(transition whooshing) (upbeat music) - Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour & Co." Here's what's coming up.

(transition whooshing) (Lee Jae Myung speaking Korean) - [Translator] I will uphold the mission of fully overcoming the insurrection.

- [Bianna] A pledge to unite a divided nation and a new era for South Korea.

Journalist Ken Choi joins me to discuss the election of Lee Jae Myung and what it might mean for the rest of the world too.

- Plus.

- She looks like a totally different woman now.

She also looks like she's aged 10 years in the past seven months, and she's really putting her body on the line for Alaa's freedom.

- [Bianna] On hunger strike and at Risk of death, a mother fighting for her son's freedom, a special report.

Then, "Our Dear Friends in Moscow," investigative journalist Irina Borogan and Andrei Soldatov tell me how the hopes of their generation were crushed by Vladimir Putin's regime.

And.

- I used to tell my mother, she reminds me like I was to say something like, "You know, mom, I know my worth.

The world just needs to catch up to it."

- [Bianna] Pioneering designer, Prabal Gurung, tells Tar Serena Austin about his extraordinary journey to the top of the fashion world.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - [Narrator 1] "Amanpour & Co." is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Attwood and Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, the Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poyta Programming Endowment to fight Anti-Semitism, the Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss, Mark J. Blechner, the Filomen M D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund, Charles Rosenblum, Koo and Patricia Yuen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz and Beth Rogers, and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.

Thank you.

- Welcome to the program, everyone.

I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

A martial law decree and impeachment, massive protest, and a constitutional crisis, it has been an extraordinary six months of turmoil for South Korea.

And now it seems the country is turning a corner with opposition candidate, Lee Jae Myung, winning a decisive victory in the presidential election.

The brief and disastrous move to declare martial law last December set off huge protests and ultimately ended former President Yoon Suk Yeol's career.

Now he was impeached and removed from office and faces criminal charges for abusing his power.

The election of Lee, a candidate for the Liberal Party, comes as a huge relief to many in South Korea as the country now seeks some political stability.

But he still faces a divided nation and some crucial challenges.

Chief among them, the economy relations with North Korea, healing divisions, and trade talks with the Trump administration.

Let's dig into all of this now with Ken Choi, international editor of one of South Korea's top newspapers, and he joins us now from Seoul.

Ken, thanks so much for taking the time.

Lee was expected to win.

We talked about just what a chaotic last six months it has been for the country.

Now that he has won the election, what is the takeaway among South Koreans and among journalists who have been covering this extraordinary moment in history?

- Well, actually, as you said earlier, you know, it's remarkable that Korea was able to, you know, had a very smooth transition of power, but through this election.

Actually, you know, for the past six months, Korea was in a turmoil, constitutional crisis.

And yet, you know, without any bloodshed, it was able to, you know, peacefully transfer the power by the election.

Yesterday's election, actually, you know, it was won by president, I mean the attended Lee Jae Myung, but, you know, he had just a little shy of 50% majority.

Actually the two conservative candidates, if you combine their votes, they won slightly more than President Lee Jae Myung.

This means that, you know, he, the new president must court the other 50% who didn't vote for him.

And at the moment, you know, he has almost 2/3 majority in the parliament.

So he's considered to be one of the most powerful president ever elected in the modern history.

And, you know, he needs to sort of shy away from, you know, yielding his executive powers and rather focus his policies on economy than his ideologically, you know, oriented policies.

- Yes, because he had always been viewed, in fact, many has described him as the Bernie Sanders of South Korea.

He had long been viewed as a leftist liberal.

Over the course of the last few months and years, he's moved closer to the center.

And it's notable in his acceptance and victory speech, he said, "It's time to restore our democracy, mend our broken economy, and restore national unity."

But those are both quite ambitious and challenging goals to achieve now and deal with, given what we've seen the country have to endure.

What do you think is the first he needs to focus on?

And give us some of the obstacles that are in his way.

- Well, his number one priority must be on economy.

And actually, as he sworn in, his first act as a president was to set up this, you know, emergency economic task force team.

I think, you know, it was well received by the market, but as you stated, he comes from the progressive background, so the market is sort of watching him whether he's really going to follow through what he said.

If not, the market will punish him.

And if that happens, then, you know, his presidency will be in a really, under the water.

And right now, as you know, Korea is the 12th largest economy in the world.

All his predecessors, whether they are military dictators or they were freely elected president, they all had been able to, you know, put food on the table.

And as a result, you know, most presidents had, you know, positive ratings.

And now, he has to go through the same thing.

And as you know, you know, President Trump's, you know, recent tariff issues or reassuring issues with the Chinese economy and so on, you know, there are tantamount tasks ahead of him.

And he doesn't have much experience in these geopolitical issues.

He's more domestic.

He's more focused on domestic issues.

Now, his presidency will depend on not only the domestic issues, but also all these geopolitical economic issues.

You know, actually he's surrounded by some able non-political-oriented people.

And if he is able to, you know, utilize these forces or these people's expertise, I think he will be able to weather the storm.

But I'm not sure, you know?

