>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY".

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> NUMEROUS POLITICAL RALLIES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OVER MANY YEARS AND I HAVE NEVER HEARD WE SHOULD RIP POOR AFRICANS OFF OF LIFE-SAVING DRUGS.

>>> AT MIDNIGHT TONIGHT USAID WILL EFFECTIVELY DISAPPEAR.

THE LATEST BELOW AS TRUMP APPENDS U.S.

FOREIGN-POLICY.

MATTHEW BARTLETT, CAN THE U.S.

AFFORD TO END ITS SOFT POWER?

>>> LATER, WE GO TO THE MOVIES.

AND NORMA STARR AND ACTRESS NOMINEE, MIKEY MEDICINE JOINS ME ON THE SET.

HOW THE TRAGICOMEDY CAME TOGETHER.

>>> ALSO, AN AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

WHY CONGRESS HAS TO PUSHBACK ON TRUMP AND ELON MUSK WEEK FOR -- BEFORE THE DAMAGE BECOMES IRREVERSIBLE.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAM, THE PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, THE FILOMEN M. DGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES.

AND FROM CONTRIBUTION TO YOUR PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, AND THIS HAS BEEN THE WEEK THAT AMERICAN FOREIGN- POLICY SEEMED TO FLIP ON ITS HEAD.

AND PARTS OF IT EVEN JUST SHUT DOWN ENTIRELY.

AT MIDNIGHT TONIGHT USAID PUTS ALMOST ALL OF ITS STAFF ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE, ONLY A FEW CRITICAL POSITIONS WILL REMAIN AT THEIR POST.

THE BILLIONAIRE TRUMP WHISPERER, ELON MUSK, IS GLEEFUL ABOUT THE CUTS, SAYING THAT THE AGENCY, WHICH IS IN FACT CRUCIAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND FOR WINNING AMERICAN CRUCIAL GOODWILL, IS BEING FED, "INTO THE WOOD CHIPPER".

OF COURSE, THIS COMES ALSO IN A WEEK WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID -- >> THE U.S. WILL TAKE OVER THE GAZA STRIP, AND WE WILL DO A JOB WITH IT TOO.

WE WILL OWN IT.

>> OPENING THE DOOR TO A POLICY THAT EXPERTS WARNED WOULD ALMOST AMOUNT TO -- WOULD AMOUNT TO THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA.

>>> AND, TAKING CONTROL OF THE STRIP ONLY FOR THE WHITE HOUSE TO LATER WALK BACK MUCH OF THAT PLAN.

ON TOP OF THAT, A PURGE OF THE FBI AND CIA APPEARS TO BE WELL UNDERWAY.

ANY ONE OF THESE ACTIONS WOULD TRANSFORM THE UNITED STATES AND ITS TRADITIONAL ROLE ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

SO, JOINING ME NOW IS MATTHEW BARTLETT, HE WAS APPOINTED TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING HIS FIRST TERM, AND WE WANT TO DISCUSS SOME OF WHAT IS GOING ON NOW.

SO, MATTHEW BARTLETT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> AND HONOR TO JOIN YOU HERE.

>> LOOK, A LOT OF PEOPLE -- I GUESS CERTAINLY AROUND THE WORLD, HAVE BEEN YOU KNOW, REALLY MADE VERY, VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND NERVOUS ABOUT USAID.

AMERICA IS THE LARGEST PROVIDER OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, AND AS YOU KNOW, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALLED BY THE U.S., A VITAL -- YOU KNOW, A TOOL OF SOFT POWER.

HOW DOES CLOSING IT DOWN, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, AFFECT THE UNITED STATES, FIRST OF ALL?

>> I GUESS THE SHORT ANSWER IS, IT IS UNCLEAR, BUT WE ARE ABOUT TO FIND OUT.

LISTEN, I AM A REPUBLICAN, I AM A CONSERVATIVE.

THERE ARE ARGUABLY SOME QUESTIONS, LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ACTIVITY OF USAID .

OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS YOU HAVE SEEN MAYBE SOME POLITICAL ACTIVISM UNDER THE BIDEN YEARS.

YOU WOULD BE NAOVE NOT TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

HE WOULD BE EQUALLY, IF NOT EVEN MORE NAOVE TO NOT RECOGNIZE THE EVERYDAY MIRACLE THAT USAID AND ITS STAFF PERFORMED AROUND THE WORLD IN TERMS OF CLEAN WATER, SANITATION, AND CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST CENTRAL TENANTS OF AMERICAN FOREIGN-POLICY OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, HIV AIDS TREATMENT AND PREVENTION.

SO THIS IS A VERY, VERY UNSETTLING NOTION.

WE HAVE SEEN EFFORTS OF REFORM.

SCRUTINY IS WELCOME AND CONTINUITY IS CRITICAL, BUT THE NOTION OF CLOSING AND EXTINGUISHING USAID IS MORE THAN DANGEROUS, IT IS DEADLY.

>> I'M GOING TO GET INTO SOME OF THAT, THOSE CRUCIAL ELEMENTS OF WHAT IT ACTUALLY DOES FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND ALSO FOR THE U.S., BUT I WANT TO FIRST PLAY THIS SORT OF A MASHUP OF SOUNDBITES ABOUT USAID AND ABOUT ESSENTIALLY YOU KNOW, TAKING IT TO THE WOOD CHIPPER AS ELON MUSK SAYS.

HE IS THE PRESIDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE AND HE IS ELON MUSK.

>> IT HAS BEEN RUN BY A BUNCH OF RADICAL LUNATICS AND WE ARE GETTING THEM OUT.

USAID, RUN BY RADICAL LUNATICS.

AND WE ARE GETTING THEM OUT.

>> THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE A GLOBAL ENTITY AND THAT THEIR MASTER IS THE GLOBE, AND NOT THE UNITED STATES.

>> AS WE DIVE INTO USAID, IT BECAME APPARENT THAT WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS NOT AN APPLE WITH A WORM IN IT, BUT WE HAVE ACTUALLY JUST A BALL OF WORMS.

>> I MEAN, MATTHEW BARTLETT, FROM WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE IS YES, THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY AND REFORM, BUT NOT THROWING THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER.

SO, JUST DESCRIBED, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT CHARACTERIZATION OF RUN BY A BUNCH OF RADICAL LUNATICS?

THAT IT IS YOU KNOW -- AN APPLE FULL OF WORMS?

>> LET'S BE CLEAR, AGAIN, I WAS A TRUMP APPOINTEE AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THE FIRST DEMONSTRATION.

WE MADE DIFFERENT CHOICES THAN THE BIDEN HARRISON ILLUSTRATION MADE.

YES, THEY WERE RUN BY A VERY PROGRESSIVE INDIVIDUAL AND IDEOLOGIES OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS.

THAT IS HOW, IN PART, HOW YOU KNOW, THE ADMINISTRATIONS CHANGE, AND THIS IS WHY, WHEN YOU NOW COME IN, A REASONABLE ADULT WOULD BE IN CHARGE, WOULD MAKE REFORMS, WOULD MAKE GOVERNMENT USAID WORK, NOT END IT.

SO AGAIN, THIS IS A MORE THAN POLITICAL PRISM.

THIS IS MORE THAN REFORM.

THIS IS HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC IN TERMS OF THE OUTCOMES THAT ARE DESIRABLE FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT USAID WAS PROBLEMATIC IN THE BIDEN HARRIS YEARS, IT IS EQUALLY IF NOT EVEN MORE PROBLEMATIC TO THAN JUST END IT.

>> SO CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE -- A COUPLE OF TIMES, AND I KNOW THAT HE DID A LOT OF WORK ON THAT HAS YOU MENTIONED IN THE FIRST TRUMP TERM.

WE KNOW IT WAS LAUNCHED BY GEORGE W. BUSH AND TO PROVIDE LIFE-SAVING CARE FOR AIDS PATIENTS AROUND THE WORLD AND IT HAS SAVED SOME 25 MILLION LIVES AROUND THE WORLD.

JUST TELL ME WHAT WILL HAPPEN, WE ARE ALREADY HEARING FROM SOUTH AFRICA AND ELSEWHERE THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING TURNED AWAY FROM USAID PROBE -- PROVIDED CARE.

WHAT IS THE END RESULT ?

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST KEY CENTRAL QUESTIONS GOING ON IN THIS TOWN AND AROUND THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK HERE.

I REAUTHORIZED OR HELPED TO REAUTHORIZE PEPFAR THROUGH A REPUBLICAN HOUSE AND SENATE AND THEN SIGNED INTO LAW BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN 2018.

THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE WENT FROM 18 MILLION LIVES TO 23 MILLION LIVES SAVED.

THAT WAS WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP YOU KNOW, OVERSAW PEPFAR.

