>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

A SHOCK PROPOSAL FROM TRUMP TO CLEAR OUT AND TAKE OVER GAZA.

WE GET REACTION FROM PALESTINIAN POLITICIAN, THE REGIONAL PERSPECTIVE FROM THE SAUDI ARABIA AND FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES, AND ANALYSIS FROM THE ASSOCIATED DANIEL LEAVY.

>>> PLUS, REPRESENTING THE RIOTERS' ATTORNEY, TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HER CLIENTS, THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITAL ON JANUARY 6th.

>>> WNET IS MADE POSSIBLE BY BY JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT WAS THE PROPOSAL HEARD AND ROUNDLY REJECTED AROUND THE WORLD.

HOURS AFTER TRUMP'S OF THE UNITED STATES SHOULD NOT ONLY TAKE OVER GAZA, BUT WITH A GRATEFUL PRIME MINISTER AT HIS SIDE, ALSO CALLED FOR THE REMOVAL OF THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION.

>> THE U.S. WILL TAKE OVER THE GAZA STRIP AND WE WILL DO A JOB WITH IT, TOO, WE WILL OWN IT AND BE RESPONSIBLE FOR DISMANTLING ALL OF THE DANGEROUS, UNEXPLODED BOMBS AND ALL THE OTHER WEAPONS ON THE SITE, THE LEVEL OF THE SITE, AND GET RID OF THE DESTROYED BUILDINGS, LEVEL IT OUT, CREATE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT THAT WILL SUPPLY UNLIMITED NUMBERS OF JOBS AND HOUSING FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE AREA.

WE WILL DO A REAL JOB.

JUST SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> IMMEDIATELY, THE BACK RASH FROM REGIONAL POWERHOUSES AND NEIGHBORS WAS FIRM AND A FLAT OUT NO.

AS FOR THE PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES, THEY SAY THEY HAVE ENDURED 15 MONTHS OF HELL AS ISRAEL HAS LEVELED GAZA, BUT THEY AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

THEY WON'T BE FORCED OUT THEY SAY, NOW.

>> Translator: THIS IS A FAILED ISRAELI PLAN AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TRANSFER US FROM GAZA.

WE LIVED UNDER A BOMBARDMENTS FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.

AFTER ALL OF THE SUFFERING, STARVATION, BOMBARDMENTS, AND DEATH, WE WON'T EASILY LEAVE GAZA.

>> Translator: ALL OF OUR CHILDREN'S HOMES HAVE BEEN DEMOLISHED, AND OUR HOUSES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

RAIN COMES INTO THE HOUSE.

COLD IS COMING IN.

AND WE WILL STILL STAY, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.

EVEN IF WE STAY IN A TENT, EVEN IF THEY GIVE US CASTLES AND VILLAS, WE ARE NOT LEAVING OUR LAND.

>> Translator: I WANT TO DIE IN MY LAND, TO STAY IN IT.

I WAS BORN IN GAZA, LIVED IN GAZA, STUDIED IN GAZA, I GOT MARRIED HERE, AND HAD MY CHILDREN.

WHATEVER HAPPENS, I WILL NEVER LEAVE IT.

>> SO, THAT IS THE REACTION TO THE PROPOSAL.

BUT, FROM TRUMP'S PERSPECTIVE, IS THIS A NEGOTIATING MASTERSTROKE?

TONIGHT, WE ASKED THREE MOST INTERESTED PARTIES, SAUDI ARABIA, A MIDDLE EAST PEACE NEGOTIATOR, AND OF COURSE, A KEY PALESTINIAN OFFICIAL.

WE BEGIN WITH PRESIDENT OF THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE PARTY, WHO JOINS ME FROM RAMALLAH IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

SO, YOU HAVE HAD APPROXIMATELY 24 HOURS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS SAID FROM THE WHITE HOUSE YESTERDAY.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO BOTH THINGS?

ONE, THE TAKING OVER CONTROL AND FORCIBLY REMOVING THE POPULATION, AND THE OTHER, WE WILL PROVIDE EMPLOYMENT, WE WILL GET RID OF THE UNEXPLODED ORDINANCE, GET RID OF ALL THE RUBBLE, AND REBUILD IT INTO A BEAUTIFUL SPACE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

WHAT WE HEARD WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKING, BUT ACTUALLY IT WAS THE VOICE OF NETANYAHU.

WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PROPOSED WAS NOT ONLY DISTRACTING, BUT CRIMINAL.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND LEADERSHIP UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SAYING, THAT THIS IS A WAR CRIME, THAT THIS IS A CRIMINAL ACT, THAT THIS IS THE MOST SERIOUS VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND BY WHICH LAW PRESIDENT TRUMP THINKS HE CAN STEAL OUR LAND, AND CONDUCT THEFT OF GAZA STRIP, TO USE IT FOR, I DON'T KNOW, IMAGINARY PLANS OF CONSTRUCTION AND SO ON?

BY WHICH LAW, HE WANTS TO DISPLACE US, 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS, FROM GAZA?

WHAT WOULD HE SAY, IF I SAID, FOR INSTANCE, THAT PEOPLE IN NEW YORK SHOULD BE MOVED TO AFGHANISTAN?

OF COURSE, HE WOULD BE TOTALLY MAD IF I SAY SO.

WHAT WOULD HE HAVE SAID IF HE SUGGESTED JEWISH PEOPLE FROM ISRAEL SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM EUROPE AND PUT BACK TO EUROPE, WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

WHAT WOULD BE HIS REACTION?

THE BASIC ELEMENT HERE IS THAT THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND IT WILL NOT WORK.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SHOWN AN UNBELIEVABLE LEVEL OF IGNORANCE OF THE HISTORY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, THE RESILIENCE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, BUT ALSO IGNORANCE OF THE GEOPOLITICAL FACTS ON THE GROUND IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

JORDAN WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS.

EGYPT WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS.

SAUDI ARABIA REJECTED THAT.

I DON'T THINK ANY COUNTRY THAT RESPECTS INTERNATIONAL LAW AND RESPECTS ITSELF, WOULD ACCEPT SUCH PROPOSALS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU A PRACTICAL QUESTION?

AND THAT IS, THAT IT IS RUBBLE -- IN 15 MONTHS, THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS MANAGED TO REDUCE MUCH OF THE GAZA STRIP TO RUBBLE.

YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK IT IS UNINHABITABLE?

DO YOU THINK GAZANS CAN ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE THERE?

A LOT OF THE ARAB COUNTRIES, LIKE CATARRH, SAID TODAY WE PLAN, YOU KNOW, AS A GROUP OF ARAB NATIONS TO HELP REBUILD, BUT WHILE THE PALESTINIANS REMAIN THERE.

BUT, STEVE WOULD COUGH VISITED GAZA LAST WEEK SAID THIS JUST YESTERDAY.

"WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS BE TRANSPARENT TO THESE PEOPLE.

IF YOU GO TO GAZA TODAY -- I WAS THERE, I WITNESSED IT -- YOU SEE PEOPLE GOING THERE, PICKING UP A TENT AND LITERALLY, IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, TURNING RIGHT AROUND AGAIN BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING LEFT, THERE."

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT?

>> THAT IS EXACTLY THE ISRAELI PROPAGANDA.

MY ANSWER TO THAT, IS 500,000 PALESTINIANS, HALF 1 MILLION PEOPLE, CAME BACK TO THE NORTH OF GAZA, AND IT IS DESTROYED, OF COURSE.

BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT LEAVE THEIR LAND.

AND WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT, BECAUSE THE LAST THING ANY PALESTINIAN WANTS AFTER WE HAVE EXPERIENCED ETHNIC CLEANSING IN 1948, THE LAST THING PEOPLE WANTED, WAS TO BE ETHNICALLY CLEANSED, AGAIN.

