNOW QUESTION MARK YOU HAVE GOT TO LEAVE WHATEVER JOB YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE TEXAS LEGISLATURE IS NOT FULL-TIME, SO YOU HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO, YOU HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS.

IT IS NOT EASY ON PEOPLE'S LIVES.

SO, I JUST WAS CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT WERE SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD IN THE CAUCUS ABOUT , YOU KNOW, WHETHER THIS WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO OR NOT?

>> YEAH, IT WAS CERTAINLY NOT A DECISION WE MADE LIGHTLY.

AS YOU MENTIONED, MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE LEAVING BEHIND YOUNG CHILDREN, SOME OF THEM ARE LEAVING BEHIND AGING PARENTS, WE ARE ALL LEAVING BEHIND OUR DAY JOBS, WHICH IS HOW WE MAKE ENDS MEET AND PAY OUR BILLS, BUT WE KNOW THAT THIS IS A LOT BIGGER THAN US.

IT IS A LOT BIGGER THAN ANY ONE POLITICIAN OR ANY POLITICAL PARTY.

PEOPLE CAN ELECT REPRESENTATIVES OF THEIR CHOICE, WHICH IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PART OF THIS REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

AND SO, WE FELT LIKE WE HAD TO TAKE A STAND, THANKFULLY, WE OVER THE PAST WEEK, I THINK, I REALLY FOCUSED THE COUNTRY'S ATTENTION ON THIS POWER GRAB IN TEXAS.

I KNOW THAT THE GOOGLE SEARCHES FOR GERRYMANDERING AND REDISTRICTING ARE THROUGH THE ROOF, WHICH YOU KNOW, AS A FORMER TEACHER, THAT MAKES MY HEART HAPPY THAT PEOPLE ARE USING THIS OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN ABOUT OUR BROKEN POLITICAL SYSTEM, AND HOPEFULLY IT SPARKS A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO FIX THIS DEMOCRACY GOING FORWARD, SO THAT IT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY.

>> THE REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THEY CONTROL ALL THE TOP STATE OFFICES, YOU KNOW, SENATORS, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE GOVERNOR, ET CETERA, AND BOTH HOUSES OF THE LEGISLATURE, OKAY?

BUT IN 2021, DEMOCRATS DID THE SAME THING TO DENY REPUBLICANS A QUORUM , THAT WAS NOT PERCEIVED AS A SUCCESS.

DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

I MEAN, THE BILL THAT YOU WERE TRYING TO STOP PAST ANYWAY.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, I WOULDN'T DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT, THAT ANALYSIS.

WHEN WE BROKE QUORUM IN 2021, IT WAS OVER A VOTER SUPPRESSION BILL.

AND I SHOULD SAY THIS QUORUM THEY AND THAT WERE ON BREAK, THOSE ARE THE ONLY QUORUM BREAKS IN 20 YEARS IN TEXAS, SO THIS IS NOT A COMMON OCCURRENCE.

AS OF THE TREMENDOUS COST, FINANCIAL, PERSONAL, POLITICAL, LEGAL, IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE UNDERGONE WITHOUT A LOT OF THOUGHT, AND WITHOUT A LOT OF JUSTIFICATION.

IT IS AN EXTREME TOOL THAT THE MINORITY HAS IN OUR TOOLBOX, AND IT IS PROTECTED AT THE TEXAS STATE CONSTITUTION.

AND SO, WE ARE NOT BREAKING LAWS, WE ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT IS NOT IN THE HOUSE RULES.

THAT'S WHY IT IS SO STRANGE THAT PEOPLE ARE THREATENING US WITH THE REST AND WITH VACATING OUR SEATS, BECAUSE THERE IS A LONG TRADITION IN TEXAS AND IN AMERICA WHERE HERE IN THE LAND OF LINCOLN, ABE LINCOLN BROKE QUORUM AS A STATE SENATOR BACK IN 1840 BY JUMPING OUT OF THE WINDOW AT THE ILLINOIS STATE CAPITAL.