HE CALLED FOR AN END TO HIV AIDS AND SECRETARY RUBIO HAS BEEN A LONGTIME CHAMPION OF PEPFAR, OF THE WORLD'S POOREST PEOPLE.

NOW, FLASHFORWARD, WHEN THE FOREIGN ASSISTANCE PAUSE WAS IMMEDIATELY PUT INTO PLACE, IT TOOK A FEW DAYS TO HAVE SECRETARY RUBIO ISSUE A WAIVER FOR PEPFAR TO ENSURE THE LIFE- SAVING PROGRAM WILL CONTINUE ON, BUT IT IS A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT BECAUSE PEPFAR IS IMPLEMENTED BY CDC AND USAID ON THE GROUND.

WHEN MONIES ARE FROZEN, DRUGS CANNOT GET OUT AND PREVENTION CANNOT TAKE PLACE AND AGAIN, THIS THROWS THE ENTIRE PROGRAM INTO PERIL.

>> AND MATTHEW BARTLETT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE USING PEPFAR IS A VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE, BUT HAS YOU KNOW AND FOR OUR VIEWERS TO KNOW, USAID DOES LIFE-SAVING IN EVERY OTHER ASPECT AS WELL, WHETHER IT IS FOR WOMEN, NEONATAL, POSTNATAL, MALNUTRITION, ALL OF THOSE KIND OF THINGS.

I HAVE COVERED THEM THROUGHOUT MY CAREER ACTUALLY ON THE GROUND AND I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK AMERICA TO OUR CAMERAS AND I HAVE SEEN THE POWER OF THAT SOFT POWER.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK, TO AMERICA IF THAT NO LONGER TAKES PLACE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BACKLASH MIGHT BE FROM THE WORLD?

>> IT IS UNCLEAR, BUT LET'S BE CLEAR.

SOME OF THE PROGRAM AT USAID WILL NOT BE PICKED UP.

SOME OF THE IDEOLOGICAL PROGRAMMING WILL NOT BE PUSHED BY OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT THE CRITICAL SERVICES THAT KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE ARE THE ONES THAT WILL REALLY HAVE JEOPARDY.

AND THEN BEYOND THAT, FOREIGN- POLICY IS ALWAYS A MIX OF THE CARROT AND STICK.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS PLAY OUT AROUND THE WORLD OVER 20 YEARS.

LET'S JUST REMEMBER THAT THE CARROT IS A LOT CHEAPER THAN THE STICK.

>> THAT IS A REALLY -- SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> MANY OF THESE LESSONS YOU KNOW, WERE LEARNED THE VERY HARD WAY, IN A POST-WORLD WAR II WORLD WHERE THE GREATEST GENERATION WENT AND FOUGHT AND SAVE THE WORLD FROM GERMANY AND WHAT DID THEY DO AFTERWARDS?

THEY LAUNCHED THE MARSHALL PLAN, IMF, WORLD BANK, INSTITUTIONS THAT CREATED STABILITY, NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF EUROPE AND THE WORLD, BUT FOR THE UNITED STATES OWN PEACE AND PROSPERITY.

>> AND I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING TO THIS ORGANIZATION WITH ALL THE CAVEATS YOU HAVE MADE ABOUT VARIOUS IDEOLOGICAL THINGS AS WELL, BUT LET ME JUST READ WHAT THE AUTHOR WHO SERVED USAID UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN WHO REQUIRED SOME REFORMS.

HE SAID LOOK, WE DID WORK BATTLING -- AND IT WILL STOP A DEADLY OUTBREAK IN TANZANIA AND A WIDE IN POT -- AND POX VARIANT AND STOP MONITORING BIRD FLU IN 49 COUNTRIES.

IT WILL CUT SUPPORT AIDING SOME 90 MILLION WOMEN AND CHILDREN WITH VACCINATIONS, PRENATAL CARE, SAFE CHILDBIRTH, ETC.

SO, AND I GUESS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY YOU THINK IT IS HAPPENING IN THIS WAY.

WHY SO RADICAL?

WHY SO ABSOLUTE?

>> I MEAN, IF YOU TAKE A LARGE ATMOSPHERIC APPROACH TO THIS, CERTAINLY THROUGH THE PRISM OF THE LAST ELECTION, WE HAVE SEEN PLACES IN AMERICA, WITH PRESSURES, DOMESTICALLY ON THE ECONOMY, ON THE MIDDLE CLASS, ON DISASTER ZONES, YET FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS YOU SAW BILLIONS AND TRILLIONS AFTER TRILLIONS ANNOUNCED FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THE SET OF PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT.

THIS NOW HAS A BIT OF A BACKLASH.

AND WHEN YOU DO FIND MISINFORMATION AND SOME -- SOME ARE LEGITIMATE.

AGAIN, INSTANCES OF MISUSE OF FUNDS, THERE IS A GRAVE FRUSTRATION AND ANGER.

I'M NOT HERE TO DEFEND THAT, NOR AM I HERE TO DEFEND BUREAUCRACY, BUT WHAT WE, AS EVEN CONSERVATIVES CAN AFFIRM, IS THE OUTCOMES, THE OUTCOMES OF WHAT USAID CAN DO, SHOULD DO AND WHAT PEPFAR IS DOING EVERY DAY IS UNDOUBTEDLY, IN THE SPIRIT OF OUR NATION, AND IT MAKES US A BETTER, SAFER, MORE PROSPEROUS NATION.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE CONTRADICTION FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION, YOU HAD A PRESS CONFERENCE THAT ENDED THE OTHER DAY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKING ABOUT REBUILDING A NATIONSTATE.

SO AGAIN, TO SAY THAT FOREIGN AID IS GOING TO BE DONE AWAY WITH, THERE IS NO VALUE, AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND TO SAY ONE OF MY KEY SIGNATURES WILL BE TO GO INTO THE MIDDLE EAST FOR REBUILDING.

IT IS PERPLEXING, IT IS CONFUSING AND THAT IS WHY IT IS CRITICAL THAT WE BE CRYSTAL CLEAR ON THE NEED FOR NOT JUST REFORMS, BUT FOR CRITICAL, CRITICAL SERVICES, CONTINUITY WHILE THIS HAPPENS.

>> I WANT TO PICK UP ON A VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT OF IT, YOU SAID YOU KNOW, THE PERCEPTION THAT TOO MUCH MONEY IS BEING SPENT BY AMERICA TO SERVE THE UNDERPRIVILEGED ABROAD, BUT AS YOU KNOW IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, IT ESSENTIALLY -- FOREIGN AID, KAISER FOUNDATION POLL FOUND AMERICANS BELIEVE ABOUT ONE THIRD OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING GOES TO FOREIGN AID, WHEN THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS LESS THAN 1%.

SO, MISINFORMATION IS RIGHT THERE.

IT IS A VERY SMALL AMOUNT ACCORDING TO A MULTITRILLION DOLLAR U.S. BUDGET AND IT HAS SERVED THE AMERICAN -- YOU KNOW, STATE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, PEOPLE VERY WELL.

BUT, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A MISSED OPPORTUNITY BY MANY GOVERNMENTS AND ADMINISTRATIONS ON BOTH SIDES TO PROPERLY EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHAT ACTUALLY THEY DO SPEND ON FOREIGN AID, AND WHAT IT DOES?

BECAUSE I CAN ALREADY SEE REPORTS OF MARCO RUBIO, THERE HAS BEEN GUATEMALA AND ELITE TRANSCRIPT OF WHAT HE SAID TO USAID WORKERS THERE AND HE ADMITTED THAT THIS DOES A LOT OF GOOD WORK AND IT IS A CRUCIAL ARM OF FOREIGN-POLICY.

>> ABSOLUTELY, OF COURSE.

AND I WOULD JUST BE CLEAR THAT YOU KNOW, I DO NOT BLAME THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THERE SHOULD BE SCRUTINY.

THIS IS NOT THE WORLD'S MONEY, THIS IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S MONEY, THIS IS THE TAXPAYER DOLLARS.

WHEN I WAS THERE THAT IS HOW WE VIEWED EACH AND EVERY DOLLAR SPENT.

AND I HAVE BEEN TO NUMEROUS POLITICAL RALLIES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OVER MANY MANY YEARS AND I HAVE NEVER ONCE HEARD WE SHOULD RIP POOR AFRICANS OFF OF LIFE-SAVING DRUGS.

NEVER EVER IN MY -- I AM PROUD TO SAY THAT.

THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

I WOULD COUNTER THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN DIFFERENT DECISIONS THAT MAY USE USAID FUNDING IN QUESTIONABLE WAYS.

YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT IS ENTIRELY DETRIMENTAL THOSE ANECDOTES, STORIES AND FACTS ARE PROBLEMATIC ON THE WHOLE.