TO BE DISCONNECTED, AND AS SOME PEOPLE HAVE TOLD YOU ON YOUR PROGRAM, TO BE DISCONNECTED FROM THE HISTORY, FROM THE FAMILIES, FROM THEIR LAND, AND DON'T FORGET THAT THE PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE PART OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHO ALSO LIVE IN WEST BANK, AND ALSO LIVE IN 1948 AREAS.

WHY WOULD THEY BE SEPARATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES, AND THEIR RELATIVES?

THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

AND ALSO, PEOPLE ALREADY -- WE ALREADY DID AND COMPLAINED TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

WE ARE READY TO SURVIVE.

PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE READY TO SURVIVE.

AND WE ASKED NETANYAHU, HOW COULD YOU CAUSE THIS DAMAGE?

HE SHOULD HAVE ASKED HIMSELF, WHERE DID THIS 86 TONS OF EXPLOSIVES THAT WE ARE THROWING ON GAZA, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?

FROM THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

UNITED STATES HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE TERRIBLE GENOCIDE THAT TOOK PLACE, THAT NETANYAHU CONDUCTED.

AND FOR THAT, IT SHOULD BE PAYING PALESTINIANS COMPENSATION.

THEY SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY COMPENSATION TO PALESTINIANS.

BY ETHNICALLY CLEANSING US OUT OF GAZA.

>> AND I ASK YOU SOMETHING?

>> YES.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE WEST BANK, YOU ARE SITTING THERE AT RAMALLAH, THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, SUCH IT IS ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

AND WE SEE, EVERY DAY, REPORTS FROM THEIR OF BASICALLY STILL SETTLER VIOLENCE, IDF IN VARIOUS AREAS.

SOME OF IT IS, THEY SAY, TO CLEAN OUT TERRORISTS FROM JANINE AND ELSEWHERE.

BUT, THERE IS A BIG EFFORT -- AND THE SETTLERS ARE NOT SHY ABOUT IT -- TO TAKE OVER FARMLAND, AND ALL OF ORCHARDS, AND OTHER VILLAGES.

WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

BECAUSE TRUMP WAS ALSO LOST ON IF YOU WOULD PRONOUNCE IF YOU WOULD ACCEPT FULL ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.

>> CHRISTIANE, LISTEN, WHAT TRUMP IS DOING, I AM SURE HE DID ALL OF THAT IN CONSULTATION WITH NETANYAHU AND OTHER FASCIST MINISTERS IN HIS GOVERNMENT.

HE WANTS NOW TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE GAZA.

HE WILL ALLOW ISRAEL TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK, AND THEN THEY WILL BE TALKING ABOUT TRANSFERRING THE POPULATION, THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION, FROM THE WEST BANK TO JORDAN.

WE KNOW, WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DOING, AND IN THIS VERY MOMENT, THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS ORDERED US AND ETHNICALLY CLEANSING AT THE CAMP.

THEY ARE DESTROYING THEIR HOMES.

WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT, IF THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE ATTACKING GAZA BECAUSE OF HAMAS?

NO, IT IS NOT TRUE.

THEY ARE ATTACKING GAZA AND THE WEST BANK BECAUSE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE LIVE THERE, BECAUSE NETANYAHU HAS MADE IT HIS MISSION IN LIFE, HE AND HIS FASCIST GOVERNMENT, TO COMPLETELY ETHNICALLY CLEANSE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND HE WILL NOT SUCCEED.

WHAT HE FAILED TO ACHIEVE THROUGH GENOCIDE, WILL NOT BE ACHIEVED THROUGH THREATS OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

WE ARE RESILIENT, WE ARE STAYING ON OUR LAND, WHATEVER IT TAKES, AND HOW MUCH IT COSTS US, WE WILL NOT LEAVE OUR COUNTRY BECAUSE WE CANNOT ACCEPT ANOTHER ETHNIC CLEANSING OF OUR PEOPLE.

>> SO, YOU KNOW THAT NEITHER THE UNITED STATES, NOR ISRAEL ACCEPTS THE WORD "GENOCIDE" ABOUT GAZA, BUT THE ISRAELI RIGHT-WING AND THE SETTLERS, AS YOU KNOW, ARE EUPHORIC, AS THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING.

THE FORMER MINISTER SAID THAT HE MIGHT RETURN TO THE COALITION OVER THIS, IF TRUMP'S PLAN IS IMPLEMENT IT.

HE TWEETED, "WHEN I SAID THIS, TIME AND AGAIN, DURING THE WAR, THAT THIS WAS THE SOLUTION TO GAZA, THEY MOCKED ME.

NOW, IT IS CLEAR THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO THE GAZA PROBLEM.

THIS IS A STRATEGY FOR THE DAY AFTER."

SO, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY ARE WINNING.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT IS GOING TO STOP THIS?

>> THE SAD THING HERE, CHRISTIANE, UNFORTUNATELY, THE WHOLE ISRAELI POLITICAL SPECTRUM, FROM THE GOVERNMENT PARTIES, TO THE CLEAR IMPOSITION, ALL OF THEM HAVE WELCOMED WHAT TRUMP SAID.

THAT IS A VERY DANGEROUS PHENOMENON.

IT SHOWS THAT NOT ONLY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, BUT PRACTICALLY MUCH OF THE ISRAELI SOCIETY, HAS MOVED TO FASCISM.

THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR, I HAVE NEVER READ ABOUT OR SEEN BEFORE, EXCEPT MAYBE WHAT HAPPENED IN GERMANY DURING THE NAZI AND THE FASCISTS, THERE.

THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS DEVELOPMENT.

NOT ONLY FOR PALESTINIANS, BUT FOR THE FUTURE OF ISRAELIS, THEMSELVES.

THIS KIND OF TENDENCY, WHERE THEY ARE ALL ACCEPTING A WAR CRIME OF ETHNIC CLEANSING AND ENCOURAGING IT, WHERE DID ALL THE TALK ABOUT PEACE, ABOUT SURVIVAL, ABOUT COEXISTENCE, WHERE DID IT ALL GO?

AND IF THAT IS THE KIND OF BEHAVIOR WE ARE WITNESSING NOW FROM THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE ISRAELI SOCIETY, THEN WHAT DO THEY EXPECT FROM THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE?

DO THEY THINK THAT WE WILL SIMPLY SURRENDER AND CAPITULATE?

OF COURSE NOT.

WHAT CAN STOP THIS PLAN IS THREE THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, PALESTINIAN RESILIENCE AND RESISTANCE TO THIS TERRIBLE WAR CRIME.

SECOND, IT SHOULD BE A UNIFIED POSITION, WHICH WE EXPECT WILL HAPPEN AND TAKE PLACE.

AND NOW, WE SEE WORLDWIDE CONDEMNATION, OR AT LEAST REJECTION OF THIS TERRIBLE AND CRIMINAL IDEA.

THESE ARE VERY IMPORTANT THREE FACTORS.

>> AND FINALLY, FINALLY, I WILL PUT THAT THE SAUDI PRINCE TURKEY IN A MOMENT, BUT OBVIOUSLY, THE ISRAELIS WILL REJECT THE WAY YOU CHARACTERIZED THEM.

AND INTERESTINGLY, THERE WERE QUITE A FEW ISRAELIS WHO CNN ASKED TODAY IN TEL AVIV AND ELSEWHERE, AND THEY DIDN'T LIKE THIS PLAN, EITHER.

BUT, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY.

NOW, MY QUESTION TO YOU NOW IS, DO YOU THINK THE TWO STATE SOLUTION IS DEAD?

>> I THINK THEY HAVE KILLED IT A LONG TIME AGO, BUT THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO A TWO STATE SOLUTION?