I think his camps just overly took over this, you know, political situation.

And I'm not sure whether they will go through with these, you know, non-politically-oriented experts in dealing with all these external issues.

- And we know that his predecessor, Yoon Suk Yeol, had closely aligned himself with the Biden administration.

Obviously, this was before this new tariff war that President Trump, incoming president, obviously, but one that the U.S. has now seen for a second time has really been determined and decisive about laying out tariff policies globally, at least, at the very least, 10% across the board.

They are mired now in the courts, but he is determined to pursue them.

3/4 of South Korea's GDP depends on trade.

Talk about the importance of the U.S.-South Korea relationship in terms of President Lee's success ahead and the fact that this is a very mercurial president he's dealing with in the United States.

How much rides on just the relationship factor alone between the two?

- Well, you know, I think he understands the importance of U.S.-Korea relationship.

And, you know, even though during his campaign, he said, you know, he will deal with Chinese accordingly.

You know, he will have good relationship with all the neighbors around us.

But, you know, again, the most important ally at the moment is United States.

And, you know, as you stated, 3/4 of Korea's trade, I mean, GDP, comes from trade.

And, you know, we have the most important ally, again, is United States.

And obviously, he will be able to court all these things.

And I think he has every intention to resolve any issues within the United States with President Trump's tariff issues, President Trump's, you know, reassuring policies, and President Trump's policies on bringing investments into the United States.

So I think, if he surrounds himself with all these able non-politically-oriented experts, I think, you know, he'll be able to get all these things done.

And obviously, and he proclaimed himself as a practical politician, not, you know, sort of hunkered down on these ideological issues.

So if he, you know, is able to go through with all these practical issues, you know, catering to the domestic issues, but, you know, be able to follow through all these market economic system, I think he has no, you know, I think he will succeed in dealing with the United States, dealing with Japan, and so on.

Maybe, you know, his biggest challenge at the moment is to resolve all these trade issues, yes, but, you know, it could be very minor issues because Korea can of offer a lot to the United States, not only on shipbuilding issues, but, you know, you know, Korea can go hand in hand with, you know, developing nuclear power plants.

And, you know, there are a whole host of other issues that United States needs Korea on its side.

And, you know, if the new president is able to sort of get all these things done, then, you know, Korea can be on the rise again, - Though we know that the tariffs, specifically as they relate to sectors like steel and automobiles will be very much felt in South Korea.

And we know the exports to the U.S. have been downed more than 8% year over year in just May alone.

And economic projections now in terms of GDP growth for this year have already declined now to 0.8%, 0.8% from 1.5%.

So there are obviously external factors, but also internal factors.

As you talked about, the domestic problems that are crippling the country and the lowest birth rate, I believe, in the world.

And South Korea holds that title right now.

What can he do on that front to restore the economic challenges and societal challenges domestically?

- Well, first of all, I think, you know, Korea has the most rigid labor laws in the world.

So even though he favored labor unions in the past and so on, but obviously, if all these, you know, rigid labor system, labor laws are hampering economic revival, I think he will hopefully, you know, he mends all these domestic labor laws that would sort of free hands to these business and corporate sectors.

So that's probably the number one issue that he has to delve into.

And as you mentioned about the birth rate, I think with the right mind, the right, you know, there are a lot of policies.

There's no left or there's no right.

And I think both sides of the ale understands this importance of reviving the birth rate.

And I think, you know, maybe actually it's on the rise again for the first time in a very long time.

So domestically, you know, this issue will probably be solved, and I don't think it will have much economic impact, you know, in the next 10 years.

As I said earlier, the most important issue for the new president is to revive the economy.

You know, the labor laws.

You know, he proclaimed that he will try to, you know, make fast investment in AI sectors.

I think it's a good move.

Obviously, Korea is, you know, powerful in semiconductors and automobiles and steels and so on, but AI, again, is one of the most important new agenda in the economic team for the upcoming economic team.

And I think he can, you know, with his enough domestic policy and manpower, I think he can overcome any obstacles in the domestic side.

- And then, of course, there's his fascinating personal story as well.

He grew up very poor.

His parents cleaned public toilets for a living.

He didn't go to school after elementary school.

He self-taught law to himself.

He worked in a sweat shop.

Almost lost part of his hand as a result of an accident there.

Tell us more about him- - Sure.

- And the activism role that he took up throughout his career.

- Well, he started his law career initially.

And then, right, he rose from, you know, almost very poor background.

But he's not really ideologically sort of, you know, brainwashed on any of that.

He didn't have the...

I mean, he may had some activist activities, but not during the college eras.

So that sort of differentiates from the previous political forces, the leftist political forces in Korea.

So that's why he claims that he's more sort of a practical center-oriented, result-oriented person.

And as he got elected as a mayor of the small town south of Seoul, and then he got elected as the governor of Gyeonggi Province, most of his policies weren't really, you know, that ideologically oriented.

He wanted to produce results.

And that showed that even though he comes from a very poor background, he wanted to sort of cater to make the poor, you know, living standard better than what it was before.