AND, AGAIN, WHILE I AM YOU KNOW, CASTING BLAME ON SOME OF THESE DECISIONS, ALSO ACKNOWLEDGING THAT MANY OF THIS IS TWISTED, TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT MISINFORMATION OR MAYBE EVEN DISINFORMATION TO TRY TO KILL USAID AROUND OTHER IDEOLOGY.

SO THIS IS A VERY FROTHY MIX RIGHT NOW.

>> IT IS NOT LOST THAT ACTUALLY THERE IS AN ACCOUNTABILITY MECHANISM.

THE INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT INSPECTORS, WHICH WERE ALL FIRED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

SO IT IS BIZARRE TO UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT LET ME TAKE YOU TO ANOTHER SITUATION THAT YOU JUST WITNESSED.

SAYING NO TO THE LIFE-SAVING DOLLARS AND ALSO SAYING WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER GAZA AND WE ARE GOING TO BUILD IT OR WHATEVER THEY ARE SAYING NOW, IT IS HARD TO TELL BECAUSE IT IS BACK AND FORWARD.

WHAT DO YOU -- AS A STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL, WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEARD THAT PRESS CONFERENCE?

>> YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP CONTINUES TO BE AN INTERESTING FIGURE, NOT JUST ON THE GLOBAL SCALE, BUT ALSO IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO CAME TO POWER IN 2015, 2016, BASED AROUND A MUSLIM AND YET HIS FIRST TRIP WAS TO THE REGION, SAUDI ARABIA.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO CRAFTED PEACE AND TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE AND THE RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL AND THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS AND MANY PEOPLE DOING THE HARD WORK THAT WE HAVE SEEN ALL TOO WELL AND UNFORTUNATELY, THINGS CAN FALL APART AND WAR CAN BE A NATIONAL NATURAL STATE AND PEACE IS HARD WORK.

HE SAW A BRIGHT SPOT WHEN YOU HAD BOTH THE BIDEN AND TRUMP ADMINISTRATIONS LEADING TO A CEASE-FIRE.PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THE RESPECT OF ISRAEL AND THE ARAB WORLD.

AND THAT WAS -- IN THE PAST, HOPEFULLY IT CARRIES ON TODAY.

YOU HAVE A TASK OF PEACE AND ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT CHALLENGES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

BUT THEN YOU SAW A PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE AGAIN, IT IS NOT JUST WHAT THE PLAN IS, BUT HOW YOU COMMUNICATE IT, AND WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP STARTED TALKING ABOUT OCCUPYING, OR MAYBE EVEN OWNING GAZA.

IT IS HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC.

IT IS HIGHLY ALARMING.

TWO OUR ALLIES, TO THE ENTIRE REGION.

SO, WE JUST NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT THIS HAS BEEN A HORRIFIC TIME IN THE MIDDLE EAST FOR ISRAEL, PALESTINE, AND IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A LASTING PEACE, THE PALESTINIANS YOU KNOW, NEED TO BE A PART OF THEIR OWN FUTURE IN THEIR OWN LAND AND IF THERE IS SOME UPSIDE HERE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE LOOKING AT PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO IS SHOWING AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT , WHO WANTS THAT PIECE AND CERTAINLY ONCE A BETTER PLACE AND LIFE FOR PALESTINIANS AS WELL.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT HE IÃI MEAN, HE HAS WALKED IT BACK TO AN EXTENT, THAT HE WOULD COUNTENANCE A FORCIBLE REMOVAL OF THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION?

DO YOU THINK, IF THAT WAS THE CASE, IT BASICALLY WOULD AMOUNT TO WHAT THEY'RE CALLING ETHNIC CLEANSING?

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY INSTEAD OF THE HYPOTHETICALS.

THE STATEMENTS WERE MADE -- AGAIN, I BELIEVE, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO GIVE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, THIS WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEVASTATION OF GAZA AND THE ROLE THE U.S. IS WILLING TO PLAY.

IF YOU ARE BEING INTELLECTUALLY HONEST, THEY WERE MORE THAN INFLAMMATORY, MORE THAN PROBLEMATIC, AND THEN BEYOND THAT, THEY WERE PANNED BY NOT JUST YOU KNOW, INTERNATIONALLY, BY PLAYERS IN THE REGION, BY THE SAUDI'S, BY THE JORDANIANS, BUT IF YOU LOOK POLITICALLY SPEAKING, I HAVE NEVER SEEN NOT JUST THE LEFT, BUT ALSO THE RIGHT SPEAKING OUT FROM CAPITOL HILL AND SENATORS AND FROM JOSH HOLLY TO LINDSEY GRAHAM AND SENATOR KRAMER SAYING THAT THIS MAY NOT BE A WISE IDEA.

AND AGAIN TO THE BASE ONLINE AND SPEAKING OF, SAYING NO MORE ENDLESS WARS AND NO MORE TROOPS ABROAD.

SO IT IS UNCLEAR HOW TRUMP'S THINKING OR ACTUALLY PROPOSALS MAKE IT FORWARD.

>> EVERYBODY ABROAD IS ALSO LOOKING AT THE WHOLE SCALE.

THE ESSENTIAL DEVASTATION OF THE GOVERNMENT BY ELON MUSK, ETC.

IT SEEMS LIKE A DELIBERATE SYSTEM HERE.

AND TY COBB, WHO YOU MAY REMEMBER, TRUMP'S LAWYER, TOLD THE WASHINGTON POST, IT IS A NAKED POWER GRAB CONSISTENT WITH WHAT TRUMP'S ADVISORS HAVE PERSUADED HIM TO DO, WHICH IS TO FLOOD THE ZONE WITH AS MUCH UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTIVITY AS POSSIBLE WITH THE HOPE THAT THEY GET AWAY WITH IT.

SOME OR ALL OF IT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

DOES THIS TROUBLE YOU AS WELL?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A VERY FAST PACED KIND OF A WHIPLASH APPROACH TO GOVERNMENT REFORM AS YOU SAID, DONE IN THE MOST OUTSIDER WAY.

NOT ONLY IS DONALD TRUMP AN OUTSIDER, HE HAS BROUGHT IN ELON MUSK TO HELP ADDRESS AND NOT JUST LOOK AT, BUT AN ACT SOME OF THESE REFORMS.

THE UPSIDE COULD BE THAT THIS IS POSSIBLY ONE OF THE ONLY WAYS TO SMASH BUREAUCRACY.

LONG-ESTABLISHED BUREAUCRACY THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND PRESIDENT AND MAYBE EVEN CONGRESS HAS LONG HAD THAT WOULD SERVE THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA A BETTER AND PRODUCE BETTER OUTCOMES FROM GOVERNMENT.

THAT WOULD BE THE POTENTIAL UPSIDE.

BUT THE POTENTIAL DOWNSIDE IS A MASSIVE, MASSIVE RISK TO THE LONG-ESTABLISHED NORMS OF AMERICA, TO THE POWER BALANCE OF AMERICA, AND TO HOW THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS SERVED.

IT SEEMS AS IF GOVERNMENT IS LEARNING A VERY HARD LESSON IN THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT DUE TO THE -- YOU KNOW, DUE TO THE LAST ELECTION.

BUT IT ALSO SEEMS THAT SOME OF THESE OUTSIDERS MIGHT BE LEARNING A HARD LESSON IN CIVICS TOO.

>> WELCOME MATTHEW BARTLETT, WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING IN AND EXPLAINING THE BEST YOU CAN ACTUALLY FROM THE TRUMP PERSPECTIVE, HAVING BEEN IN HIS FIRST TERM.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> UP NEXT, THE CHAOS OF TODAY'S WORLD IS REFLECTED IN ART BY THE OSCAR-NOMINATED MOVIE.

A SCREWBALL COMEDY ABOUT A SEX WORKER THAT FINDS HERSELF IN A WORLD WITH ROMANCE WITH THE SON OF A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH.

IT IS WOWING AUDIENCES AND CRITICS HERE IS SOME OF THE TRAILER.

>> THIS IS THE BEAUTIFUL ANNIE.

>> IT WAS REALLY WEIRD.

>> YES WAY.

♪ THE FILM HAS BAGGED SIX OSCAR NOMINATIONS INCLUDING BEST PICTURE AND BEST ACTRESS THE BRIGHT NEW STAR.

HER PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN CALLED ONE OF THE BEST AND HAS LAUNCHED HER CAREER INTO THE STRATOSPHERE.

THIS WEEK MADISON CAME HERE TO THE STUDIO TO DISCUSS THE FILM AND HER RAPID RISE.