WITHOUT REMOVING THE ISRAELI ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS, WE CANNOT SEE A TWO STATE SOLUTION.

WITHOUT ENDING OCCUPATION, YOU CANNOT SEE A REAL PALESTINIAN STATE.

BUT, IF THERE IS NO TWO STATE SOLUTION, THE ONLY SOLUTION LEFT WOULD BE ONE DEMOCRATIC STATE, WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY ON ALL OF HISTORIC PALESTINE.

THEY DON'T WANT IT, I KNOW.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

EXACTLY, THE ETHNIC CLEANSING THAT NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ADVOCATING.

THIS IS A VERY SHAMEFUL AND A BLACK MOMENT IN THE AMERICAN HISTORY, THAT THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, THE HIGHEST PERSON IN THE SYSTEM, IS CALLING FOR CONDUCTING A WAR CRIME, SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE, AND IT IS REALLY SHAMEFUL, AND I HOPE THAT THE AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT CAN CORRECT ITSELF ON THIS MATTER, AND FORCED PRESIDENT TRUMP TO RETRACT THESE DANGEROUS IDEAS.

>> WELL, THAT WILL BE INTERESTING, WATCH OUT, BECAUSE CERTAIN POLITICIANS ARE SAYING -- PARTICULARLY THE BIT ABOUT USING AMERICAN TROOPS -- THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO GO OVER VERY WELL IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, MUSTAFA, THANK YOU, AND NOW WE ARE GOING TO EXPLORE WIDER.

TRUMP IS CLEARLY BANKING ON RICH ARAB COUNTRIES AND CAN GUNS -- KINGDOMS TO SUPPORT THIS REGION.

QATAR, THE MAJOR MEDIATOR, AND POSSESSING DEEP POCKETS, HAS ALREADY SAID THAT IT AND OTHER ARAB NATIONS PLAN TO REBUILD GAZA WHILE THE PALESTINIANS REMAIN ON THEIR LAND.

THE UNITED STATES REALLY WANTS NORMALIZATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE REGIONAL POWERHOUSE, SAUDI ARABIA.

BUT, THERE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS ALSO REJECTED THE TRUMP PLAN.

SO, NEXT, WE GO TO THE CAPITAL, RIYAH, WITH THE SAUDI INTELLIGENCE CHIEF AND AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES, TURKEY.

PRINCE TURKEY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE BEEN DIGESTING WHAT CAME TO THE WHITE HOUSE LAST NIGHT, YOU PROBABLY HEARD THAT VIEW, SO, IS THERE GOING TO BE A UNITED ARAB FRONT AGAINST THIS TRUMP VISION?

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, FOR INVITING ME.

I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO ADD TO WHAT HE SAID, OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT WHAT CAME OUT OF MR. TRUMP IS NOT DIGESTIBLE.

I RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ADD MORE TO HIS COMMENTS ON THAT.

IT IS OFFENSIVE THE -- A FANTASY TO BELIEVE THE ETHNIC CLEANSING IN THE 21st CENTURY CAN BE CONDONED BY A WORLD COMMUNITY THAT STAYS ON ITS BEHIND AND DOES NOT RESPOND TO THAT.

THE PROBLEM IN PALESTINE IS NOT THE PALESTINIANS.

IT IS THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

AND THIS HAS BEEN CLEAR AND UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYBODY, HENCE YOU HAVE UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS CALLING FOR THE QUID PRO QUO OF LAND FOR PEACE, FROM 1967 UNTIL NOW.

THE PEACE INITIATIVE, OF COURSE, IS BASED ON THAT.

AND OFFERING ISRAEL NOT ONLY A DIPLOMATIC RELATION, BUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ISRAEL WANTED, FROM TRADE, FROM NORMALIZATION, ET CETERA, AND RETURN FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A PALESTINIAN STATE IN ITS CAPITAL, JERUSALEM.

ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE AMERICAN POLICY UNTIL THIS LATEST WORDING THAT MR. TRUMP HAS CHOSEN TO USE AND CLAIMING THAT HE WANTS TO DO BETTER THINGS, WHEN ACTUALLY HE IS GOING TO TURN THINGS INTO MORE CONFLICT AND MORE BLOODSHED.

>> CAN I DRAW ON YOUR LONG, LONG YEARS OF EXPERIENCE?

YOU WERE SAUDI AMBASSADOR TO AMERICA.

WHAT WOULD YOU BE TELLING YOUR CAPITAL, YOUR KING, IN A CABLE, HAD YOU BEEN IN WASHINGTON LAST NIGHT, IN THAT POSITION, AND LISTENED TO WHAT CAME FROM THE PODIUM?

HOW WOULD YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT?

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU, I AM GLAD I AM NOT IN THAT POSITION, BECAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT I CAN EXPLAIN IT.

IT COMES OUT OF THE BLUE, AND IT IS TOTALLY BASED ON THE ISRAELI POSITION OF ETHNIC CLEANSING.

AS YOU MENTIONED YOURSELF, MR. BEN REVERE, THE ULTIMATE ETHNIC CLEANSER IN PALESTINE, HE HAS BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS AS HE JOINED THE GOVERNMENT, AND NOW HE IS JUSTIFYING WHAT HE SAID BY THE WORDS OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

>> SO, WHAT, THEN, IS THE NEXT STEP?

WE HAD EVERYBODY FROM YOUR CAPITAL, TO THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, WHICH TRUMP EXPECTS TO TAKE, YOU KNOW, THESE MILLER PALESTINIANS REJECT THIS OUT OF HAND, SAY IT IS ILLEGAL AND WE HAVE HEARD THE PRESIDENT OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY -- WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE NEXT STEP?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> I'M NOT IN GOVERNMENT, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY GOVERNMENT WOULD PROPOSE, BUT I WOULD EXPECT THAT THERE WOULD BE COLLECTIVE ACTION ON THE PART NOT ONLY OF THE ARABS, BUT THE WESTERN WORLD, AS WELL, AND OTHER COUNTRIES WHO BELIEVE IN THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, TO TAKE UP THE MATTER, AND IT GOES TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

THIS IS THE ONLY ARENA WHERE THINGS LIKE THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED, UNFORTUNATELY, WITH THE AMERICAN VETO, I CANNOT EXPECT THERE WILL BE MUCH SUCCESS IN PASSING RESOLUTIONS.

BUT, NONETHELESS, IT WILL SHOW THAT THE WORLD IS OPPOSED TO THIS MAD ETHNIC CLEANSING PLAN THAT THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT HAS PROPOSED.

>> YOU ARE A REALLY SMART PERSON WHO UNDERSTANDS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES, THINGS ARE SAID AND THEY MAY HIDE A DIFFERENT MEANING.

DO YOU SEE ANY -- IS THERE ANY NEGOTIATING STRATEGY THAT YOU SEE, THAT TRUMP MIGHT CLAIM, OR HIS ALLIES MIGHT CLAIM?

>> I HAVE NO IDEA, AND I CANNOT SEE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BLANK WALL IN FRONT OF ME, OF TOTAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE ISRAELI POSITION BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

IT IS NOT ONLY THE PRESIDENT.

WE HAVE HEARD ALSO SUPPORTING CALLS FROM SENATORS, AND CONGRESSMEN, AND OTHER OF THE AMERICAN SHUTTLE OF POLITICS SUPPORTING THIS.

SO, THAT IS THE UNFORTUNATE POSITION OF A WHOLE STRUCTURE THAT HAS BEEN BUILT IN THE PAST YEARS IN SUPPORT OF ISRAEL.

>> AS YOU KNOW, AND AS WE HAVE SAID, NORMALIZATION IS A BIG STRATEGY, A BIG GOAL OF THE UNITED STATES, OF ISRAEL, ET CETERA.

