>>> SHE IS THE WHITE HOUSE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF STAFF AND NOW SUSIE WILES, WHO LED HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, IS UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT AS SHE ATTEMPTS TO NAVIGATE AND DIRECT TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE.

GIVEN HIS FIRST TERM SAW FOUR CHIEFS OF STAFF, OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES SUSIE WILES MAY BE "TRUMP'S BEST HOPE."

JOURNALIST CHRIS WHIPPLE SPOKE TO ALL LIVING CHIEFS OF STAFF FOR HIS BOOK "THE GATEKEEPERS," AND HE NOW JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS IT.

>> CHRIS WHIPPLE, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF THINGS IN YOUR CAREER.

BUT, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS YOU HAVE DONE, FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, WHO IS IN WASHINGTON, YOU HAVE WRITTEN A WHOLE BOOK ABOUT THE INTER- WORKINGS OF THE WHITE HOUSE, SPECIFICALLY FOCUSING ON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF.

FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN SO FORTUNATE AS TO SIT IN THE BRIEFINGS AND WATCH THESE PEOPLE DO THEIR THING, WHAT IS THAT PERSON'S ROLE?

>> THE BOOK I READ WAS CALLED "THE GATEKEEPERS," AND WAS A REVELATION TO ME, BECAUSE, IT TURNS OUT THAT THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL JOB IN GOVERNMENT .

EVERY PRESIDENT LEARNS, OFTEN THE HARD WAY, THAT YOU CANNOT GOVERN EFFECTIVELY WITHOUT EMPOWERING A WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF TO DO ANY NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO EXECUTE YOUR AGENDA AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

THAT IS A CHALLENGE WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

IT IS A CRITICAL JOB.

I REALLY BELIEVE IT WHEN THE SUBTITLE OF MY BOOK IS "HOW THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF DEFINE EVERY PRESIDENCY," AND, TO SOME EXTENT, THEY REALLY DO.

>> SOME CHIEFS OF STAFF ARE, EVEN IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW POLITICS CLOSELY, THERE ARE SOME THINGS YOU MIGHT KNOW OF.

PEOPLE LIKE JAMES A. BAKER, FORMER SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY AND A SECRETARY OF STATE.

OR, KEN DUBERSTEIN OR LEON PANETTA, AS YOU MENTIONED, SOMEBODY WHO HAS HIS OWN PUBLIC PROFILE.

EVEN MAYBE RAHM EMANUEL.

BUT, THAT IS OF THE EXCEPTION, I LEARNED FROM YOUR BOOK.

THAT IS THE EXCEPTION.

>> THEY ARE OFTEN UNHERALDED.

THERE ARE VARIOUS MODELS.

CERTAINLY JIM BAKER AND LEON PANETTA AND RAHM EMANUEL, THEY WERE PEOPLE EVERYBODY KNEW ABOUT.

BUT, THERE ARE OTHERS IN THE MOLD OF, FOR EXAMPLE, JEFF ZIENTS, WHO WAS JOE BIDEN'S LAST WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, WHO REALLY WAS A SUPERB MANAGER.

BUT, AND UNDER THE RADAR AND INTROVERTED PERSON.

THAT MAY VERY WELL BE THE MODEL FOR SUSIE WILES, WHO IS ALSO SOMEONE WHO IS NOT EXTROVERTED BY ANY MEANS, WHO DOESN'T NEED THE ATTENTION OR WANTED.

SHE IS GOING TO TRY TO MAKE THIS EXECUTE TRUMP'S AGENDA, BUT WITHOUT TRYING TO STEAL THE SPOTLIGHT, WHICH WILL BE JUST FINE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SUSIE WILES.

A DEPARTURE, IT SEEMS, FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

HE HAD FOUR CHIEFS OF STAFF AND NONE OF THOSE RELATIONSHIPS SEEMED TO HAVE ENDED PARTICULARLY WELL.

HE WROTE AN OP-ED ABOUT HER AND WHAT ROLE SHE MAY PLAY IN THIS NEXT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

FIRST OF ALL, I WAS FASCINATED TO REALIZE THAT SHE IS PAT SUMMERALL STARTER.

PAT SUMMERALL BEING A FAMOUS NFL BROADCASTER, FORMER PLAYER.

THAT WAS NEWS TO ME.

WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO BE NEWS TO US ABOUT SUSIE WILES?

>> SHE IS AN ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING CHARACTER.

HE POINTED OUT ONE THING ABOUT HER, THAT IS REALLY INTRIGUING.