>> MIKEY MADISON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE JUST RECEIVED BREAKTHROUGH PERFORMER OF THE YEAR AT THE CRITICS CIRCLE AND OF COURSE, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE OSCAR NOMINATION FOR BEST ACTRESS, YOUR HOW OLD?

>> 25.

>> AND THIS IS LIKE YOUR THIRD MAJOR FILM?

HOW -- HOW -- HOWARD STERN AREAS THIS MOMENT FOR YOU?

>> IT IS HARD FOR ME TO GRASP IN A WAY.

IT IS SORT OF UNBELIEVABLE, SURREAL.

AT TIMES.

I THINK MAYBE MONTHS FROM NOW I WILL BE ABLE TO REALLY FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HAS HAPPENED BUT IT FEELS LIKE THE PAST I MEAN, SINCE LAST MAY REALLY, THINGS HAVE BEEN GOING BY SO QUICKLY.

ALSO VERY SLOWLY, AT THE SAME TIME.

>> YOU KNOW, I READ THAT YOU ARE A VERY SHY PERSON.

>> YES.

>> YOUR PARENTS ARE BOTH PSYCHOLOGISTS.

>> YES.

>> IT MAY HELP YOU TO MEET THIS MOMENT?

HOW DID YOUR SHYNESS SORT OF META-MORE FOR SIZE INTO THIS INCREDIBLE SORT OF BLOOMING?

>> I THINK THAT MY SHYNESS HAS NEVER HELPED ME WITH ANYTHING.

I HAVE TO BE HONEST.

>> DID YOU OR HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO OVERCOME IT?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS, YEAH.

I MEAN WHEN I WAS YOUNGER IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO EVEN MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH SOMEONE, AND I Ã >> YOU ARE DOING GOOD.

>> I WAS TRYING TO GET THERE.

SO, I THINK THAT AS I HAVE GOTTEN OLDER I JUST HAVE BECOME MORE COMFORTABLE WITH MYSELF.

I FEEL LIKE I'M IN A PLACE WHERE I JUST KNOW WHO I AM.

SO I THINK THAT HELPS WITH SHYNESS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT YOU KNOW, I AM CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY ACTOR WHO IS SHY.

I THINK A LOT OF SHY PEOPLE GET INTO ACTING AND SORT OF THE FILM INDUSTRY.

SO, YEAH.

BUT MY PARENTS ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE VERY INTELLIGENT.

THEY HAVE ALWAYS APPROACHED PSYCHOLOGY AND EMOTIONS FROM LIKE A VERY SCIENTIFIC WAY.

AND SO I THINK THAT WAS INTERESTING FOR ME.

>> THE OVERARCHING THEME OF THIS MOVIE IS YOU, SEX WORKER, BASICALLY END UP BEING IN A VERY TIRED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SON OF AN OLIGARCH, A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH.

SO, TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIFE EXPERIENCES COLLIDE TOGETHER IN PARTNERSHIP IN THIS FILM, BUT IT DOES NOT START OFF LIKE THAT.

HERE IS A SCENE FROM THE CLUB.

>> ANNIE, I'VE GOT A KEY FOR SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS RUSSIAN.

>> YOU KNOW JIMBO, THE GIRLS AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO YOUR COUSIN.

IF THEY DON'T START SHOWING US SOME RESPECT, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TIP OUT -- >> ALL RIGHT, I TALK TO THEM.

>> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, THE DJ?

>> OKAY, SERIOUSLY?

>> I SHARED MY PLAYLIST WITH HIM AND HE WAS VERY RUDE AND DISMISSIVE.

>> YOU'RE KILLING ME, LET'S GO, COME ON.

>> NO, I AM MEETING WITH THEM.

>> SO, FROM THE GET GO, YOU ARE YOUR OWN PERSON AND YOU ARE VERY CLEAR ABOUT YOUR BOUNDARIES.

THE CHARACTER SPEAKS SOME RUSSIAN AND CERTAINLY UNDERSTANDS RUSSIAN.

AS YOU SAID, THE SEX WORKER, SO WHAT WAS THE PREP FOR THAT?

>> JUST IN TERMS OF THE LANGUAGE, THAT WAS NOT A LANGUAGE THAT I SPOKE BEFORE FILMING.

OR HAD EVER ATTENDED TO SPEAK, SO I TOOK YOU KNOW, MONTHS OF RUSSIAN LANGUAGE SESSIONS.

I WORKED WITH AN INCREDIBLE DIALECT COACH WHO ALSO WORKED ON OUR FILM AND HE YOU KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE TWO HOUR SESSIONS EVERY TWO OR THREE DAYS AND I WOULD REALLY JUST TRY TO DRILL AS MUCH INTO IT IN MY BRAIN AS POSSIBLE.

VERY COMPLICATED LANGUAGE.

I REALLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING.

I DID NOT JUST WANT TO MEMORIZE IT.

I WANTED TO KNOW THE NUANCE OF EACH WORD AND HOW IT FEELS TO SAY IT AND WHAT THE OTHER ACTORS ARE SAYING TO ME.

AND I DEDICATED A LOT OF TIME TO LEARNING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND THEN OBVIOUSLY, SHE IS FROM BRIGHTON BEACH AND HE IS FROM BROOKLYN AND THERE IS A SPECIFIC DIALECT THAT COMES THE LIPS >> IN THE AMERICAN ACCENT.

>> YES, AND SO YOU KNOW, AND SO I AM IN LA VALLEY GIRL AND I DON'T SOUND ANYTHING LIKE THAT SO I WAS LIKE OKAY, WELL THEN I'M GOING TO HAVE TO REALLY SPECIFY WHAT HER VOICE SOUNDS LIKE IN ALL THESE LITTLE THINGS.

AND THEY JUST KIND OF CAME TOGETHER TO BRING ANNIE TO LIFE IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND -- YOU KNOW, PROJECTOR AS SOMEONE VERY DIFFERENT THAN ME.

I WAS JUST THE VESSEL FOR ALL OF THAT.

>> YEAH, AND YOU SHAPED THIS CHARACTER.

HOW DID YOU PREPARE FOR THE SEX SCENES OR THE SEX WORKER SCENES?

>> YOU KNOW, I DID A LOT OF RESEARCH INTO SEX WORK BECAUSE I THINK THAT I WENT INTO MY PREPARATION OF THE FILM REALLY NOT KNOWING MUCH ABOUT THAT COMMUNITY OR WHAT THAT PROFESSION IS LIKE.

AND IT COMPLETELY OPENED UP MY EYES AND I WAS ABLE TO -- WE HAD CONSULTANTS THAT WERE BROUGHT INTO THE FILM AND I WAS ABLE TO MEET THESE INCREDIBLE WOMEN, AND THEY OFFERED SO MUCH INSIGHT AND NUANCE INTO WHAT THAT KIND OF WORK IS LIKE, SO I THINK THAT JUST OPENED UP MY MIND, AND THAT IS HOW I WAS ABLE TO FILM ALL OF THOSE SCENES.

YOU KNOW, MY CHARACTER IS A SEX PROFESSIONAL AND IT IS HER JOB, HER BODY AND -- PART OF HER WORK.

AND SO FOR ME, I THINK I ALSO APPROACHED IT IN A SIMILAR WAY.

I WAS VERY COMFORTABLE.

I MEAN, SEAN BAKER IS JUST -- HE IS A WONDERFUL, LOVELY PERSON AND THE WHOLE PRODUCTION.

YOU KNOW, THEIR PRIORITY IS SAFETY, AND THEY WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE A WONDERFUL TIME MAKING THEIR FILMS AND THAT SENTIMENT WAS REALLY ECHOED.

IT WAS SUCH A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

>> WE WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP AND IT WAS ESSENTIALLY FAST FORWARD FROM THERE, FORM THE FIRST ONE AND YOU END UP MARRYING EVAN.

AND NOT SOMETHING THAT HIS PARENTS ARE THRILLED ABOUT.

AND THEY TRY TO GET YOU TO SPLIT UP.

HERE IS A SCENE ON THE TARMAC WHERE YOU ARE IN -- TERMS.

YOUR CHARACTER, AND HE IS TELLING THEM WHERE TO GO.

>> I'M GETTING ON THIS AIRPLANE AND GETTING DIVORCE.

>> YEAH.

WE ARE GOING TO GET -- DIVORCED, BUT FIRST I'M GETTING A LAWYER, THEN I'M GOING TO SUE YOU AND WALK AWAY WITH -- BECAUSE I DID NOT SIGN A PRENUP.

>> BALL Z, RIGHT?

I MEAN, VERY SELF-ASSURED.

I MEAN, YOU'RE TAKING CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE RIGHT THERE.