So in that light, I think, you know, he understands how the economic system works.

He understands how the government can play in making things better for the lives of the poor people.

And he's been poor and he's a result of this system that sort of brought him from third poor, you know, level or whatever, to become the president of Korea.

So I think a lot of people in Korea sort of look up to him to, that they can do whatever they want in a Korean society as long as you work hard and so on.

The only catch is that he has still, has like, you know, 12 counts of criminal charges against him that was committed before he became president.

I'm not sure how that's gonna be resolved, but that's the only lingering issues in his presidency.

And I think, I don't know how the Supreme Court will rule on this or the higher courts will rule on this issues.

But, you know, other than that, I think, and as long as he follows through what he said, I think he will have pretty bright future ahead of him.

- Yeah, he has denied those corruption charges against him, and it's yet to be seen how that will ultimately play out.

In addition to that hand injury which he sustained when he was a, a younger man, he also survived a stabbing attack as well.

So he is indeed a fighter here.

It will also be interesting to see how his policies differ from those of his predecessors as it relates to China and to North Korea.

His opponents say that he is too cozy to China.

He says that we should not be putting all of our eggs in one basket and is open to improving ties with neighboring China.

Ken Choi, we will be following all of this.

Hopefully, a bit of peace will come now for a country that has been mired in chaos over the last six months.

Thank you so much for joining us.

- Thank you very much.

- Running out of time, doctors are warning that the mother of British Egyptian human rights activist, Alaa Abd El-Fattah, is now at risk of dying.

Laila Soueif is in critical condition and receiving urgent care after returning to a full hunger strike last month.

She desperately wants the British government to intervene and help free her son who is detained in Egypt.

Nada Bashir has this report.

(Alaa Abd El-Fattah speaking in foreign language) - [Nada] This is Alaa Abd El-Fattah, a British Egyptian human rights activist and writer, seen here in his family home in Egypt back in 2011, being welcomed by friends and family shortly after his release from prison.

(Alaa Abd El-Fattah speaking in foreign language) But his freedom would be short-lived.

Alaa was arrested once again in 2013 and jailed for over five years.

He was later rearrested in September 2019 and sentenced to a further five years behind bars in 2021.

(people speaking in foreign language) He was charged with allegedly assaulting a police officer and spreading false news after sharing a Facebook post highlighted human rights abuses in Egypt's jails.

- [Protesters] Free Alaa.

Free Alaa.

- - [Nada] Alaa's detention has sparked a year's long campaign led by his family, who say he has been arbitrarily detained.

His mother, Laila Soueif, has been at the heart of the campaign.

Holding regular vigils outside Downing Street, demanding that the British Government do more to pressure Egypt's president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, to free Alaa from detention, and even embarking on a hunger strike in September when Alaa's family had expected him to be released after completing his sentence.

With some signs of progress, Laila was persuaded to shift to a partial hunger strike in March, surviving on just 200 calories a day.

But her return to a full hunger strike in May has left her in a critical condition, with doctors at London St. Thomas's Hospital now providing urgent care.

- My mom has lost like half of her body weight.

She looks like a totally different woman now.

She also looks like she's aged 10 years in the past seven months, and she's really putting her body on the line for Alaa's freedom.

- [Nada] Laila's hunger strike and gradual decline has been documented in videos filmed by the Free Alaa campaign.

- What hits me is when I actually see my body and my face.

I look at my face in the mirror, it's so different.

- [Nada] While Laila's daughters have championed her campaign for Alaa's freedom, they fear she may not have much time left.

It's a concern echoed by some law makers in Westminster who are calling on Prime Minister Keir Starmer to take urgent action.

- We think the only thing that will shift CC is direct representations from the prime minister again.

But we've tried, we've tried the carrot, now we need more of the stick.

- Well, can I thank him for raising?

- [Nada] According to Downing Street, the Prime Minister raised alerts case directly with the Egyptian president in a recent call.

- In this case, I have met Laila and given her my commitment to do everything I possibly can.

- [Nada] But as Laila's condition continues to deteriorate, campaigners are warning that a failure by the British Government to intervene could not only cost Alaa's freedom, but also his mother's life.

- She's really convinced that Alaa will be free and will be with Helen and Brighton, with his son.

She's just not sure whether she'll attend that or not.

- Nada Bashir, reporting there.

Well, Russia is still reeling after Ukraine's daring Operation Spiderweb drone attack against the country's bomber aircraft and might be about to escalate.

Today, President Trump said he spoke by phone with Russia's President Putin, posting on social media that it was a good conversation, but not a conversation that will lead to immediate peace.

"Putin," Trump said, "vowed very strongly to respond to Ukraine strikes," which were a major logistical and psychological setback for Russia's leader.

But his grip on the country isn't loosening.

Over the past quarter century, Putin has completely transformed the country.

The Kremlin has gradually turned inward, embracing nationalism, scorning the West, and crushing descent.

And now a new book tells the story of how that move towards authoritarianism has torn apart a generation of Russians.

"Our Dear Friends in Moscow" is by investigative journalist Irina Borogan and Andrei Soldatov, and they're joining me now live from London.