SO, THIS IS A TIME HONORED TRADITION AND IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE UNDERGO LIGHTLY.

AND SO, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THAT LAST QUORUM BREAK IN 2021 OVER THE VOTER SUPPRESSION BILL, WELL IT DIDN'T KILL THE BILL, IT DID PUT A NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT ON THE ISSUE, WHICH PRESSURED OUR REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES TO TAKE THE WORST PARTS OUT OF THAT BILL.

A BAN ON [ INAUDIBLE ], WHICH IS SUNDAY MORNING VOTING BUT A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN CHURCHES TAKE THEIR MEMBERS TO HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD IN A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, THAT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BILL.

A PROVISION THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED REPUBLICANS IN OUR STATE OVERTURN ELECTION RESULTS THAT THEY DO NOT LIKE, THAT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BILL, ALL BECAUSE OF OUR QUORUM BREAK AND THE ATTENTION THAT IT GALVANIZED ACROSS THE NATION.

>> YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR IS STARTING TO TRY TO FIND A WAY TO VACATE YOUR SEATS, SO THAT HE CAN THEN APPOINT PEOPLE TO REPLACE YOU.

YOU KNOW, CALLING ON FBI, WHICH CONTROL NOW, TO GO AND BRING YOU AND, AS IT WERE.

THERE IS TALKING ABOUT DEPUTIZING , YOU KNOW, THE TEXAS RANGERS TO SOMEHOW CROSS STATE LINES, WHICH THEY DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO AT PRESENT, AND THEN THEY ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT --I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD WORK, BUT CHARGING YOU WITH BRIBERY IF YOU USE ANY CAMPAIGN FUNDS TO SUBSIDIZE THE COST OF THIS -- OF THIS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF EXPERIENCE.

DO ANY OF THOSE, IN YOUR ESTIMATION , HAVE ANY LEGAL FORCE AT ALL?

>> NO, AND I'M NOT A LAWYER, I AM A FORMER PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER, BUT I HAVE GOT A LOT OF COLLEAGUES WHO ARE VERY TALENTED LAWYERS, AND WE HAVE BROUGHT ON A TEAM OF LAWYERS TO HELP US, GIVEN THESE THREATS BUT ALL OF THEM AGREE THAT THE THEORIES UNDER PENDING THESE THREATS ARE LAUGHABLE.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WON'T SUCCEED.

POLITICIZED, ESPECIALLY IN TEXAS.

AND SO, WE WILL SEE IF IT WORKS, BUT IF WE ARE JUST GOING BY RULE OF LAW, YOU KNOW, I THINK THESE SHOULD BE LAUGHED OUT OF COURT.

AND I THINK IT IS EQUALLY LAUGHABLE THAT KEN PAXTON , THE MOST CORRUPT POLITICIAN IN TEXAS, PERHAPS THE MOST CORRUPT POLITICIAN IN THE COUNTRY, IS ACCUSING US OF BRIBERY WHEN HE WAS LITERALLY IMPEACHED ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS IN THE TEXAS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FOR HIS CORRUPTION AND FOR ENRICHING HIMSELF AND HIS DONORS .

SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS HYPOCRISY AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

AND YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT THIS REDISTRICTING ATTEMPT, THIS POWER GRAB IS CORRUPT, TOO.

WE OFTENTIMES THINK OF CORRUPTION IS JUST INVOLVING MONEY.

THAT IS CERTAINLY ONE KIND OF CORRUPTION, BUT CORRUPTION IS THE ABUSE OF POWER.

IT IS THE BETRAYAL OF THE PUBLIC TRUST.

AND THIS IS CORRUPTION AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

SO, TALK ABOUT THE MAPS THEM, IT IS NOT EXACTLY A SECRET WHAT THEIR OBJECTIVE IS THE OBJECTIVE IS AT THE REQUEST OF THE PRESIDENT, HE WAS VERY REDRAW THE LINES TO GIVE REPUBLICANS THE ADVANTAGE, OR SO THEY BELIEVE, IN FIVE ADDITIONAL SEATS.