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ABOUT THIS CHARACTER, SHE HAS THIS AMAZING FIGHTING SPIRIT AND SHE WILL FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL PHYSICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY FOR WHAT SHE BELIEVES IS HERS OR THE LIFE THAT SHE HAS BEEN WELCOMED INTO.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT SCENE IS ONE THAT I LOVE SO MUCH BECAUSE I REMEMBER WE PREMIERED IT AND WHEN THAT SCENE CAME ON PEOPLE WERE CHEERING IN THE AUDIENCE AND THEY WERE CHEERING FOR THAT CHARACTER AND THIS MOMENT THAT SHE HAD WHERE SHE REALLY STANDS UP FOR HERSELF.

>> TELL ME ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH IVAN?

>> YEAH, ANNIE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH IVAN, WELL, SHE MEETS HIM AT HER PLACE OF WORK AND SO AT FIRST SHE SEES THAT HE HAS AMAZING POTENTIAL AND HE IS CHARMING, HE IS KIND.

HE IS ADVENTUROUS, HE SEEMS TO BE LIVING THIS INCREDIBLE, COMFORTABLE PARTY LIFESTYLE THAT IS REALLY ATTRACTIVE TO HER.

YOU KNOW, HE EMPLOYS HER, AND SO SHE IS SORT OF PERFORMING THIS VERSION OF HERSELF, THE SORT OF PERFECT GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE VERSION OF HERSELF TO HIM, BUT THEN I THINK THAT THE LINES BECOME BLURRED QUITE A BIT BECAUSE SHE REALLY BECOMES SEDUCED BY THIS LIFESTYLE AND FALLS IN LOVE WITH THE IDEA OF HIM.

>> AND THEN THE END IS ACTUALLY IT IS SAD, I THINK, THIS CHARACTER, IGOR, WHO WAS IN THE EMPLOY OF THE OLIGARCHS.

IN A WAY HE WAS A -- HENCHMAN FOR THEM AND ENFORCER FOR THEM.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU, WHETHER YOUR CHARACTERS BONDED IN THAT WAY.

DESCRIBE THE VERY END, BECAUSE YOU ARE IN THE CAR TOGETHER AND YOU SORT OF OUR BONDING OVER MAYBE A JOINT SADNESS.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, HE IS SO WONDERFUL.

>> IS ACTUALLY RUSSIAN.

>> HE IS ACTUALLY THE FIRST RUSSIAN ACTOR TO BE NOMINATED FOR AN OSCAR SINCE 1977.

THAT IS REALLY SPECTACULAR FOR HIM.

YEAH, SO YOU KNOW, IGOR THROUGHOUT THE FILM IS REALLY THE ONLY CHARACTER THAT HAS TREATED ANNIE LIKE A HUMAN WITH ANY KIND OF DECENCY AND RESPECT.

RESPECT I THINK IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THE THEMES IN THE FILM AND POWER AND SO IN THIS LAST SEEN THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH HEAD BUTTING BETWEEN THEM.

BUT THERE IS THIS UNDENIABLE CONNECTION AND I THINK SOMETIMES THERE IS JUST SOMEONE, SOME PEOPLE YOU MEET IN LIFE WHERE YOU HAVE THE SORT OF SOUL TETHER, A SOUL TIE, AND THEY BOTH SEE THINGS IN EACH OTHER THAT IS GOING ON WITHIN THEMSELVES.

AND SO IN THAT MOMENT, IN THE CAR THERE IS FINALLY A MOMENT WHERE THEY ARE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE AND SHARE SOMETHING HONEST AND TRUTHFUL WITH EACH OTHER WITHOUT ANY WORDS AT ALL.

>> IT IS INTERESTING THOUGH, YOU TALK ABOUT -- IT WAS HARD TO SUMMON THE TEARS THAT WERE REQUIRED IN THE FINAL SCENE, BECAUSE IT WAS, IT WAS EMOTIONAL, IT WAS SAD.

AND YOUR WHOLE FILM HAD BEEN PROJECTING TOUGHNESS.

YOUR WHOLE CHARACTER THROUGHOUT THE FILM, BUT FIRST APPARENTLY YOU SAID THAT YOU CANNOT SHED A TEAR, NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRIED.

WHEN I GOT TO THAT SCENE I WAS ANGRY, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY.

THE BREAKTHROUGH CAME FROM SOMETHING DEEP, DEEPLY PERSONAL.

AN OLD VOICEMAIL FROM YOUR FATHER THAT YOU LISTEN TO WHENEVER YOU NEED TO FEEL CENTERED.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS REMARKABLE.

SO TELL ME ABOUT IT.I JUST READ IT OUT.

BUT SUMMONING UP THAT LAST BIT OF EMOTION THERE?

>> IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE WHEN I WAS FILMING THAT SCENE I MEAN, WITH THE CHARACTER AND ALSO WITH ME THERE WERE SEVEN EMOTIONS THAT WERE BUILDING UP AND SHE IS YOU KNOW, A VERY VULNERABLE PERSON, BUT SHE IS PROTECTING IT WITH THIS LAYER OF STEEL.

SHE DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO SEE HER HURT.

AND I THINK THAT IT WAS SORT OF THE SAME WITH ME WHILE I WAS FILMING, AND I WAS SO FRUSTRATED I WOULD BE CRYING IN BETWEEN TAKES, TALKING TO OUR PRODUCER AND I'M LIKE I CANNOT CRY AND SHE IS LIKE YOU ARE CRYING RIGHT NOW.

SO WHAT IS GOING ON?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

AND I THINK IT WAS REALLY JUST, I WAS SO CONCERNED ABOUT NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO HER JUSTICE IN THAT SCENE AND I WAS SO CONCERNED ABOUT NOT GETTING THE SCENE RIGHT, WHICH IS MADE IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE AS AN ACTOR YOU CANNOT GET A SCENE RIGHT, YOU ARE EITHER HONEST IN THE MOMENT OR YOU ARE NOT SO I WAS LIKE I THINK I JUST NEED TO TRY TO LET GO OF ANY EXPECTATIONS I HAD ABOUT THIS SCENE, LET GO OF THE PRESSURE OF THIS BEING THE LAST SEEN IN THE FILM.

AND JUST LIKE ALLOW THOSE FLOOD GATES TO OPEN, BECAUSE I WAS LIKE -- I WAS HOLDING IT IN FOR SOME REASON.

I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE I CAN ASK MY PARENTS TO PSYCHOANALYZE THAT, BUT I WAS LIKE I THINK I NEED TO PULL SOMETHING PERSONAL FROM MY OWN LIFE TO JUST GROUND MYSELF.

AND I WAS LIKE OKAY, WELL I HAVE THIS VOICEMAIL AND I WAS TALKING TO OUR PRODUCER AND I WAS LIKE I THINK THAT YOU GUYS SHOULD LISTEN TO IT.

AND I DID, SO THERE IS SEAN BAKER SITTING IN THE BACKSEAT OF THE CAR AND -- >> HE IS THERE, DIRECTING THE SCENE FROM THE BACKSEAT.

>> AND THEN SEAN JUST HELD THE PHONE AND PLAYED THIS VOICEMAIL THAT IS VERY PERSONAL, PRIVATE, EMBARRASSING, VULNERABLE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

>> WHICH YOU DON'T WANT TO TELL US WHAT IT SAID?

>> WELL, IT WAS YOU KNOW, HE SAID YEARS AGO MY SWEET DAD SENT ME A VOICEMAIL DURING A TIME WHEN I YOU KNOW, I NEEDED SOME HOPEFULNESS, AND I JUST -- HE SAID THE THINGS THAT I NEEDED TO HEAR.

YOU KNOW?

HE JUST TALKED ABOUT SEEING A LOT OF HOPE AND IN MY FUTURE.

THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT IT SAID.

AND WE PLAYED IT AND WE ALL LISTENED TO IT.

AND I THOUGHT THE INTIMACY OF LISTENING TO THAT VOICEMAIL REALLY JUST GROUNDED ALL OF US AND BROUGHT US TO KIND OF MORE LIKE A RAW UNCOMFORTABLE PLACE LIKE WE WERE ALL KIND OF ON EDGE AND SO THEN WE SHOT THE SCENE AND THERE WAS JUST SOME DIFFERENT ENERGY TO IT.

>> A FLOODGATE HAD BEEN OPEN.

>> YEAH, IT HAD.

WITH THE CHARACTER, YEAH.

>> AND ALSO FOR YOU, THE ACTOR.

>> WELL, I THINK IT WAS LIKE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA, YES.

BECAUSE I WAS SO USED TO PLAYING A CHARACTER WHO IS PROTECTING ALL OF THAT.

SHE WILL NOT LET ANYONE SEE HER VULNERABILITY, BECAUSE I THINK SHE IS TRYING TO HOLD ONTO THIS BIT OF DIGNITY THAT SHE HAS LEFT, AND TO LET ANYONE KNOW HOW TRULY HEARTBROKEN SHE IS ABOUT ALL OF THIS AND HOW SHE HAS BEEN TREATED WOULD BE TOO MUCH FOR HER.