Irina And Andrei, welcome to the program.

Congratulations on the book.

I wanna get to the book in just a moment, but if we could pick up on this news out just today about this phone call between President Trump and President Putin.

It's the first time we've heard from President Putin also, addressing the Russian public, following that incredible attack that's been in the works for some 18 months by the Ukrainian Intelligence Services and taking out a number of their bomber planes.

President Putin rejected Ukraine's offer of a summit with President Zelensky and any immediate ceasefire, and went on to say, quote, "Who has negotiations with terrorists?"

Irina, if I could get you to respond to these statements from President Putin, are they a surprise to you?

And do you think that the strikes over the weekend did anything to set back potential ceasefire negotiations, or no?

- It doesn't sound surprising to me because, you know, that Putin, he is a quite smart strategist and he not always react immediately.

What happened two days ago was just a huge blow into the Russian strategic policy on the war, and it was absolutely unexpected.

But Putin wait for some time.

And then he said, he said something to Trump that we can see was very important, was that he is not going to negotiate with Zelensky and he may be not going to negotiate at all.

And given the backdrop of what's going with Iran, it sounds like kind of very, very important and significant.

- Yes, because what we're hearing from this phone call, Andrei, is that they also discuss the negotiations with Iran over their nuclear program, which Russia said they would like to play a part in.

We know that the two countries have grown closer over the course of this war as well.

Much of the drone technology that Russia has been buying has been coming now from Iran.

Do you get a sense that perhaps President Trump may, as he has in the past, take some of Putin's talking points and use them a against President Zelensky in terms of who is being more of an impediment to ending this war at this point?

- Yes, absolutely.

It seems to me that Vladimir Putin is trying to make a point that he was all for the talks, but now it's Ukraine who is, and the counter, which is destroying the chances of peace deal, which actually plays right into the hand of Trump, who has been always accusing Zelensky of being too, well, reckless with this peace negotiation.

And also Putin indicated that he can actually escalate not only on the battlefield, but in some other areas which are crucial to Trump.

So it is already a big escalation.

- Let's talk about the book, because I think what we learn a lot about how we got here into a war that's now into its third year, given your own personal experiences as journalists in writing this book.

And Andrei, it begins in the first year of Putin's presidency, where the two of you were working at a newspaper, it was called "Segodnya," which means today.

It's one of the most popular newspapers at the time.

It ends with the two of you living in exile in the United Kingdom, and Andrei, you being on the most wanted list in Russia.

And all the while, you talk about the growing tension and then the breakup in relationships that you had with friends and fellow journalists who chose very differing paths.

You, obviously, choosing one to speak out against Putin's growing authoritarianism, your friends choosing another.

Why did you go about writing this story from such a personal perspective?

- Because when the full-scale invasion started in 2022, it was a really big shock that many monks say is the best and brightest, and Russian society decided to side with Putin in this war.

And it was such big shock, even after the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and after everything which happened since 2000, still it was a shock.

And we wanted to understand what prompted these people to support this clearly brutal and horrible war with Ukraine.

So we decided to talk and reach out to people we used to know very close.

Now, most of them occupy very significant positions in power, including the Minister of Culture, for instance, to try to understand their reasoning.

And because, maybe because of what we had this common past, and we used to be friends, most of them agreed to talk to us.

And so this is our attempt to understand their reasoning and to understand why, while we making these choices, why they were making their choices and why it was so different from what we saw back then.

- Yeah, and your friends, we should note, weren't uneducated.

They were highly educated.

They were not susceptible to Russian propaganda.

And yet, such divergent paths you write in the book, "It is a personal story, since they were our friends at a time when we could never have imagined that our lives, our perceptions of truth, and our hopes for our country could diverge so profoundly."

The current Minister of Culture, Olga Lyubimova, Irina, if you can tell us a little bit about her and your relationship with her, and some of the conversations you've now subsequently had with her as you were investigating and writing this book.

- I met Olga Lyubimova, who is now the Russian Minister of Culture, when she was in her early 20s.

So she was literally like 21, 22 years old, not older.

And she was a very attractive young woman, a little bit Bohemian.

She liked parties a lot.

She smoked, she drank.

And so she was a student at School of Journalists of Moscow State University.

And she was charming.

She came from a family of famous Russian actor, and all her family is very, very cultural and important for the Russian culture.

And she was liberal.

She was very, very liberal.

And I could not have imagined back then that she sided with Putin during the war, and she became a person who's involved in re in re-education of kids on the occupied territories.

And of course, it was impossible to imagine that Olga will be in charge of all promotion, and she will be supervising the production of government-sponsored movies about the war, raising the war in Ukraine.

- Reeducating the kids, it is how Russians are describing it, liberating Ukrainian children.

The rest of the world, and obviously Ukrainians, first and foremost, view this as a form of kidnapping and a war crime, bringing thousands of children against their will because their parents are either detained or had been killed.

They'd been separated from them during the war into Russia.

Andrei, you you also talk about the difference in how you and your friends responded.