AND THAT WOULD MEAN CONSOLIDATING SEATS THAT ARE CURRENTLY HELD BY DEMOCRATS OR JUST BASICALLY REDRAWING THE LINES, AND EVEN THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED THAT YOU CAN'T REDISTRICT ALONG RACIAL LINES.

THEIR ARGUMENT IS THIS ISN'T RACIAL AT ALL.

THIS IS PARTISAN.

AND THAT THAT IS PERFECTLY ALLOWED.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, ONE, I WOULD DISAGREE THAT THIS IS NOT RACIAL GERRYMANDERING.

YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THESE MAPS AND THE COMMUNITIES THEY DIVIDE, THE VOICES THEY DILUTE, IT IS PRIMARILY BLACK AND BROWN.

IT IS AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES AND IT IS LATINO COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE STATE OF TEXAS, TWO GROWING POPULATIONS IN OUR STATE THAT THEY ARE DISENFRANCHISING WITH THIS RACIST AND DISCRIMINATORY GERRYMANDERING.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT HOW CRAZY IT IS THAT THEY SEEM TO BE VERY OKAY ADMITTING PUBLICLY THAT THIS IS A NAKED POLITICAL POWER GRAB.

THAT MAY BE ILLEGAL, BUT IT IS CERTAINLY NOT MORAL AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT SUPPORTED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

THERE WAS POLLING DATA RELEASED EARLIER THIS WEEK SHOWING THAT THIS POWER GRAB IN TEXAS IS WILDLY UNPOPULAR ACROSS THE STATE OF TEXAS, INCLUDING AMONG TRANS-SUPPORTERS, BECAUSE NO ONE LIKES CHEATING.

AND NO ONE LIKES RIGGING AN UPCOMING ELECTION.

PEOPLE SHOULD BE EVALUATED ON THEIR POLICIES AND THEIR RECORD.

AND IF THOSE POLICIES ARE UNPOPULAR, THEN YOU SHOULD FACE CONSEQUENCES AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, REGARDLESS OF YOUR POLITICAL PARTY.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN EMBROILED IN CORRUPTION, RECEIVING PLANES FROM A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, HE IS KICKING BILLIONS OF PEOPLE OFF THERE HEALTHCARE TO FUND BILLIONAIRES, AND THOSE POLICIES AND THOSE ACTIONS ARE UNPOPULAR.

AND AS THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE COUNTRY, HE NEEDS ACCOUNTABILITY.

HE NEEDS TO FACE CONSEQUENCES AT THE BALLOT BOX.

NOT JUST FOR ALL OF US, BUT FOR HIM, THAT WOULD MAKE HIM A BETTER PRESIDENT.

SO, EVEN IF YOU ARE A TRUMP SUPPORTER, AND FACING ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE NEXT ELECTION WILL MAKE HIM A BETTER LEADER FOR ALL OF US, AND I REGARDLESS OF HOW WE FEEL ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.

>> SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOVERNOR, GOVERNOR GREG ABBOTT, IN A NUMBER OF HIS INTERVIEWS, PARTICULARLY WITH THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA, YOU KNOW IT HAS TO BE SAID, HIS ARGUMENT IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE CHEATING BY LEAVING THE STATE.

HE SAYS A TEXAN STAYS AND FIGHTS.

AND WITH THAT, YOU ARE ADVOCATING YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, BUT IT IS ALSO THAT YOU ARE THE ONES THAT ARE NOT WILLING TO STAY AND FIGHT AND ARGUE IT OUT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WE ARE NOT RUNNING AWAY FROM A FIGHT, WE ARE RUNNING INTO A FIGHT, WE ARE RUNNING TO THE FRONT LINES OF THIS FIGHT.

AND TAKING A LOT OF RISK TO DO IT.