CERTAIN ARAB COUNTRIES HAVE ALWAYS DONE THAT, BUT THE CROWN JEWEL IS YOUR COUNTRY, SAUDI ARABIA.

YOU SEE ANYWAY -- I KNOW YOU ARE NOT IN GOVERNMENT -- BUT, YOUR KING AND OTHERS HAVE SAID IN THE PAST THAT THERE WILL BE NO NORMALIZATION WITHOUT A PLEDGE FOR A PALESTINIAN STATE, AND IN FACT, FOR ISRAEL TO GET OUT OF GAZA.

DO YOU THINK THAT STILL HOLDS?

CAN YOU SEE A NORMALIZATION HAPPENING?

>> INDEED.

NOT AT ALL.

THIS MORNING, OUR FOREIGN MINISTRY ISSUED A STATEMENT, REJECTING WHAT CAME OUT OF WASHINGTON IN THE LAST DAYS.

AND THIS HAS BEEN THE POSITION OF SAUDI ARABIA FROM THE BEGINNING.

AND EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, IF YOU RECALL, WHEN PRINCE HOHMAN SPOKE WITH ONE OF THE OPPOSITION TELEVISION CHANNELS IN AMERICA.

HE MADE CLEAR, THEN, THAT THE PATH TO A CLEARER PALESTINIAN STATE IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE AS A RESULT OF ANY TALKS THAT WE HAVE WITH THE AMERICANS.

AND WE DON'T TALK TO THE ISRAELIS.

WE TALK TO THE AMERICANS, AND THIS HAS BEEN THE POSITION THAT HAS BEEN MAINTAINED, FORCEFULLY, AND IN VARIOUS ARENAS.

WHETHER IT IS THE ISLAMIC SUMMIT, THE ARAB SUMMIT, THE GHOST STATE SUMMIT, ALL OF THE INTERNATIONAL ARENAS THAT WERE HELD AND CONFERENCES IN RIYADH HAVE STRESSED THE FACT THAT THERE MUST BE A PALESTINIAN STATE WITH ITS CAPITAL IN EAST JERUSALEM.

>> PRINCE TURKI, THIS SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES, AND ACTUALLY AROUND THE WORLD, WHETHER THEY ARE LEADERS, ELECTED OFFICIALS OR NOT, OR WHOEVER, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN QUITE SCARED ABOUT THESE FIRST TWO WEEKS OF TRUMP, AND EVEN BEFORE, THERE WAS A LOT OF WHAT PEOPLE CALLED ANTICIPATORY OBEDIENCE, FEAR THAT HE WILL USE THE MIGHT OF HIS SUPERPOWER TO PUNISH ANYONE -- ALLIES, ADVERSARIES, OR WHATEVER.

DOES SAUDI ARABIA FEAR A BACKLASH, IF, YOU KNOW, FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?

IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT THIS PLAN, OR YOUR ROLE IN THIS PLAN?

>> WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

ONE OF HIS FIRST STATEMENTS, IF YOU REMEMBER, HE MENTIONED THAT HE WAS WILLING TO SAUDI ARABIA IF SAUDI ARABIA WOULD BE WILLING TO INVEST SOMETHING LIKE $500 BILLION IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE RECALLED THAT THE FIRST COUNTRIES HE VISITED IN HIS FIRST TERM WAS SAUDI ARABIA.

SO, IF HE DOES GO HERE, I AM SURE THAT HE WILL GET AN EAR FULL FROM THE LEADERSHIP HERE ABOUT NOT JUST THE ON WISDOM OF WHAT HE IS PROPOSING, BUT THE DOWNRIGHT UNFAIRNESS, AND INJUSTICE THAT IS REALLY SIGNIFIED, AND TOTALLY PLACED IN THIS PROPOSAL OF ETHNIC CLEANSING FROM WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK, AS HE SAID.

>> AND FUNNILY, PUT ON YOUR HAT AS FORMER SPY CHIEF, I HEARD FROM THE U.S. FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE ON HIS WAY OUT, I INTERVIEWED HIM, AND HE SAID THE AMERICANS ASSESSED THAT OVER THE 15 MONTHS OF ISRAEL'S RESPONSE TO THAT SAVAGE ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th BY HAMAS, THEY ASSESS THAT HAMAS HAS BEEN ABLE TO RECRUIT AT LEAST AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY LOST IN THIS WAR.

FROM AN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY PERSPECTIVE, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN, IN TERMS OF RECRUITMENT?

WHETHER INSIDE, OR EVEN ICES, WHATEVER, AROUND THE REGION, IF THIS VISION TAKES HOLD?

>> WELL, MOST DEFINITELY, IN PALESTINE, IT IS THE QUESTION OF WHO CANNOT CONTRIBUTE THEMSELVES TO OPERATE WITH HAMAS, NOW.

THIS IS THE RESULT OF THE DESTRUCTION, AND THE DEVASTATION, AND THE GENOCIDE, AS HE MENTIONED AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

AND NOW, IN THE WEST BANK.

EVERYBODY HAS BEEN TELLING THE ISRAELIS THAT IF YOU OPPRESS THESE PEOPLE, THAT IF YOU PUNISH THEM, IF YOU INFLICT DEATH, AND DESTRUCTION, AND MAYHEM, AND GENOCIDE UPON THEM, ALL YOU ARE GOING TO DO IS CREATE MORE OPPOSITION.

THAT IS WHY THEY WANT TO USE ETHNIC CLEANSING TO GET THE PEOPLE OUT OF THE TERRITORY.

SO, THEIR POLICY IS CLEAR-CUT, AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE HERE TO REFLECT IT NOW IN WHAT MR. TRUMP HAS SAID.

>> PRINCE TURKI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM RIYADH AND WE HOPE TO CHECK IN WITH YOU IF THIS CONTINUES, THIS SITUATION.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> FINALLY ON THIS, WHAT IS IN THIS FOR AMERICA?

OR, IS THIS SIMPLY A DECADES LONG U.S. POLICY THAT HAS NEVER QUITE MANAGED TO ACHIEVE THE ONLY CURRENTLY VIABLE OPTION FOR PEACE, WHICH IS A TWO STATE SOLUTION?

DANIEL LEAVY IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. MIDDLE EAST PROJECT AND WAS AN ADVISER FOR THE MOST FAR-REACHING ISRAELI PROPOSAL OF THE DOOMED CAMP DAVID SUMMIT NEARLY A QUARTER OF A CENTURY AGO.

DANIEL LEAVY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, YOU HEARD DR., YOU HEARD PRINCE TURKI, AND I MEAN, THEY ARE NOT MINCING ANY WORDS, AT ALL.

FROM A WESTERN PERSPECTIVE, OR A NEGOTIATOR PERSPECTIVE, OR YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF AMERICA, DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPLANATION, AT ALL, FOR WHAT WAS SAID FROM THE WHITE HOUSE LAST NIGHT?

>> WE DO KNOW THAT THE SON-IN- LAW, JARED KUSHNER, HAS TALKED IN THOSE TERMS ABOUT GAZA IN THE PAST.

ISRAELI PRESS IS TELLING US THAT THESE ARE IDEAS THAT ISRAEL, NETANYAHU'S CONFIDANT, HAS TAKEN TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED QUITE WIDELY IN THE ISRAELI PRESS.

WE KNOW THAT SOMETIMES, THIS PRESIDENT WANTS TO SAY ATLANTIS THINGS, HE WILL SAY, MAYBE I WILL DROP THIS PLAN IF YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE.

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN APPEASE HIM ON THIS.

SO, I DO THINK WE ARE LEFT WITH SCRATCHING OUR HEADS, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IF HE IS SERIOUS.