There was a collective agreement following the attack in Moscow at the Dubrovka Theater with the botch as terrorists attacked the theater and then the botch, then response and rescue mission by the Russians, leaving some 100 people dead.

They all responded in 2002.

You all did in similar, gas and, I guess, just frustration and outrage.

And then things changed after the 2004 Beslan Massacre at the school that killed nearly 200 young children.

What transpired in those two years that you would start to see a change following two such major devastating blows to the country?

- Yes, I remember it was a quite a bit of a shock for me that one of the protagonist of our book and our former friend, Zhenya Baranov, who was a very brave correspondent, and I admired him and respected him because he was so brave.

All of a sudden, he started talking about Stalin in Beslan.

And I think the reason why was that he had a very dark vision of what could be done in Russia.

And he, because he started history at his university, as most of our friends, all of them got this dark vision that in a country like Russia, and specifically in Russia, if you want to get things done, they could be done only if you serve the dictator.

So that's the only option.

And he was very straightforward about it.

But now it is the time that Putin told everyone and made it very clear to the Russian society that he gonna stay for many, many years.

So the only way to do something is to find a way how to survive under Putin.

And these guys, they didn't want just to survive.

They wanted to play a really big role in what was going on in the country.

All of 'em were extremely ambitious.

So they just decided that to serve the dictator was the only option available.

All other options were for people like us to be on outside and up position, but that was for losers, not for real people who wanted to achieve something.

- It's notable that today is Alexei Navalny's birthday, what would've been his birthday.

And you write about a rally in 2011, where Navalny called for regime change, and another one of your friends, Petya Akopov, wrote a brutal Facebook post.

I'm gonna read some of it.

"To imprison him is impossible.

Leaving him in the wild for a long time is also dangerous.

This is part of his program.

The third option remains remove him, and at the same time blamed it on the Americans.

Not only for Putin, I think for all of the country, better the blood of one than the blood of millions."

This was in 2011.

We know that sadly, Navalny died in Russian prison last February.

Irina as we remember, Navalny, as you now are living in exile, I'm wondering what your message is for the world, and mostly for the next generation of Russians.

Because there is this perception, and I'd like for you to address it in the West, outside of Russia, that perhaps you and Andrei are now the outliers, in the minority of where the Russian public stands when it comes to nationalism, authoritarianism, the fact that you've got a leader in office for now a quarter of a century, conducting an illegal war.

I know that's a lot to address, but just your thoughts.

- There are a lot of people who are against the war and against Kremlin right now in Moscow, in St. Petersburg, and other places in Russia.

But remember, they're all fearless, they're all scared of the Kremlin, because you can be punished a lot for just telling the truth to people or just discussing the war in Ukraine, or just putting, posting anything about the war on your social media.

It happens every day in Russia that somebody was being sent to prison for telling the truth on Facebook or conduct activities analog or Facebook.

So don't judge Russians by the rules of the freedom countries like the U.S. or the U.K.

It's much, much more difficult to be honest with yourself and with the society being Russians, because we spent decades telling the truth to people.

And I mean, thank God, we are alive and still doing our job.

But I think the West- - [Bianna] Yeah.

- Should put more effort to send in to send in free information, free information flow to Russians.

It is still possible.

- [Bianna] Yeah.

- And they're still listening to.

- Irina Borogan, Andrei Soldatov, if you work continues, as dangerous as it may be, sadly, living in exile now for three years, very poignant book.

- Thank you so much.

- Thank you very much for having us here.

- Thank you.

- Now to the world of fashion and a real life example of the American dream.

From Michelle Obama and Kamala Harris to the Princess of Wales, designer Prabal Gurung has dressed some of the most famous women in the world.

Following a childhood, growing up queer in Nepal and India, his talent saw him skyrocket to the top of the New York fashion scene.

But despite his success, Gurung faced discrimination, being told, "You don't look American."

He joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss his new memoir and how far he's come.

- Bianna, thanks.

Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for joining us.

Your book, "Walk Like a Girl," the title is a phrase that really was used as kind of a slur against you for so long.

Why put this as the title of the book?

What does this phrase mean to you now?

- You know, when I was growing up surrounded by a really strong mother and sister and strong women overall, and even my, you know, superhero, my favorite superhero was Wonder Woman, I never thought emulating women or the way they were, the complexities, was anything bad.

In fact, I thought it was empowering.

So when I went into the real world and the way it was thrown at me, I understood the intention behind it and the impact, the negative impact about it.

But I felt like, you know, the term, walk like a girl, which is used, you know, pejoratively often to diminish and demean someone.

I wanted to take that term and transform it to a term and phrase of power, courage, and empowerment.

And simply because, you know, I believe to walk like a girl in this world is you walk through softness and defiance and complexities, and, you know, courage and vulnerability.

And I felt like it's also this way of saying, you know, "I belong here."

Unapologetically loving yourself and owning your space and having the humility to be curious and understand, but also like, you know, not shrinking oneself.

Because I think it's important to understand that you don't need outside validation.

That you are worthy on your own.

The space that you occupy is enough.