WE ARE THE ONES FACING THREATS, INCLUDING THREATS OF VIOLENCE, AND GREG ABBOTT IS IN HIS FANCY MANSION, SURROUNDED BY SECURITY DETAIL, SO YOU TELL ME WHO IS MORE COURAGEOUS IN THIS FIGHT.

AND I WOULD JUST SAY AGAIN, THAT WE ARE TAKING ON ALL THIS RISK, SO WE CAN FIGHT FOR THE PEOPLE.

I THINK THERE IS A STARK MORAL DIFFERENCE HERE.

GREG ABBOTT AND TEXAS REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS ARE WILLING TO DISEMPOWER THE PEOPLE OF TEXAS TO PROTECT THEIR POSITIONS.

GIVE UP OUR POSITIONS TO EMPOWER THE PEOPLE OF TEXAS.

THAT IS THE STARKEST CONTRAST THAT YOU CAN DRAW , AND I AM HAPPY TO HAVE THE PEOPLE OF OUR STATE JUDGE US ON THOSE MERITS.

>> THE OTHER ARGUMENT THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING, AND I HAVE HEARD THIS AGAIN CONSERVATIVE MEDIA, IS THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE LEFT FOR STATES THAT ARE THEMSELVES --HAVE BEEN GERRYMANDERED.

THAT HAVE A HISTORIC --THERE IS A HISTORIC PRESIDENT AND MANY OF THESE STATES FOR SUBSTANTIALLY GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS , WHICH HAPPEN TO FAVOR DEMOCRATS.

SO, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I HAVE CONDEMNED THOSE MAPS, INCLUDING THE ONE HERE IN ILLINOIS.

GERRYMANDERING IS WRONG, WHICHEVER PARTY DOES IT, IN WHICHEVER PART OF THE COUNTRY IT IS DONE.

WE HAVE TO GET GERRYMANDERING OUT OF OUR POLITICS.

AND YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS WHO MAY HAVE THE MAJORITY, THEY TRIED TO PASS A BAN ON GERRYMANDERING FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY, IN RED STATES AND BLUE STATES, AND EVERY VOTED AGAINST THAT BAND.

BUT GERRYMANDERING IS A BIPARTISAN PROBLEM AND IT HAS TO END ALL I WANT TO SAY IS WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IN TEXAS IS A WHOLE OTHER LEVEL OF CORRUPTION AND BREAKING OF THE SYSTEM THAT IS BEING DONE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DECADE AND IT IS BEING DONE AT THE DIRECT REQUEST OF THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE COUNTRY, AND IF PEOPLE CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THAT IS A LOT MORE DANGEROUS THAN TYPICAL GERRYMANDERING, THEN I THINK WE HAVE GOT WORK TO DO TO HELP PEOPLE WAKE UP TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THEIR NAME, IN THEIR GOVERNMENT BUT AS THESE POLITICIANS ARE TRYING TO PICK THEIR VOTERS INSTEAD OF VOTERS PICKING THEIR POLITICIANS.

AND IF WE WALK DOWN THAT ROAD, I WORRIED ABOUT WHERE IT LEADS.

>> AND SPEAKING OF WALKING DOWN THAT ROAD, DEMOCRATS IN SOME STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK ARE SAYING IT IS TIME TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE PIT GOVERNOR NEWSOM IN CALIFORNIA, GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL IN NEW YORK IS SAYING, OKAY, TEXAS, IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD, WE ARE GOING TO TRY TO AMEND OUR STATE CONSTITUTIONS TO DO SOMETHING SIMILAR.

AND SOME OF THEM SAY THIS WITH REGRET, BUT OTHERS SAY, YOU WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WORD IF IS VERY IMPORTANT, THIS SHOULD ONLY BE DONE IN SELF-DEFENSE.

I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY PREEMPTIVE GERRYMANDERING IN BLUE STATES.

I ONLY THINK THIS SHOULD HAPPEN IF TEXAS REPUBLICANS GO THROUGH WITH THIS POWER GRAB AND CHEAT.