AND BY THE WAY, IF THE MAIN QUESTION BEING ASKED AFTER AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT MAKES A MAJOR STATEMENT IS, "IS HE SERIOUS?"

SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG, HERE.

BUT, IF HE IS SERIOUS, HOW ON EARTH DOES HE THINK THIS WILL BE DONE?

THE RESILIENCE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHICH WE SEE, COULDN'T CONTRAST MORE STARKLY WITH HIS WORDS.

STEADFAST TO THE RESISTANCE.

BRIGADES FROM HAMAS HAVE REPLENISHED THEIR NUMBERS, AS YOU SAID.

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT YOUR WAY TO ACHIEVING THESE.

ARE WE GOING TO SEE AMERICAN BODY BAGS?

IS THIS THE PRIORITY?

THE PRIORITY OF A SECOND TERM TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT WOULD MEAN.

IF YOU WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY GOING TO HAVE TO PRIORITIZE, BE ON THE GROUND, AND THAT IS WHY I TEND TO THINK, CHRISTIANE, IT IS NOT SERIOUS.

BUT, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS NOT DANGEROUS, BECAUSE THE IMPACT, FIRST OF ALL, AS AMERICA'S ALLIES, AND ITS COMPETITORS LOOK AT THIS, AND THEY SAY, WOW, THIS GUY IS GOING TO OVEREXTEND HIMSELF, AND HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP CLIMBING DOWN.

HE IS SHOWING A LACK OF SERIOUS AND THEREFORE, WEAKNESS.

AND ISRAEL, THIS IS EXTREMELY WORRYING.

IN ISRAEL, THE MESSIANIC EXTREMIST CAMP IS GIDDY WITH EXCITEMENT TODAY, AND THESE ARE THE GUYS -- I THINK YOU COULD CALL THEM -- APARTHEID IS NOT ENOUGH.

LIKE, KEEPING THE PALESTINIANS IN SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL CONDITIONS IS NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL PHYSICALLY THERE.

THEY CAME OUT, THEY WARMLY EMBRACED IT, THEY ARE SAYING, YES.

EVEN IF AMERICA DOESN'T DO IT, YOU WILL HAVE A SIGNIFICANT COHORT IN ISRAEL WHO ARE SAYING, HE IS NOW KOSHER TO THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE PERMANENTLY PROMOTED THAT WE MUST DO THIS, BUT IF THEY TRY, IF THEY CLIMB UP THIS LETTER, WILL AMERICA BE THERE?

OR, WILL THEY TURN AROUND AND REALIZE THIS RELIANCE ON AN OMNIPOTENT U.S. IS GOING TO FALL FLAT, AND I THINK THAT IS ALSO WHY -- LOOK, THERE WAS A POLL THAT SAID 80% OF ISRAELIS SUPPORT THE PLAN.

BUT, I THINK MANY ISRAELIS HAVE WOKEN UP TODAY, NOT OUT OF CONCERN FOR PALESTINIANS, BUT OUT OF CONCERN OF MISSING POWERS, THE MOST EXTREME ELEMENT IN THE COUNTRY, AND THEREFORE THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT IT.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING, THE WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY IS ADDRESSING THE REPORTERS AND SHE HAS SAID THAT TRUMP HAS NOT COMMITTED TO PLACING AMERICAN TROOPS ON THE GROUND, NOR WOULD WE PAY FOR IT.

SO, WHO IS GOING TO DO IT?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW THERE ARE PRIVATE CONTRACTORS, AMERICAN CONTRACTORS RIGHT NOW, BEING REPORTED.

THEY ARE PATROLLING THE CORRIDOR, A BIG SWATH OF TERRITORY THAT ISRAEL CONTROLS AT THE MOMENT BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH, THAT IS POLICED BY THESE AMERICAN CONTRACTORS.

WHEN YOU THINK OF IF THIS IS SERIOUS AND HOW IT WILL BE IMPLEMENTED, DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> WELL, WE ARE USED TO THE IDEA OF USING MISSIONARIES, WE HAVE THE EXAMPLE OF -- WELL, IT DIDN'T TURN OUT FOR AMERICA AND IRAQ.

>> IT NEVER TURNS OUT WELL, EXACTLY.

AND LOTS OF PEOPLE PROFIT, SURE.

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE WAR PROFITEERS, BUT WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THEM?

AND I THINK THIS IDEA, AND WE JUST HEARD THE FORMER SAUDI INTELLIGENCE CHIEF PRINCE TURKI, AND HE CALLED THIS A MAD ETHNIC CLEANSING PLAN.

WE HAVE SEEN CROWN PRINCE MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN REFER TO WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IN GAZA AS GENOCIDE.

SO, IF AMERICA THINGS THAT THESE GULF ARABS ARE GOING TO PAY FOR PRIVATE CONTRACTORS TO FIGHT WITH HAMAS TO CLEAR OUT PALESTINIANS TO REBUILD THIS, YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK?

THAT IS RACISM.

IT SHOWS THE CONTEMPT WITH WHICH THEY TREAT THESE PEOPLE, AND LET'S ALSO BE VERY CLEAR, FIRST, I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, CHRISTIANE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT ISRAEL HAS NOT SUCCEEDED IN THIS.

BUT, IF THEY TRIED, IT IS NOT GOING TO END WITH GAZA, THE WEST BANK IS THE DRAW IN THE CROWN FOR THIS SAME COHORT, VERY SIGNIFICANT, AND IT IS GOING TO BE.

THAT IS WHY YOU ARE FEELING SO MUCH ANXIETY, I THINK, IN THE REGION.

THIS IS EXPOSING THOSE LEADERS.

SOME OF THESE ALLIED OR PUTATIVE ALLIED STATES COULD BECOME FRONTLINE RESISTANT STATES, AND THAT IS DANGEROUS FOR ISRAEL.

>> I ALSO ASKED DR. ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF THAT GOING ON RIGHT NOW AND HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST 15 MONTHS, EVER SINCE OCTOBER 7th AND BEFORE THESE RELENTLESS ATTACKS ON VARIOUS PALESTINIAN VILLAGES, AND -- >> IN THE WEST BANK.

>> IN THE WEST BANK.

AND TRUMP HAS SAID, IN A MONTH, I HE SAID, HE WILL ANNOUNCE WHETHER HE ALLOWS ISRAEL TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK.

I MEAN, DOES THAT FORMULATE EVEN -- CAN TRUMP, AS THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, ALLOW A LAND GRAB?

I MEAN, HOW DOES IT WORK?

>> LET'S DECONSTRUCT THAT, RIGHT?

SO, IN TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, OF COURSE IT DOESN'T WORK.

INTERNATIONAL LAW IS NOT EXACTLY THE BEACON THAT SHINES ON THE HEAD OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, IT WASN'T TRUE OF THE LAST PRESIDENT, EITHER.

SO, LEGALLY, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

BUT, WHAT ABOUT PRACTICALLY?

AGAIN, WHO IS GOING TO GO IN, AND FIGHT, AND KILL, AND BE KILLED?

>> THIS IS THE ISRAELIS TAKING OVER THE ANNEX.

>> YES, BUT IF ISRAEL TAKES OVER, THEN PRECISELY, WHAT MUSTAFA SAID.

AND THIS IS WHERE IT IS QUITE A CLEAR FAULT LINE.

IF YOU TAKE IT OVER, TWO STATES IS OFF THE TABLE, ISRAEL HAS TAKEN IT OFF THE TABLE, AMERICA HAS TAKEN IT OFF THE TABLE.

>> YOU THINK IT WAS OFF THE TABLE ANYWAY, AFTER LAST NIGHT?

>> I THINK IT WAS OFF THE TABLE WITH THE GUIDELINES OF THIS GOVERNMENT AND EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON.