- You know, you start this book with some easily, you know, describable as painful parts of your childhood growing up in Nepal, and you knew you were different.

You were trying on your mom's lipstick, and in secret, your cousin's dresses.

- [Prabal] Yeah.

- [Hari] And this was in, you know, your siblings and your mother were firmly in support of you.

- [Prabal] Yeah.

- But, you know, your larger family and community was not.

And I wonder, they didn't really understand you.

So give us an example.

What were the consequences?

- I would want to say there was something subtle about it.

There was nothing subtle.

Now, you know, they were really point blank made me feel, say stuff like, "Oh, you're a pansy.

You are a this.

You're a girl.

You cry like a girl.

You walk like a girl.

You talk like a girl."

And it was just so, it was so confusing.

As I said earlier, like, you know, for me, there was nothing wrong with that.

So it was really confusing.

And then it got into, when I went to school, because I did not fit into this more the narrow description of what a boy should look like.

So that really bothered.

And as we know, in this world, the people in power, oftentimes, you know, or the majority, can't see anyone who's different than them.

It really threatens their own existence.

And my existence, that was unapologetic And, you know, just like unabashedly myself really bothered them because someone like me who wasn't, let's say, who looked like them, should be shrinking, right?

But I wasn't.

I really felt like the love and the acceptance that I got from my siblings and my mother back home empowered me to have a voice.

But then it turned it into, you know, physical beatings- - Yeah.

- Bullying.

And to be completely honest, like, you know, when I look back at it, the physical aspect of it, you can still handle it because, you know, you kind of learn how to protect yourself.

You know, I didn't know every nook and corner.

I didn't know where the next punch was coming at me.

I didn't know that.

But you kind of train yourself, and that's the trauma that you, you know, as I always like, as a marginalized person, anyone can understand that.

You're always in that, you know, flight or fight mode.

But it's the impact and the volume of words, that negative words that come at you, the impact of it is it really sinks in and stays with you.

Now, your body registers it, you know?

- Yeah.

- The physical wound and everything, it can heal.

And that is what I was like really initially not understanding, but when it got to me and stayed with me for a very long time.

It took me a while to get to a place when I was like, "You know what?

I'm going to work on it.

The world says that I don't fit in.

I'm gonna do my own thing."

And I used to tell my mother, she reminds me like I was to say something like, "You know, mom, I know my worth.

The world just needs to catch up to it."

I mean, I dunno how to.

I mean, I must have a precocious child.

But, you know, that's how I look at it, you know?

- So you go through school in Nepal and in India, you come to New York, you're kind of learning the ropes of fashion.

You're interning, you're going out at night.

And you start realizing that there's still this sort of sense of otherness.

There's a quote here.

"You're beautiful.

I don't even think of you as Asian.

Even more ridiculous was whenever, whoever hurled the insult would follow it up with, 'Oh, lighten up.

You know I love Asians,' or, 'I love sushi,' or, 'I love Indian food.'

I cannot tell you how many times someone has said to me, 'I'm normally not into Asians, but you are attractive.'"

You are still an outsider, even though, you know, relative to the place you came from, this was probably a very liberating environment.

But here you are, finding yourself, "Wait, what happened?"

- That's the thing.

The complex story about America is that.

You know, like, you know, America to me was this like a dream made in technicolor.

Like, and this was New York City was where all my heroes were.

Like Debbie Harry, Basquiat, Andy Warhol, Mark Jacobs, Madonna, and living in East Village, and, you know, you look at all these colorful misfits.

And I was like, when I looked at, got a glimpse of New York through, you know, a few magazines or like glimpses that I saw, it felt like home to me.

It was beckoning to me.

When I arrived here... And also, let's just not forget, America has this incredible PR pitch about everyone is welcome here, you know?

- Yeah.

- And the truth of the matter is very complex.

Everyone is welcome as long as you follow the rules within the boundary, as the lines, and as long as you are in close proximity to how they behave or how they look.

The minute you are different, you are directly or indirectly aware of your difference.

And to me, it was really baffling.

In the beginning, because it was like, "All right, wait a second."

Like, "Is this okay for them to say this?"

you know?

And then I realized, I thought it was an isolated thing for me, but it's like, it is every person of color, every marginalized person go through this in some way or the other.

- Right.

- Like, there are so many times, and my friends, you know, they tell me incidents when they're in their office, they open Indian food, and people will be like, "What's that smell?"

Versus like, "What's this fragrance?"

It's those words, you know?

It's like... And so it's, I always felt like that's why words have power, you know?

And the word like from smell to a fragrance goes from a tolerance to celebration, you know?

So all of that stuff mattered.

And you know, you come here and you realize that, oh wow, like the world that I thought I would be completely accepted, it is not accepting me.

But then, what it does, I'm also incredibly grateful for this country because in this country is where you can question and write a book like this, when you can question all these ideas and norms that are so preconceived and rooted in this, I would say, deep colonial beliefs.

That's what I feel, you know?

- There's this idea that America has of like the overnight success, right?