BEFORE THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

IF THAT HAPPENS, THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANNOT UNILATERALLY DISARM YOU.

YOU STOP A BULLY BY STANDING UP TO THEM, BY LOOKING THEM RIGHT IN THE EYE AND NOT BLINKING.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT DEMOCRATS NEED TO DO IF THE POLICE GO FORWARD WITH THEIR PLAN IN TEXAS.

>> AND YOU HAVE ACTUALLY INTRODUCED AN INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING BILL IN EVERY SESSION SINCE 2021, AND I'M JUST WONDERING, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IDEA DOESN'T HAVE MORE APPEAL?

>> BECAUSE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OF PARTY, IT IS AN ISSUE OF POWER.

THE PEOPLE IN POWER WANT TO HOLD ONTO POWER, IT IS THE TALE AS OLD AS TIME.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE WAYS THEY DO IT, BY GERRYMANDERING.

AGAIN, IN BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES, THEY DRAW THESE MAPS INTO THESE CRAZY SHAPES TO MANUFACTURE THE OUT COME THEY WANT, TO INSULATE THEMSELVES FROM THE WILL OF THE PUBLIC.

AGAIN, NOTHING COULD BE MORE UN- AMERICAN, NOTHING COULD BE MORE UNDEMOCRATIC THAN THAT, AND IT IS WHAT LEADS TO EXTREMISM IN OUR POLITICS.

YOU KNOW, MY CONSTITUENTS OFTEN ASKED ME WHY WE AT THE STATE LEGISLATURE ARE FOCUSED ON FINDING SCHOOLS, MAKING NEIGHBORHOODS SAFER, EXPANDING ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE, LOWERING PROPERTY TAXES, WHY ARE WE FOCUSED ON ALL THIS CRAZY CULTURE WAS STUCK QUESTION AND I TOLD HIM REDISTRICTING, GERRYMANDERING WHEN YOU HAVE DEEP RED SEATS AND DEEP BLUE SEATS, AND THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE, YOU DON'T HAVE SWING SEATS ANYMORE, THEN ONLY COMPETITION FOR A POLITICIAN IS IN THEIR PRIMARY.

BECAUSE THE GENERAL ELECTION IS PREDETERMINED.

WHEN ONLY COMPETITION IS IN YOUR PRIMARY MEANS THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE TO PLEASE ARE THE FARTHEST, MOST EXTREME FLANK OF YOUR BASE.

TRUE FOR REPUBLICANS AND TRUE FOR A LOT OF DEMOCRATS, AND THAT IS WHY YOU SEE SUCH EXTREMISM IN OUR POLITICAL DISCOURSE.

GERRYMANDERING IS THE ROT AT POLITICAL SYSTEM AND WE HAVE TO BAN IT EVERYWHERE IN ALL STATES.

>> MY QUESTION FOR YOU AS A DEMOCRAT IS HOW ARE YOU SO SURE THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE DON'T AGREE WITH THE REPUBLICANS , THEY THINK THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS JUST FINE?

HOW DO YOU KNOW?

>> THAT MAY BE TRUE.

TEXAS GOT MORE COMPETITIVE.

I REMEMBER WHEN I GREW UP IN TEXAS, DEMOCRATS LOST STATEWIDE BY 25, 30 POINTS.

NOW WE CONSISTENTLY ONLY LOSE BY SINGLE DIGITS.

AND JOE BIDEN IN 2020 AGAINST DONALD TRUMP, IT WAS A FIVE POINT GAP IN OUR STATEMENT SO, TEXAS IS NOT THIS DEEP RED STATE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK IT IS, WE ARE MUCH MORE A PINK STATE RIGHT NOW, TRENDING TOWARD PURPLE.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT WE ARE A SMALL MINORITY IN THE TEXAS LEGISLATURE, THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT TRUE.

THE ONLY REASON WE CAN BREAK QUORUM IS BECAUSE WE ARE SUCH A LARGE MINORITY.

WE CONTROL ABOUT 42, 43% OF THE SEATS IN THE LOWER CHAMBER.