AND SO IN THIS PRIVATE MOMENT WHERE THERE IS NOBODY EXCEPT FOR THE ONE PERSON WHO HAS TREATED HER DECENTLY, I THINK SHE IS ABLE TO LET SOME OF THAT OUT.

>> SEAN BAKER APPARENTLY CREATED THE SURROUND YOU, THIS CHARACTER.

HE DID NOT JUST PRESENT YOU WITH A SCRIPT, RIGHT?

AND SAY THIS IS THE CHARACTER.

HE CAME TO YOU, HAVING SEEN YOU AND OTHER THINGS.

RIGHT?

>> THAT IS NOT BAD FOR ANY ACTOR.

MUCH LESS A YOUNG ONE.

>> YEAH, I HAD NEVER HAD THAT EXPERIENCE BEFORE.

I HAD NEVER HAD SOMEONE WRITE SOMETHING FOR ME.

SO IT WAS VERY EXCITING.

I HAD TO REALLY QUICKLY LET GO AND TRY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO LET GO OF MY IMPOSTER SYNDROME OF LIKE WHY DID HE CHOOSE ME?

WHY DOES HE WANT TO DO THIS WITH ME?

AND JUST KIND OF ACCEPT THE EXPERIENCE AND WHAT WAS COMING, BECAUSE I HAVE ALWAYS DREAMED OF BEING ABLE TO COLLABORATE WITH A DIRECTOR LIKE THIS.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR A DECADE NOW AS AN ACTOR, TRYING TO -- >> SO MANY GREAT DIRECTORS TOO.

20 TARANTINO.

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO SHED YOUR IMPOSTER SYNDROME FOR GOOD?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A BIT OF THAT.

>> AND OSCAR?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY I NEVER, I NEVER WANT TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE I AM LIKE -- WHERE I DON'T KNOW, OR I DON'T HAVE THAT PIECE OF ME THAT I THINK THAT IT ALMOST PUSHES ME TO CONTINUE BEING A STUDENT IN A WAY.

I ALWAYS WANT TO KEEP GETTING BETTER, LEARNING.

YOU KNOW, REFINING MY CRAFT IN SOME WAY.

SO I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T THINK I WILL EVER GET TO A PLACE WHERE I FEEL LIKE I AM GOOD, I DON'T NEED TO LEARN ANYTHING ELSE.

I THINK THAT I ALWAYS WANT TO BE -- I DON'T KNOW, I THINK THAT IS GOOD THOUGH.

>> THAT IS GOOD, YOU ALWAYS WANT TO LEARN, BUT YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE THERE IF YOU HAVE LEARNED.

>> THAT IS TRUE AND I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN -- THERE IS DEFINITELY A MIDDLE GROUND, I THINK THAT I COULD REACH.

>> WHEN IS YOUR NEXT FILM PROJECT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

THERE ARE SOME FILMS THAT I REALLY LOVE AND HAVE MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR.

I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT WILL BE, WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE NERVE-RACKING, BUT THEN ALSO REALLY EXCITING BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW.

I KIND OF FEEL LIKE MY DREAMS ARE COMING TRUE A LITTLE BIT, WHICH IS LIKE I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE THERE IS WOOD SOMEWHERE AND I WILL KNOCK ON IT.

>> WHAT A GREAT PLACE TO BE, SENIOR DREAMS COME TRUE.

THAT IS GREAT, CONGRATULATIONS.

>>> NOW EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, WE DISCUSSED THE ACTS THAT ELON MUSK HAS BEEN TAKING TWO CRITICAL AGENCIES IN A WAY THAT COULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND EVEN ILLEGAL.

IN A NEW PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC, THEY WARNED THAT IT IS URGENT FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO RECLAIM ITS POWER BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

AND HE TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHY TOO LATE COULD COME A LOT SOONER THAN EVERYONE THINKS.

>> JONATHAN, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF RECENT ARTICLES THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN FOR THE ATLANTIC, BUT I WANT TO START WITH ONE WHERE YOU SAY THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS IS HERE.

IN PLAIN LANGUAGE, WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WE -- LED YOU TO THAT CONCLUSION?

>> ARTICLE 1 GIVES CONGRESS POWER OVER SPENDING.

AND THAT IS THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY FOR THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE OF THIS REPUBLIC.

IF CONGRESS ESTABLISHES AN AGENCY OR SPENDING PROGRAM, THAT IS THE LAW, AND THE PRESIDENT HAS TO FOLLOW THE LAW.

NOW THERE HAVE BEEN DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT HOW THE PRESIDENT HANDLES THAT, AND THE PRIORITIES, BUT THAT BASIC FACT HAS NOT BEEN CHALLENGED, AND THAT FACT IS SOMETHING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS NOW CHALLENGING.

THEY'RE CLAIMING FOR THEMSELVES THE RIGHT TO ELIMINATE ANY PROGRAM OR AGENCY THAT THEY DO NOT LIKE FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.

SO THAT, THAT IS TOTALLY NEW, AND THAT WOULD COMPLETELY UP AND THE BALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN THE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE PUBLIC SEES IT AS SERIOUSLY AS YOU DO?

>> NO, I DON'T ALTHOUGH YOU ARE SEEN SOME EVIDENCE THAT TRUMPS APPROVAL RATINGS ARE FALLING BACK A BIT.

EVEN JUST OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

AND YOU HAVE SEEN THAT ELON MUSK HAS GROWN UNPOPULAR.

THE GENERAL IDEA THAT THE DEMONSTRATION IS DOING SOMETHING RADICAL AND MOVING REALLY FAST IS GETTING THROUGH TO THE PUBLIC.

AND IT IS COMMON FOR PRESIDENTS TO COME IN AND THINK THAT THE PUBLIC WANTS THEM TO UNDERTAKE RADICAL CHANGE.

THIS IS A MISTAKE THAT PRESIDENTS OF BOTH PARTIES HAVE MADE AND ASSUMING THAT THE PUBLIC WILL REWARD THEM FOR MOVING THINGS REALLY FAST, AND THAT IS USUALLY NOT THE CASE, AND THIS SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER INSTANCE IN WHICH THAT SAME MISTAKE IS BEEN MADE.

>> SO, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOVES THAT THE PRESIDENT OFÃ YOU KNOW, WITH ELON MUSK IN THE LEAD, THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DECISIONS THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN THAT HAVE CAUSED THIS KIND OF ALARM?

DESCRIBE WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

>> YEAH.

WELL, THEY PUT UP THIS VERY BROAD AND CONFUSING MEMO THAT SEEMED TO SUSPEND THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT'S OPERATIONS, WHICH THERE WERE LOTS OF PEOPLE JUSTIFIABLY IN A PANIC BEFORE A COURT SORT OF SLAPPED THEM DOWN.

BUT NOW THEY ARE TRYING TO DO A VERSION OF THAT SEEMINGLY PIECEMEAL.

YOU HAVE ELON MUSK HELD UP IN THE EISENHOWER BUILDING NEXT TO THE WHITE HOUSE JUST KIND OF GOING THROUGH THE FEDERAL BUDGET AND WITHOUT HAVING MUCH EXPERTISE TO DO THE JOB, DETERMINING WHICH PROGRAMS HE CONSIDERS WASTEFUL OR FRAUDULENT OR HEART OF SOME KIND OF LEFT-WING CONSPIRACY THAT HE IMAGINES HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS.

AND TRYING TO JUST ZERO OUT THOSE PROGRAMS OR DECLARE THEM DEAD.

AND THEN MEANWHILE, THEY ARE SENDING OUT LETTERS TO THE WHOLE FEDERAL WORK FORCE URGING THEM TO RETIRE IMMEDIATELY, AND SOME PEOPLE ARE FIGURING OUT WHETHER THEY SHOULD TAKE THAT OFFER OR WHETHER IT IS AN OFFER AT ALL OR IF IT IS LEGAL AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE HARD TO DETERMINE.

SO THEY ARE JUST THROWING SAND INTO THE GEARS OF THE MACHINERY.

THERE JAMMING UP THE MACHINE AS HARD AND FAST AS THEY CAN WITHOUT HAVING A VERY CLOSE IDEA OF HOW IT OPERATES AND WHAT THE EFFECTS OF ALL OF THIS MIGHT BE ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RELYING ON THESE GOVERNMENT SERVICES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY SET OFF RED FLAG'S FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THAT ELON MUSK IN THIS GROUP OF YOUNG SOFTWARE ENGINEERS, WE ARE TOLD THAT ONE OF THEM IS AS YOUNG AS 19 YEARS OLD AND MOST OF THEM ARE IN THEIR EARLY 20s, HAVE HAD ACCESS TO THE TREASURIES SYSTEM FOR DISBURSING GOVERNMENT FUNDS.