And by the time you're pulling off your kind of magical first show, it's almost like an entire village.

A community of people- - Yeah.

It was.

Who had collected along the way, over years and years of doing all the hard work- - [Prabal] Yeah.

- Really just came out in belief and support of you.

But, you know, I wonder about this idea that we have, that, oh well, it's just, you know, this kind of moment and he just arrived and it just happened for him.

- Yeah.

And it was absolutely.

When I started my, like when I started my brand, it was deep in recession fall 2009, Bill Bassett closed.

I was looking for a job.

I went to head hunters, and the reaction that I was getting was, "Oh, he is not talented enough," or, "He is not right for us," you know?

And so I was like, "All right, you know what?

Let me just give it a shot.

You know, if it doesn't work out, I'll blame it on recession."

I went on unemployment.

That's the beauty of this country, is like, you know, you have to have an, that's the thing about America is, you know, opportunity is just an idea waiting to happen.

These luck is just an idea waiting to happen.

And I had this idea, and I went in unemployment.

That gave me the strength, okay.

And I moved from massive apartment to a tiny little studio in East Village right in front of Hell's Angels.

My friend's studio-like apartment became my studio.

And, you know, all like my friend's gallery became my show space.

Everyone came together.

But at the same time, just to see this collective force of people coming, because I had a belief that I had a story to tell, you know?

And as I said, like, and maybe perhaps the fact that I come from the part, like from Nepal and India, that part, that continent, I didn't expect everything to happen in one go.

I was very patient about the fact that, you know, I'm okay with building it slowly and surely.

But then, you know, luck had a different thing for me, and it got on the cover of "Women's Wear Daily."

Zoe's wore it.

And it just took off immediately.

And to be completely honest, I was just waiting, I was hoping for a line in "Women's Wear Daily" to be mentioned about my collection.

I got the cover, and that completely changed my life.

- So there is an excerpt in the book about your vision board, what you had kind of set out as the goal is for yourself.

And it says, "Start a brand, check.

Get in a few stores, check.

Make a growth plan, check.

Dress Oprah, check.

Michelle Obama, check.

Get in Vogue, done.

Apply for a CDFA Vogue Fashion Fund, win a Vogue Fashion Fund, check, check.

Go to the Met Gala, several times, check.

Become the creative director of Chanel."

Maybe that's still out there.

- [Prabal] Yeah.

- "Start a foundation."

I mean, you know, when I look at this, and I guess this is a question for maybe to abstract for people beyond just the fashion industry, you have accomplished most of what's on this list, right?

And I guess my question is not just what's your next vision board, but how do you find your why?

- Simple.

It was my mother.

My mother has been my roadmap for like, you know, strength and resilience and everything that I do.

She has been my north star.

Anytime that something's happened, I'll call her, and I'll be like, you know, "Hey, mom, this is happening, you know?"

Like, "This is so and so celebrity is like wearing my stuff."

And, you know, she's always been someone who's celebrates with me, but also says, like, I still remember the thing that changed for me was when she said to me after I dressed Michelle Obama, you know, was she said to me, "I'm glad that happened," because it was her idea.

She was the one who planted the seed of dressing someone like Michelle Obama because she felt that she, you know, Former First Lady Michelle Obama was the one that I was describing in the women that I wanted to dress.

And then when it happened, she said to me, "The success no longer is yours, it just belong to you.

It belongs to the country, the continent, every marginalized person.

Now, what are you going to do with it?

Are you going to be keeping it for yourself or is it going to be impacting everyone else?"

And that's when our foundation, Shikshya foundation Nepal, we started that with my siblings and my friends.

And my why came not because, "Oh, I wanna be x, y, z million dollar companies," or like, "I want to be on."

Those are all important goals.

But my thing was, "Am I making someone feel seen with through my work?

Am I making even one person?"

Because I know what it feels like to turn the pages of magazines, turn on television, or look at the cover of a book and see empty mirrors reflecting back nothing that looks like you, nothing, you know, that resonates with you.

So my why is less ego-driven, but rather like, how do I serve the community, the people around me?

And even, you know, far away.

Because I think at the end of the day, that's our job as humans.

We are not living for ourselves.

We are vessel for like, you know, servitude and service is that's what I believe in.

- [Hari] You've been an outspoken advocate for inclusivity- - [Prabal] Yeah.

- And diversity in fashion and design, and you've been active in political campaigns.

And you've gotten pushback from members of the fashion world, saying, "Oh look, this is Prabal just looking for another publicity cycle.

You know, stay in your lane, work on your clothes.

Don't do this."

And I wonder, as you see the recent administration's rollbacks on so many of the things that you hold dear, how do you stay engaged?

How do you continue your work?

What do you see as your place or your responsibility?

- I think for anyone who like looks like me or who don't look like the majority, our biggest job is to make sure we don't give into cynicism.

You know, we acknowledge all the trauma and everything that we go through, have an open communication within the community and outside of it, but show up unapologetic as ourselves.

Because the biggest resistance to the patriarchy or to the majority, to everything out there that is like in resisting our existence is showing up unapologetically, unabashedly ourselves.