IF THAT IS OFF THE TABLE, YOU HAVE PERMANENT, SEPARATE, UNEQUAL APARTHEID, OR WHEN WE GET INTO THIS KIND OF A ZERO- SUM PLACE, WHEN ETHNIC CLEANSING IS PUT ON THE TABLE AS LEGITIMATE, YOU ARE IN REALLY DANGEROUS, TREACHEROUS TERRITORY, BECAUSE IT MAY START WITH THE IDEA THAT THE PALESTINIANS SHOULD BE REMOVED, BUT THE ISRAELIS ARE MAKING THEMSELVES UNOBSERVABLE IN THIS REGION.

WHEN NETANYAHU LEAVES, PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL STILL HAVE MEXICANS, AND CANADIANS, AND FISH ON HIS BORDERS.

NETANYAHU WILL GO HOME TO A WORLD IN THE WEST ASIA, MIDDLE EAST REGION -- WHICH HAS BEEN WATCHING ON THEIR SOCIAL MEDIA DEVICES, THE HORRORS, OFTEN ISRAELIS INCRIMINATING THEMSELVES -- THE HORRORS OF WHAT HAS GONE ON IN GAZA.

THESE PEOPLE ARE SEETHING.

THEY ARE IN NO MOOD TO SAY, "OH, YOU KNOW WHAT?

LET'S NORMALIZE TODAY."

I THINK NORMALIZATION HAS BEEN KICKED IN.

AND TO GO MUCH FURTHER, I THINK WHAT WE ARE HASTENING IS A CHOICE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SHOW THIS LAND BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE HAS BEEN TAKEN OFF THE TABLE.

>> CAN I JUST QUICKLY SWITCH GEARS, OR SWITCH NATIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

THE OTHER REGIONAL HEAVYWEIGHT IS IRAN, WHICH OBVIOUSLY HAS BEEN DEALT A LOT OF BLOWS BY ISRAEL, AND OTHERS, OVER THE LAST 15 MONTHS.

BUT, TRUMP SAID LAST NIGHT THE FOLLOWING ABOUT IRAN.

I'M GOING TO PLAY IT.

>> THEY CAN'T HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

BEYOND THAT, IT WOULD BE VERY TOUGH IF THEY INSIST ON DOING THAT.

THEY HAVE SOME OF THEIR LEADERSHIP, I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, AND MAYBE YOU KNOW IT, MAYBE YOU DON'T, BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE AT THE TOP RANKS OF IRAN THAT DO NOT WANT TO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS, FOR THAT VERY REASON.

>> SO, THIS WAS KIND OF IGNORED IN THE CRAZINESS OVER THE OTHER STUFF, BUT THIS IS A BIG DEPARTURE FOR ANY AMERICAN PRESIDENT, AND ANY IS REALLY -- ISREALI PRIME MINISTER, OR, AT LEAST THIS ONE.

THEY HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY STICKING BY THE NOTION THAT IRAN WANTS A NUCLEAR WEAPON, AND THEREFORE WE HAVE TO DO THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER.

HOW SURPRISED ARE YOU THAT HE SAID THAT?

>> SO, THIS IS FASCINATING.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RESTRAINER MAKE A DEAL CAMP IN THIS ADMINISTRATION WHEN IT COMES TO PALESTINIANS.

THE ECOSYSTEM THERE IS OVERWHELMINGLY HOSTILE TO PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, PERMISSIVE OF ANYTHING ISRAEL WANTS TO DO.

BUT, YOU DO HAVE THAT DIVISION INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION WHEN IT COMES TO IRAN.

AND IN THAT RESPECT, NETANYAHU REALLY DIDN'T HEAR WHAT HE WANTED TO HEAR, ON IRAN.

I THINK THAT IS OKAY FOR HIM.

HE HAS GOTTEN SUCH A POLITICAL BEAST, AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN ISRAEL, BECAUSE POLITICALLY, IT MATTERS SO MUCH MORE.

BUT, THE PRESIDENT SAID THREE THINGS ON IRAN, FIRST OF ALL, HE SAID IRAN IS STRONG, THE ISRAELI NARRATIVE IS THAT IRAN IS WEAK.

SECONDLY, LIKE YOU SAID, HE MADE THE STATEMENT WHICH ABSOLUTELY CALLS WITH WHAT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE HAS BEEN TELLING US FIGURES, THAT YOU WILL KNOW, THAT IRAN HAS NOT MADE THE DECISION TO ACTUALLY WEAPON EYES A NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

AND THIRDLY, HE CAME OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA TODAY AND SAID, IN CAPITALS, I AM PARAPHRASING, WE ARE NOT GOING TO ATTACK IRAN WITH THE ISRAELIS.

SO, ON IRAN, THE PIVOT SEEMS QUITE SIGNIFICANT TOWARD DEALMAKING.

REMEMBER, SAUDI AND IRAN HAVE THIS CHINESE BROKERED WEAPONS.

IT FEELS TO ME LIKE AMERICA WILL KNOW AMERICA, YOU HAVE A REGION THAT WANTS TO MOVE ON AND YOU HAVE AN ISRAEL THAT WANTS TO PULL EVERYONE BACK INTO WAR AND THAT IS A TERRIBLE PLACE FOR ISRAEL TO BE.

>> IT IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

DANIEL LEIGH BE, THANK YOU SO MUCH, ON THE SCRABBLE DAY EVERY ACTION AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS COMING FROM THE MOST POWERFUL PODIUM IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS THE LIGHTHOUSE.

>>> MEANTIME IN WASHINGTON, D TRUMP MUSK DEMOLITION PROCESS AGAINST ENEMIES PROCEEDS AT PACE.

THE NEW JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS EXTRACTED FROM THE FBI, COMPLIANCE TO HANDOVER DETAILS OF 5000 EMPLOYEES WHO WORKED ON THE JANUARY 6th INVESTIGATIONS, AS THEY FEAR RETRIBUTION AND EVEN TERMINATION.

THIS FOLLOWS WNET'S DAY ONE PARDONS FOR THOUSANDS OF WRITERS, OF COURSE, MANY OF THEM WERE ARRESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED, AND SENTENCED IN U.S. COURT FOR THEIR ACTIONS ON THAT DAY FOUR YEARS AGO.

A LONGTIME PUBLIC DEFENDER WHO HAS REPRESENTED DOZENS OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO TELL US WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED FROM THAT WORK.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

HEATHER SHANER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH OUR SPIRIT >> NICE TO MEET YOU.

>> MRS. SHANER, HOW WE FOUND YOU IS YOU WERE PROFILED IN A NEW YORKER DOCUMENTARY CALLED "PUBLIC DEFENDER."

THE PIECE -- AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS A COMPANION PIECE THAT FOLLOWED IN THE MAGAZINE THAT DESCRIBED YOUR WORK DEFENDING SOME OF THE JANUARY 6th DEFENDANTS.

SO, I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

HOW DID YOU COME TO HAVE THESE CLIENTS?

>> I AM WHAT IS CALLED A COURT APPOINTED PUBLIC DEFENDER.

I AM NOT ACTUALLY IN THE PHYSICAL OFFICE OF THE FEDERAL DEFENDER.

THERE IS A SMALL PANEL OF ATTORNEYS WHO ACCEPT CASES, AND THERE WERE OVER 1000 CASES COMING FROM THE FEDERAL DEFENDER'S OFFICE.

SO, MICHEL PETERSON ASKED IF I WOULD TAKE SOME.

SHE WAS THE HEAD OF THE OFFICE, IN TERMS OF THE JANUARY 6th CASES.

AND I SAID I WOULD, EXCEPT I DID NOT WANT TO REPRESENT ANYONE WHO HAD INJURED A POLICE OFFICER.