AND THIS IS HERE TO FOR BEEN SUPERVISED BY CAREER EMPLOYEES, THE CAREER EMPLOYEE THAT WAS ULTIMATELY IN CHARGE OF THIS WAS RETIRED UNDER DURESS IT SEEMS AFTER HE OBJECTED TO THEM HAVING ACCESS TO THIS.

AND AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS SAID THEY CAN ONLY HAVE LIMITED ACCESS AND ONLY TWO MEMBERS OF THE TEAM COULD HAVE LIMITED ACCESS AND IT IS SO CALLED READ ONLY ACCESS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHY THIS IS SO CONCERNING?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND THAT IS PART OF THE REASON FOR THE CONCERN.

WE DO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE MISLED THE PUBLIC ABOUT THIS.

THEY SAID THAT ELON MUSK HAD .- ONLY ACCESS TO THIS INFORMATION, BUT THE REPORTERS FOUND THAT THEY DID NOT, THEY ACTUALLY HAD ACCESS TO GO IN AND CHANGE THE OUTCOMES OF THESE PAYMENTS.

SO WHAT PEOPLE THINK, ALTHOUGH YOU KNOW, I DO NOT WANT TO JUST PASS ON SPECULATION AS FACT, BUT IT SEEMS AS IF ELON MUSK IS INCLINED TO USE THIS TOOL TO ADVANCE THIS ANTIGOVERNMENT AGENDA THAT HE SET OUT FOR HIMSELF THAT BASICALLY, INSTEAD OF GOING TO CONGRESS AND SAYING WE THINK THIS PROGRAM IS TOO BIG OR THIS AGENCY SHOULD BE SHATTERED, WE ARE GOING TO UNILATERALLY CUT UP THE PAYMENTS TO WHATEVER PROGRAMS THAT THEY THINK SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT EXIST.

AND JUST GOING STRAIGHT TO THE END POINT.

AND SO THAT WOULD, THAT WOULD ACCOMPLISH THE WORK IMMEDIATELY.

AND EVEN IF THE COURTS WERE TO STEP IN AND SAY YOU CANNOT DO THIS, THE DAMAGE OF MOVES LIKE THIS WOULD BE SO DIFFICULT TO REVERSE, THAT THEY MIGHT FUNCTIONALLY SUCCEED IN THEIR GOAL EVEN IF ILLEGALLY.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS KIND OF DESIGNATED AGENT IN THIS, ELON MUSK, HAVE BEEN ARGUING THAT THESE PROGRAMS ARE EITHER INEFFICIENT OR, IN THEIR WORDS, CORRUPT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> LOOK, THERE ARE INEFFICIENT PROGRAMS IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY INEFFICIENT SYSTEMS THAT PREVENT THE GOVERNMENT FROM FUNCTIONING EFFICIENTLY AND I KNOW OF SOME POLICY HAWKS THAT HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE THE GOVERNMENT WORK BETTER.

IT IS FRUSTRATING THAT THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO PEOPLE LIKE THAT WITH REAL EXPERTISE AND THAT ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE THE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT.

IN A SENSE, THEY SEEM TO BE JUST RUNNING RAMPANT THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT, PICKING UP PROGRAMS THAT HAVE NAMES THAT SOUND WEIRD TO THEM OR MAKING SEAT OF THEIR PANTS GUESSES.

AND 20 IN THE AMOUNT WITHOUT ANY REAL THOUGHT.

SO IT IS FRUSTRATING AS SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO MAKE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT, THAT THEY ARE NOT, THEY ARE NOT DOING THE SAME KIND OF CAREFUL OR RESPECTABLE WAY.

>> BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS ASPECT, BECAUSE THAT IS YOUR LARGER.

, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT -- AND OVERREACH IN ONE AREA BY A PERSON WHO IS INEXPERIENCED, DOES NOT REALLY KNOW HOW THE GOVERNMENT WORKS OR WHAT IT DOES, IS THAT HE STAYS PARTICULARLY FIXATED ON USAID .

THE PRESIDENT AND ELON MUSK SEEM PARTICULARLY FIXATED ON THIS.

THE POINT OF USING VERY DISPARAGING LANGUAGE TO TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DO THIS WORK AND THE WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING.

WHY ARE THEY SO FIXATED ON THESE AGENCIES?

DO YOU HAVE ANYÃTHIS PARTICULAR AGENCY, DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF THAT?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION AND I HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE IT OUT .1 IRONY, AND I HAVE ACTUALLYÃ I'M WORKING ON A STORY ABOUT THIS, IS THAT THE MARXIST LEFT HATES USAID AND HAS ALWAYS HATED USAID, AND THE REASON THEY HATE IT, IT IS A TOOL OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

AND AS SUCH, IT WAS DESIGNED TO COUNTER THE EFFECTS OF COMMUNISM.

NOW IT COUNTERS THE EFFECTS OF THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY GLOBALLY BY PROVIDING HUMANITARIAN AID AND TRIES TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT THE UNITED STATES CARES ABOUT THEM, SO IT IS KIND OF A JOINT DRAMATIC HUMANITARIAN MISSION.

DESCRIBING IT AS MARXIST IS REALLY AN A VERSION OF THE TRUTH.

HOW THEY CAME TO THIS IS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

IF YOU WANTED TO GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR BEING CLEVER AND SAY THE AMERICAN PUBLIC DOES NOT LIKE FOREIGN AID, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC MASSIVELY OVERESTIMATES THE AMOUNT OF THE BUDGET THAT GOES TO FOREIGN AID, SO ONE REASON THAT THEY THINK WE'RE SPENDING FAR MORE ON IT THEN WE ARE.

BUT IT IS A SOFT TARGET AND IF THEY WANT TO ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE THAT THE WHITE HOUSE HAS THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE ANY FEDERAL PROGRAM THAT IT WANTS WITHOUT GOING THROUGH CONGRESS, YOU WANT TO START WITH THE SOFTEST TARGET TO BEGIN WITH AND THEN YOU ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE AND YOU CAN START GOING AFTER HARDER TARGETS.

AND THAT WOULD REALLY ENABLE CONSERVATIVES TO ADVANCE POLICY GOALS.

YOU HAVE LARGE CHUNKS OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT THAT IS OPPOSED TO THE EXPANSION OF GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE SINCE THE NEW DEAL IN THE GREAT SOCIETY, BUT CONSIDERED A LOT OF THESE LARGE SPENDING PROGRAMS LIKE MEDICARE, MEDICAID, SOCIAL SECURITY TO BE POPULAR DIFFICULT TO CUT OR TO PRIVATIZE.

BUT IF THEY COULD JUST DO IT AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE SNAP OF THE FINGERS AND NOT HAVE TO HAVE A VOTE IN CONGRESS, NOT HAVE TO HAVE PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY, THAT WOULD, THAT WOULD BE A GENERATIONAL CHANGE WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND ADVANCE A LOT OF THE GOALS.

>> WHEN THE ARGUMENTS THAT YOU MAKE IN YOUR PIECES THAT LOOK, IF THIS IS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS, THIS SPEAKS TO A NEUTERING OF THE THIRD BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS THE CONGRESS, THAT PRESUMABLY EVERYBODY IN CONGRESS SHOULD BE CONCERNED.

>> THE FIRST BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT I THINK THE FOUNDERS DECIDED THE FIRST BRANCH, CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO PREEMPT -- >> THE FIRST BRANCH, BUT THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU, WHY ARE THEY NOT MORE JEALOUS OF THEIR OWN INSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVES?

>> WELL, RIGHT.

WHAT YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED IS REALLY A LONG-STANDING FLAW IN THE CONSTITUTION.

AND NEITHER OF US IS THE FIRST PERSON TO IDENTIFY THIS, BUT THE FOUNDERS WERE NOT THINKING ABOUT POLITICAL PARTIES WHEN THE POUNDED THE SYSTEM.

PARLIAMENT REFORMS ARE DESIGNED WITH PARTIES IN MIND.

YOU HAVE PARTY CONTROL AND IN THE CORE OF HOW THOSE SYSTEMS ARE SUPPOSED TO OPERATE.

BUT WHAT THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION DESIGN -- THEY IMAGINE THAT THE SEPARATE BRANCHES WOULD OPERATE AS BRANCHES INDEPENDENTLY OF EACH OTHER, AND SO THERE WOULD BE JEALOUS OF THEIR POWERS AND MAKE SURE THAT THE OTHER BRANCHES DID NOT -- CONTROL.