That is a first step towards that.

Sometimes I think back about that collection, the "Who Gets To Be American," and it's five years later, we still are having that conversation, you know?

And I think about the promise and the hope of the, let's say, the Obama era, like the Obama years, like, you know, brought about America, and like, you know, and how it give us hope.

And the thing about what oftentimes like America forgets is what happens in America has a ripple effect down the globe, you know, like across the world.

And so through my runway shows, where the people I dress, for instance, you know, when we do the Met Gala, people I dress people, I take as my guests, it's very diverse, it's colorful.

It's like exactly like my dinner table.

And that's what I want to show on a runway, simply because if it is possible within the confines of my house, it is possible in the outside world, also this colorful, diverse, incredibly amazing people.

And the more we see us, the world sees us, the less afraid we are of each other.

That's how I look at it.

And going back to what you asked about, you know, mentioned about how people were saying, "Oh, it's for publicity or this," I always say, "For me, it's my life.

It is who I am.

It has been my existence."

And it's not just a moment, it's a movement.

And it's more than a movement.

It is the way who we all exist.

- You go out of your way to say, "Look, I'm not just in this for the cloth, I'm trying to tell stories."

- [Prabal] Yeah.

- "With the types of clothing and the fashion that I'm creating here.

I want to tell, especially the stories of Nepal's."

How do you figure out what stories to tell?

- It's instinct.

You know, the beauty of being a creative person, as an artist is your instinct.

I feel like we get the opportunity to hone in our instincts and I react to not just things that I look that are beautiful, whether it's a paintings or listen to that music, but it's also political stuff.

Right now, I'll never forget when I did my 10-year anniversary collection.

It was after a meeting with a potential investor who asked me what the brand stands for.

And I said, "You know, I want to create a new Americana because Americana for the longest period of time has been dictated by this, you know, these great designers like Donna Karen, Ralph Lauren, and Calvin, you know?

But the America that I see is insanely called immensely and amazingly colorful.

And I wanna bring that to the forefront and create that new version of Americana."

And I'll never forget when he turned to me and said, "Well, you don't look American."

You know, how are you going to define American?

And I said to him, like, "I am an American citizen.

You know, I pay my taxes.

I make more than 90% of my clothes in America.

I'm engaged in politically and in civil."

Like, "Everything through my foundation, through everything that I do, and it's still not enough.

What you're saying is I'm not white.

That's what you're trying to say."

And he kept quiet.

I'll never forget.

I'm needless to say I didn't get that investment, obviously, you know?

But I remember getting the cab and I was like thinking, "Will it ever be enough?"

That triggered me to do a collection called "Who Gets To Be American," you know?

And that collection, my 10-year anniversary collection informed the next year's Met Gala, you know?

And that's when Andrew Bolton, everyone's like, you know, said in his notes, like, probably girl asked this on his runway show, and we are trying to answer this.

Not that I knew that was going to have a ripple effect.

Yeah, I was just reacting to something that felt not right for me, you know?

And that's how I look at it, is like, you know, bringing my story from our part of the world is, I keep on saying, for the longest period of time, we've been told East meets West.

And I said, "No, no, no.

the narrative has to change.

It's the West has to meet the East now."

- [Hari] Yeah.

- Because that is what needs to be done because East has done the work, the West has to do the work now.

- The memoir is called "Walk Like a Girl," author and fashion designer, Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for your time.

- Thank you so much.

I really appreciate.

This means a lot.

- And finally, 36 years ago today, the world watched in horror as Chinese troops opened fire on student-led protestors in Tiananmen Square, Beijing.

Around 1 million people took to the streets over several weeks, calling for more social freedoms.

But their dreams were brutally crushed as the tanks rolled in.

Human rights groups estimate that hundreds, if not thousands, were killed.

In China, remembering the crackdown remains strictly taboo, with heightened security around the historic square.

2014, Christiane spoke with someone who helped lead the demonstrations and now lives in exile.

Activist Wu-er Kaixi reflects on that night and what he witnessed.

- It's one very dramatic night after seven dramatic weeks.

And we occupied the street of Beijing Tiananmen Square for seven weeks.

We made very emotional demands.

We went through hunger strikes.

And one of the Chinese poet wrote, they say, "They, they students moved to God, but they failed to move the emperor."

- What do you remember about that terribly dramatic night that frankly was broadcast all over the world live on CNN until they shut us down.

- It did seem a success.

It's a genuine possibility, until when we hear the gunshots.

We did expect some kind of crackdown.

The logic of a mass movement is that you apply pressure and hope for your opponent to make the right choice.

We never really expected relamination.

So when the news came into the square to say there were already bloodshed, there were other people dying from trying to stop the troops coming into the square.

Of course, that time, the square is in extreme emotional state.

But all the students there were almost ready, almost ready to sacrifice our lives.

- And that's it for our program tonight.

If you wanna find out what's coming up on the show each night, sign up for our newsletter at PBS.org/Amanpour.

Thank you for watching "Amanpour & Co." on PBS.

Join us again tomorrow night.