IF WE WERE A TINY MINORITY, WE COULDN'T BREAK BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T HAVE ENOUGH MEMBERS TO HOT BUSINESS ON THE FLOOR, SO I WOULD SAY, TO YOUR QUESTION, WE SHOULD ALL BE TRYING TO COMPETE FOR THESE VOTES, AND I THINK THAT IS TRUE FOR REPUBLICANS, TOO, AND I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD BE TRYING TO CHEAT IF YOU FELT LIKE YOU WERE GOING TO WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.

>> SO, WHAT WOULD VICTORY IT LOOK LIKE FOR YOU AT THE MOMENT?

DO YOU SEE ANY MOVEMENT HERE?

DO YOU SEE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT THERE MIGHT BE --I DON'T KNOW, A MEETING OF THE MINDS THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO COME HOME?

>> I MEAN, I HOPE FOR THAT, I PRAY FOR THAT, BUT I AM PLANNING --MY COLLEAGUES AND I ARE PLANNING FOR IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

ONE, I THINK THE PUBLIC BACKLASH HAS BEEN OVERWHELMING, AGAIN, ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.

SECOND, I THINK YOU ARE C THESE BLUE STATES WITH TRIFECTA'S MOVING TOWARD RETALIATION.

I AM HOPEFUL THAT THAT WILL CONVINCE MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP TO WALK BACK FROM THE BRINK.

BECAUSE WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS A NATIONAL TAKE TATT SENDING THE SPIRAL OF PARTISANSHIP.

WE DON'T WANT THAT, I DON'T THINK ANYONE WANTS THAT, I CERTAINLY DON'T.

SO, MY HOPE IS THAT ALL THIS PRESSURE FROM THE PUBLIC, FROM BLUE STATES, ALL OF IT CATALYZED BY OUR WORM BREAK, WILL PUT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND WALK US BACK FROM THE EDGE.

>> CAN YOU ENVISION A DAY WHEN PEOPLE MIGHT ACTUALLY RETURN TO SOMETHING CALLED REGULAR ORDER?

>> I DO.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, HISTORY IS A PENDULUM , AND I DO THINK 10 YEARS OF THIS TRUMPIAN POLITICS, THIS POLITICS AS BLOODSPORT, WHERE IT FEELS MORE LIKE PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING AND CIVIC DISCOURSE, I DO THINK PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF THAT.

I THINK THEY SEE THROUGH IT.

I THINK THEY ARE READY FOR SINCERITY AND HONESTY AND HOPE AGAIN.

I DO THINK THOSE TRAITS ARE GOING TO MAKE A COMEBACK, AT LEAST I HOPE SO.

>> TEXAS JAMES TALARICO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME AGAIN.

>> STANDING UP FOR THE RULES OF THE ROAD.

AND FINALLY, IN THE MIDST OF AIR STRIKES, ENDLESS KILLINGS , AND STARVATION, ONE SMALL COMFORT IS BRINGING SOME OF GAZA'S CHILDREN TOGETHER, THAT IS MUSIC.

>> [ SINGING ] >> [ APPLAUSE ] >> IT IS INCREDIBLE TO SEE THIS HAPPENING AMIDST THE RUBBLE.

THESE STUDENTS HAVE BEEN TAKING PART IN MUSIC LESSONS DELIVERED BY THE EDWARD SAEED NATIONAL CONSERVATORY OF MUSIC.

TODAY, THERE GAZA SCHOOL DOES LIE IN RUINS AND MANY OTHER CLASSMATES HAVE BEEN KILLED, BUT EVEN IN THE FACE OF SO MUCH LOSS, TEACHERS ARE CONTINUING CLASSES IN DISPLACEMENT CAMPS AND DEVASTATED BUILDINGS, GIVING SOME CHILDREN AT LEAST A CRUCIAL OUTLET FOR CREATIVITY AT A TIME OF SUCH UTTER TRAGEDY.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODNIGHT FROM LONDON.