SO YOU HAVE CONGRESS MAKING SURE THAT THE PRESIDENT DID NOT TAKE TOO MUCH POWER BECAUSE CONGRESS WOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT CONGRESS -- AND THE PRESIDENT WOULD DO THE SAME THING VIS-@-VIS CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND THE LEGISLATURE AND THE JUDICIAL BRANCH WOULD ALL CHECK IN WITH EACH OTHER.

BUT, THE PARTIES UP AND THOSE INCENTIVE SYSTEMS.

WHEN YOU HAVE CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT CONTROLLED BY THE SAME PARTY, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS JUST WANT THE PRESIDENT TO SUCCEED.

NOW, THAT IS A LONG-STANDING FEATURE OF AMERICAN POLITICS.

BUT IT IS KIND OF REASON TO A NEW HEIGHT UNDER THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SO MUCH POWER OVER OTHER REPUBLICANS.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS COME TO DEFINE ITS IDEOLOGY ALMOST ENTIRELY IN WHATEVER TERMS DONALD TRUMP SETS AND TRUMP HAS SHOWN THAT HE CAN JUST CHANGE WHAT THE PARTY STANDS FOR OVERNIGHT AND MOST REPUBLICANS WILL FOLLOW HIM INSTANTANEOUSLY.

HE HAS ALSO SHOWN THAT ANY REPUBLICANS WHO DEFY HIM, HE CAN SAY THAT THEY ARE A RHINO REPUBLICAN IN NAME ONLY AND SUPPORT OF A PRIMARY CHALLENGE AND AND THEIR POLITICAL CAREER.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS NOW, BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN WRITING ABOUT THEM.

YOU'RE NOT IMPRESSED.

>> NO.

>> YOU'RE NOT IMPRESSED.

>> SAY MORE.

>> I WROTE A PIECE ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE'S RECENT MEETING WITH AN ELEVATED LEADER AND IT SORT OF HAD A BIT OF A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE PAST AND REALLY WANT TO GO.

AND YOU HAVE GOT TO BE A LITTLE BIT CAREFUL TALKING ABOUT IT BEEN LIKE THIS, BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THE DEMOCRATS BUT IT IS REALLY AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS RELATIVELY LIMITED POWER.

IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT RUNNING FOR OFFICE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO WITH THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE TO FIND OUT WHAT TO SAY OR WHO IS GOING TO BE THE CANDIDATE IN YOUR DISTRICT.

-- BY VOTERS.

BUT I THINK, YOU CANNOT JUST STOP THERE, BECAUSE THE REASON, OR AT LEAST ONE REASON THE DNC IS SO POWERLESS IS THAT A LOT OF THE POWER OVER THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS BEEN CONCEDED TO THE PROGRESSIVE -- INFRASTRUCTURE OVER THE PAST 15 OR 20 YEARS.

PROGRESSIVE ACTIVIST GROUPS FINANCED PRIVATELY BY DONORS OFTEN VERY LIBERAL DONORS THAT HAVE ADVANCED A SERIES OF CAUSES AND NEW ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE AND REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE, RACIAL JUSTICE, AND ALL THOSE ACTIVISTS HAVE SET OUT TO PUSH THE PARTY TO THE LEFT SINCE THE SECOND OBAMA TERM, AND THEY HAVE HAD TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF SUCCESS PUSHING THEM TO THE LEFT, BUT I THINK THAT IN A LOT OF WAYS THEY PUSHED THE PARTY TO THE LEFT OF WHERE THE PUBLIC IS AND WHERE THEY WERE WINNING DURING THE OBAMA ERA, AND IT HAD SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM, FOR THE DEFEATS OF THE LAST ELECTION.

AND WHAT I NOTICED IN THE DNC MEETING IS THERE DID NOT SEEM TO BE ANY ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THIS PROBLEM.

THEY JUST SEEMED TO BE DOUBLING DOWN ON THE SAME BUZZWORDS AND ANALYSIS THAT GOT THEM INTO THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> MEMBERS OF CONGRESS?

SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN IN OFFICE FOR A LONG TIME.

THEY HAVE THEIR OWN STANDING IN THEIR COMMUNITIES THEY HAVE THEIR OWN REPUTATIONS.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE -- I MEAN, WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP THERE?

I MEAN, IS THE SIMPLE PROBLEM HERE THAT THERE IS NO FIGURE WHO COMMANDS THE RESPECT OR AT LEAST THE FOLLOWERSHIP OF SUFFICIENT NUMBERS OF EVEN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO KIND OF CREATE A -- I DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER WERE TO USE ALTHOUGH IT HAS BECOME -- >> A RESISTANCE.

>> A RESISTANT.

IS THAT, IS THAT THE ISSUE.

IS IT A FAILURE OF THE LEADERSHIP PERSONALITIES?

>> WELL, LOOK AT I THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT PATIENT IN ASSESSING THE SITUATION.

IT IS A COMMON SITUATION FOR A PARTY SHUT OUT OF POWER THROUGH LACK OF EFFECTIVE VOICE AND EFFECTIVE LEADERS BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T HAVE A POWER BASE FOR WHICH TO OPERATE IN.

AND USUALLY WHEN THE PARTIES COME BACK IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE IDEAS THEY ARE DEVELOPING IN OPPOSITION OR WITH THE CHARISMA OF THE LEADERS THEY HAVE IN OPPOSITION.

IT IS BECAUSE THE RULING PARTY, THE GOVERNING PARTY OVERREACHES AND CREATES A BACKLASH AND THEN THE OPPOSITION PARTY FINDS WAYS TO EXPLOIT THAT BACKLASH.

I THINK THAT WHATEVER LEADERS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DEVELOPS, THEY ARE GOING TO COME OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY THAT IS GOING TO BEGIN IN THREE YEARS OR SO, AND THEY ARE GOING TO FIGURE OUT WHATEVER ISSUES RESONATE MOST WITH THE PUBLIC AND WHATEVER FAILURES OF THE MENSTRUATION THEY CAN RUN AGAINST AND CRAFT A MESSAGE.

MY CONCERN IS THAT WHILE THEY POSITION THEMSELVES TO DO THAT, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT THEY CAN ALSO TAKE ON A BUNCH OF POSITIONS THAT ARE TOO FAR TO THE LEFT OF WHERE THE PUBLIC IS THAT WILL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PUBLIC DISCONTENT WITH TRUMP.

>> THE COURTS, SO FAR THE COURTS HAVE BEEN -- HAVE CONFRONTED TRUMP AND HIS AGENDA AT MULTIPLE POINTS.

THEY ALREADY SAID, ONE FEDERAL JUDGE SAID THIS IDEA OF ELIMINATING, YOU KNOW, BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP WITH THE 14th AMENDMENT'S OVERREACH, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER ARGUMENT TO SUGGEST THAT IS HIS GOAL, TO GET SOME OF THESE ISSUES IN COURT, BECAUSE HE DOES BELIEVE -- HE APPOINTED THREE OF THE CURRENT COURT JUSTICES, THEY HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THAT THEY HAVE A MAXIMALIST VIEW OF EXECUTIVE POWER, IS THERE ANY EFFECTIVE CHECK ON THE ACTIONS OF THIS PRESIDENT?

>> WELL, YOU ARE CERTAINLY RIGHT THAT IS ONEÃBASICALLY TWO GROUPS BY WHICH THIS CAN WORK.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT THIS -- THEY GET THESE CASES TO COURT AND THEY WIN AND THEY CHANGE THE PRESIDENT AND THEY GET THE COURT TO SAY ACTUALLY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH UNILATERALLY COULD ELIMINATE ANY SPENDING PROGRAM IT IS NOT LIKE.

NOW, THAT SEEMS TO VIOLATE THE PLAIN TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION, AND -- UNDERSTOOD FOR OVER 200 YEARS.

BUT THE CONSTITUTION IS WHATEVER DEFINED MOST CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES SAY, SO IF THAT IS WHAT THEY SAY IT IS, THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

SECONDLY, IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE, BUT THEY WILL MOVE SO FAST THAT THEY WILL HAVE AN EFFECT ANYWAY.

THAT ONCE YOU DRIVE OUT THE STAFF, THE EXPERTISE, THE INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE, IN A LOT OF THESE AGENCIES, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT STAND AROUND WAITING FOREVER TO SEE IF THEY WIN IN COURT.

THEY HAVE GOT TO GO ON WITH THEIR LIVES AND THEY HAVE MORTGAGES TO PAY.

THEY HAVE GOT THINGS TO DO WITH THEIR LIVES.

HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REBUILD IT.

SO THE SECOND DANGER IS PROBABLY MORE SERIOUS THAN THE FIRST, BUT EITHER ONE IS A POSSIBILITY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

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