>> OKAY, SO, DID YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, AT ALL?

I KNOW YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD A REDLINE AND THAT REDLINE WAS YOU WEREN'T GOING TO REPRESENT ANYBODY WHO HAD ASSAULTED THE POLICE.

BUT, DID YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, AT ALL?

>> ON JANUARY 6th, LIKE EVERYONE IN D.C., I WAS HORRIFIED AND TERRIFIED, AND DID NOT PLAN TO REPRESENT ANY OF THE RIOTERS.

BUT, AS THE DAYS PASSED, AND I WAS ASKED, "WOULD I DO IT?"

I DECIDED THEY ALSO REQUIRED A LAWYER TO PROTECT THEIR LIBERTY RIGHTS.

>> HOW DID THEIR CASES COME TO YOU?

I MEAN, HOW MANY HAVE YOU HAD SO FAR?

DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT, THAT YOU HAVE HAD MORE THAN 40?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YES, ABOUT 45.

>> HOW DO PEOPLE RECEIVE YOU?

WERE PEOPLE GENERALLY HAPPY TO HEAR FROM YOU, OR NOT?

>> WELL, A FEW OF THE PEOPLE AT THE VERY BEGINNING ONLY WANTED A LAWYER WHO WOULD REPRESENT THEM, BASED ON THE CONSTITUTION OF 1776, AND THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT VERY MUCH WHEN I TOLD THEM THERE WAS NO UNITED STATES, LET ALONE CONSTITUTION, IN 1776.

MOST OF THE DEFENDANTS WERE TERRIFIED, BECAUSE MOST OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED WERE UNINTENTIONAL RIOTERS.

THEY CAME FROM THE MIDLANDS, AND DID NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING INTO ON JANUARY 6th.

AND THEY WERE THRILLED TO HAVE A LAWYER TO HELP THEM.

A LOT OF THEM WERE A LITTLE SMARTER, AND THEY WOULD GOOGLE AND FIND OUT WHO I WAS, AND WHEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT I GAVE BOOKS IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND READING MATERIALS TO MY CLIENTS, THEY EITHER REALLY WANTED TO DO THAT, OR THEY THOUGHT THEY NEEDED ANOTHER LAWYER.

>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT APPROACH, BY THE WAY, GIVING YOUR CLIENTS READING MATERIALS, AND THINGS OF THAT SORT?

I KNOW I SAW IT IN THE DOCUMENTARY, I SAW YOU HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS, SO CLEARLY YOU ARE A READER, YOURSELF.

BUT, HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT IDEA?

>> THROUGHOUT 40 YEARS, I ALWAYS GAVE BOOKS TO MY CLIENTS, BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE INCARCERATED, THE WAY YOU CAN ESCAPE YOUR PRISON CELL IS YOU CAN READ A BOOK, AND IT CAN TAKE YOU AROUND THE WORLD, IT CAN TAKE YOU INTO THE FUTURE, IT CAN TAKE YOU BACK THROUGH HISTORY, AND IT GAVE A LOT OF SOLACE TO MY CLIENTS.

FOR THE JANUARY 6th PEOPLE, IT WAS AN AWFUL LOT OF CIVICS, EDUCATION THAT THEY NEEDED, AND ALSO, I THOUGHT THAT THEY NEEDED A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD, TO LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEMS.

>> YOU SAID ALL OF THEM WERE KIND OF UNINTENTIONAL RIOTERS.

WHAT YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THAT?

>> I SAY THAT BECAUSE I DIDN'T REPRESENT MEMBERS OF THE OATH KEEPERS, OR PROUD BOYS, OR THOSE WHO HAD THE 1776, THE THREE PRESENTERS.

THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED CAME FROM SMALL TOWNS IN EASTERN WASHINGTON, CENTRAL FLORIDA, EASTERN TEXAS, INDIANA, ILLINOIS.

THEY DID NOT HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE THE CAPITAL THAT DAY.

THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

THEY MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HAPPENED ON ELECTION NIGHT, WHEN IT WOULD SHOW TRUMP UP, THEN TRUMPED DOWN, THEY THOUGHT IT WAS ALL MANIPULATED BY "THE DEEP STATE."

AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE DEEP STATE DIDN'T EXIST.

MOST OF THEM ONLY HAD ACCESS TO THE INTERNET AND FAR RIGHT MEDIA, AND IF YOU REPEAT A LIE OFTEN ENOUGH, THESE PEOPLE BELIEVED IT.

SO, THEY CAME TO WASHINGTON BECAUSE TRUMP SAID, "COME ON."

AND EITHER THEY CAME TO SAVE AMERICA, OR THEY CAME BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE A BIG PARTY.

AND WHEN THEY ARRIVED, THEY APPARENTLY WERE SERVED A LOT OF ALCOHOL, AND THEY ALSO -- AND AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT THE CAPITAL WERE SMOKING MARIJUANA.

SO, YOU HAD PEOPLE WHO WERE A LITTLE INEBRIATED.

THEY WERE INTOXICATED, BUT BEING SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THEM, RATHER THAN FAMILY MEMBERS AND OTHERS WHO, SINCE NOVEMBER, WERE TELLING THEM THAT THEIR IDEAS WERE COCKAMAMIE.

AND THEY GOT ALL HYPED ON ADRENALINE, WENT INTO THE CAPITAL, SCREAMED AND YELLED, MARCHED AROUND, "THIS IS OUR HOUSE, THIS IS OUR HOUSE."

WENT HOME, SAW THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF RIOTERS WHO HAD DONE TERRIBLE THINGS, AND A LARGE NUMBER OF MY CLIENTS WERE UPSET WHEN THEY SAW THE DESTRUCTION THAT OTHER INDIVIDUALS HAD ENGAGED IN.

AND THE VIOLENCE.

>> OKAY, SO, BUT, WHEN YOU SAID THEY ONLY HAD ACCESS TO FAR RIGHT MEDIA, I MEAN, IF THEY HAD ACCESS TO THE INTERNET, THEY HAD ACCESS TO EVERYTHING, WHICH MEANS THEY COULD HAVE SOUGHT OUT OTHER INFORMATION, SO THEY WERE CHOOSING TO FOCUS ON THAT PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW.

SO, I DON'T KNOW, WHY SHOULD PEOPLE HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THAT?

>> OH, I DON'T SAY YOU SHOULD HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THEM.

BUT, YOU SURE WANT TO EDUCATE THEM.

YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE, QUESTION THEM AS TO THEIR SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND WHY THEY BELIEVE IT, AND FIND OUT IF THEY ARE WILLING TO READ ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW, TO BE EDUCATED A LITTLE, THAT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO INTERPRET THE ELECTION.

THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO INTERPRET WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE WORLD.

>> AND IN THE NEW YORKER DOCUMENTARY, AND IN THE PIECE THAT ACCOMPANIED IT, THEY PROFILED JUST TWO OF THE 45 CLIENTS THAT YOU REPRESENTED.

THEY HAD DIFFERENT STORIES.

JUST, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WILL YOU TELL ME ABOUT THEM?

TELL ME ABOUT ANNIE HOWELL?

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS SOLICITED IN WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA BY ANY NAMED FRANK WREN, AND HE WAS A FAR RIGHT OPERATIVE.

HE SENT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TO WASHINGTON ON JANUARY 6th, IN BUSES.

BETWEEN THE ELECTION IN 2020 AND JANUARY 6th, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAD BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN POLITICS.

SHE MET ERIC TRUMP, SHE MET HANNITY, SHE COLLECTED AFFIDAVITS FROM PEOPLE TO PROVE THERE WAS VOTING FRAUD.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS INITIALLY CHARGED WITH FELONY.

AND MISDEMEANORS.

>> AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AS I RECALL, MANY PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW HER NAME BECAUSE SHE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, AND -- SO, IF YOU WOULD REMIND PEOPLE, LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED IN HER CASE?

>> I WAS LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE DOWN TO MISDEMEANOR PLEASE.

JUDGE HOGAN, NONETHELESS, FELT THAT HER PARTICIPATION IN THE RIOT WAS INTENTIONAL, EVEN IF SHE HAD CHANGED HER VIEWS SINCE THEN.

AND HE SENTENCED HER TO 60 DAYS IN JAIL.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE FIRST THING SHE DID AFTER WE MET, WAS GET A LIBRARY CARD.

AND WHILE SHE WAS INCARCERATED, SHE READ A BOOK A DAY.

AND SHE SAID HER LIFE WAS TOTALLY CHANGED, AND SHE WAS A BIG READER NOW, AND SHE HAD BEEN MORE EDUCATED IN THE YEAR SINCE I BEGAN TO REPRESENT HER, THEN IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

>> THE OTHER CLIENT PROFILED IN THE PIECE WAS JACK GRIFFITH, KIND OF A DIFFERENT STORY.

WHAT IS HIS STORY?

>> JACK CAME TO D.C. FROM TENNESSEE.

HE WAS PRETTY ADDICTED TO THE INTERNET, AND HIS GOAL IN LIFE WAS TO HAVE GOOD ABS AND A LOT OF FOLLOWERS.

HE CAME TO WASHINGTON, D.C. FOR THE PARTY.

HE VIDEOED HIMSELF SCREAMING, AND YELLING, AND MAKING ALL KINDS OF NOISE, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET INTERNET FOLLOWERS.

AND HE WAS ZERO POLITICAL, ZERO INFORMED, AND HE WASN'T REGISTERED TO VOTE.

JACK WAS ONLY EVER CHARGED WITH MISDEMEANORS, AND HE WAS SENTENCED TO, I THINK, NINE DAYS OF HOME CONFINEMENT, AND HE NEVER WENT TO JAIL.

JACK WAS OFFERED BOOKS, AND HE NEVER READ ANYTHING.

HE STILL DIDN'T FLOAT -- VOTE IN THE LAST ELECTION, BECAUSE HE IS STILL NOT REGISTERED.

BUT, I THINK HE IS PRODUCING A VIDEO GAME, IN HONOR OF TRUMP.

>> THE PEOPLE YOU REPRESENTED, DID YOU SEE, WAS THERE KIND OF A THROUGH LINE THERE, BEYOND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, THAT MOST OF THEM DIDN'T REALLY MEAN TO -- OR, AT LEAST THE CIRCUMSTANCES SUGGEST THEY DIDN'T REALLY MEAN TO BE A PART OF ALL OF THAT?

>> THE ONE THING THAT I THINK CHARACTERIZES THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED -- NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT A LOT OF THEM -- IS THERE WAS SOME HEALTH ISSUES.

ALMOST EVERY YOUNG MAN, OLD MAN, WOMAN I DEALT WITH, BY THE TIME WE GOT -- YOU STARTED OUT WITH PRETRIAL SERVICES AND YOU FIND OUT, DO THEY HAVE ANY MENTAL HEALTH OR DRUG CONCERNS?

THEN, YOU GET TO KNOW THEM OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

THEN, THEY ARE INTERVIEWED FOR PROBATION IF THEY PLEAD GUILTY, AND THERE IS A VERY THOROUGH PROBATION INVESTIGATION, INCLUDING MEDICAL ISSUES.

THE TWO SOLDIERS I REPRESENTED HAD SEVERE PTSD, AND DEPRESSION, AND ANXIETY.

THE MAJORITY OF THE OTHER INDIVIDUALS I REPRESENTED HAD, ALSO, PTSD FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA, ADHD, DID NOT SUCCEED IN SCHOOL, HAD A VARIETY OF OTHER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, THE MOST COMMON ONE.

SO, THAT WAS A FACTOR THAT IMPACTED THEIR CHOICES.

THEY WERE ISOLATED AND ALONE DURING COVID.

THEY BECAME ACTIVE WITHIN POLITICAL GROUPS DURING THAT TIME, TO HELP REMOVE SOME OF THE ISOLATION.

I HAD ONE GUY FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK FROM SYRACUSE, AND HE WAS ALONE THROUGHOUT COVID, UNTIL HE WAS SOLICITED ONLINE TO A FAR RIGHT CHAT GROUP, AND IT GAVE HIM COMFORT.

AND THEY HAD A BREAK IN THEIR EDUCATION, AND HAD, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, CHOSEN MISINFORMATION.

>> YOU KNOW ONE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST OFFICIAL ACTS UPON TAKING OFFICE WAS TO PARDON NEARLY ALL OF THE 1600 PEOPLE IN CONNECTION WITH JANUARY 6th, AND HE, YOU KNOW, COMMUTED OTHERS.

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ASSAULTED POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY CONVICTED CONSPIRACIES OR NOT, AND WHETHER THERE WERE PRIOR ACTS OF VIOLENCE.

IT EMERGES THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE DID HAVE SIGNIFICANT PRIOR ACTS OF VIOLENCE.

SO, I DON'T KNOW, HOW DO YOU FEEL, NOW?

I MEAN -- >> NONE OF MY CLIENTS WROTE TO ME BEFORE JANUARY 20th AND SAID, "MS. SHANER, CAN YOU GET ME ONE OF THOSE PARDONS?"

NOT ONE!

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IN FACT, WASN'T INTERESTED AND DIDN'T WANT A PARDON.

INITIALLY, WHEN THE PARDONS WERE ISSUED, THEY FELT LIKE ALL THE WORK I HAD DONE WITH MY CLIENTS, AND ALL THE EDUCATION, AND FRIENDSHIP, AND LOVE WE HAD SHARED, AND THE DOCUMENTARY ITSELF, THE WORK IT WAS DOING WAS INVALIDATED.

AND I WAS VERY UPSET.

I THOUGHT THAT THE PARDONS ARE JUST A SHOW BY THE SHOWMEN IN THE CAPITAL, IN THE WHITE HOUSE RIGHT NOW.

AND IT IS A VERY BAD IDEA.

HOWEVER, IF, IN ANY WAY, IT LEADS TOWARD RECONCILIATION, THEN THAT WOULD BE GOOD.

IF WE CAN ALL ACKNOWLEDGE, AS THE JUDGES DID IN THEIR DISMISSAL ORDERS, THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, HAPPENED, AND NO DISMISSAL ORDER, NO PARDON IS GOING TO ERASE THE DAY OF INFAMY AND VIOLENCE.

IF WE CAN AGREE THAT IT OCCURRED, AND THEN MOVE ON, THEN FOR MY CLIENTS, IF THERE IS ANY BENEFIT TO THEM, SO BE IT.

THE PARDON CANNOT WHITEWASH WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.

AND JUST AS THEY SAY AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, DOCUMENT, TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH, AGREE ON FACTS, AND NEVER FORGET.

>> SO, BEFORE I LET YOU GO, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS YOUR ROLE IN THIS MOMENT?

>> WELL, I DON'T HAVE ANY MORE JANUARY 6th CLIENTS, EXCEPT THOSE WHO HAVE BECOME MY FRIENDS.

BUT, I HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG MEN AT THE D.C.

JAIL WHO ARE CHARGED WITH GUNS, AND CARJACKINGS, AND DRUGS, AND I AM GOING TO DO WHATEVER I CAN TO KEEP THEM FREE OF THE DRACONIAN PUNISHMENTS THAT COME DOWN ON YOUR HEADS, WHEN YOU DO FOOLISH THINGS BECAUSE YOU ARE 18 YEARS OLD.

>> WELL, HEATHER SHANER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.