AMONG OTHER THINGS, SHE IS THE FIRST WOMAN EVER TO SERVE IN THIS JOB, THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL JOB IN GOVERNMENT.

AND, I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE FASCINATING TO WATCH.

SHE IS SOMEONE WHO HAS THIS UNCANNY ABILITY TO IMPOSE AT LEAST SOME DISCIPLINE ON TRUMP'S DISORDER.

NOBODY HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT BEFORE.

SHE WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT SHE DOESN'T MANAGE TRUMP, TRUMP IS UNMANAGEABLE.

BUT, SHE HAS FIGURED OUT SOME SORT OF MODUS VIVENDI.

SHE CHOOSES HER FIGHTS CAREFULLY AND SHE HAS LASTED A LONG TIME.

HE TRUSTS HER.

SHE HAS CHARM AND ABUNDANCE AND SHE WILL NEED EVERY BIT OF IT TO SUCCEED.

TEMPERAMENT IS AN UNDERRATED QUALITY AMONG THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEFS BUT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

JAMES BAKER HAD IT, LEON PANETTA HAD IT, SUSIE WILES HAS IT.

FINALLY, SHE, I THINK, WILL HAVE AN ADVANTAGE AS A WOMAN.

THE WOMEN IN TRUMP WORLD LEARNED NOT TO COMPETE WITH TRUMP OR TRY TO BE EQUALS.

SUSIE WILES HAS MASTERED THAT.

AND CAN YOU MENTIONED HER FATHER, PAT SUMMERALL.

BOTH SHE AND TRUMP GREW UP WITH A VERY DIFFICULT FATHERS.

FRED TRUMP WAS A COLD FISH.

PAT SUMMERALL WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND HE WAS AN ALCOHOLIC.

HE CREDITED HER, SUSIE WILES, WITH GETTING HIM INTO TREATMENT.

I THINK SUSIE WILES WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT HAVEN'T DEALT WITH HER FATHER, WHOM, WHICH WAS A REAL CHALLENGE, REALLY HELPED HER TO PREPARE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

SHE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT HANDLING DIFFICULT MEN.

>> WHAT IS HER ATTRACTION TO POLITICS?

HOW DID SHE GET INTO IT AND HOW DID SHE AND TRUMP GET CONNECTED?

'S >> SHE WAS A 23-YEAR-OLD SCHEDULER FOR RONALD REAGAN AND LATER WORKED IN THE LABOR DEPARTMENT.

PRIOR TO THAT, SHE, RIGHT OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, SHE WORKED FOR CONGRESSMAN JACK KEMP, THE PRO FOOTBALL PLAYER.

THAT WAS A JOB PAT SUMMERALL HELPED TO ARRANGE FOR HER.

SHE BECAME ADDICTED TO IT, TO POLITICS, AND SPENT HER WHOLE CAREER IN FLORIDA.

SHE WAS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, SHE REALLY RAN THE WINNING CAMPAIGN FOR RON DeSANTIS FOR GOVERNOR.

AND THEN THEY HAD AN UGLY FALLING OUT, VERY BITTER FALLING OUT.

IT IS STILL A MYSTERY.

I HAVE ASKED HER ABOUT IT AND, TO THIS DAY, SHE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND PRECISELY WHY RON DeSANTIS TURNED ON HER.

BUT, HE DID, VICIOUSLY AND REALLY TRIED TO DESTROY HER CAREER.

TRUMP RESCUED HER AND SHE, HE WAS GRATEFUL TO HER FOR HAVING CARRIED FLORIDA FOR HIM IN TWO ELECTIONS AND SHE ENDED UP BECOMING THE COCHAIR, BUT REALLY FIRST AMONG EQUALS, AS THE HEAD OF HIS 2024 CAMPAIGN.

>> WHAT IS SHE GOOD AT?

>> SHE IS INCREDIBLY ORGANIZED AND SHE KNOWS THAT SHE IS JUST A VERY SMART AND SAVVY POLITICAL OPERATIVE.

SHE UNDERSTANDS HOW TO, SHE IS A GREAT MANAGER.

HER SUPERPOWER SEEMS TO BE HER ABILITY TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

SHE IS VERY GOOD AT MANAGING HIM.

AND I PUT MANAGING IN QUOTES.

>> WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE OF THAT, CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE?

>> SHE CERTAINLY HAD HER SHARE OF MOMENTS OF TRUTH WITH TRUMP AND ONE OF THEM CAME WHEN TRUMP CALLED HER TO A MEETING WITH SEVERAL WITNESSES AND TRIED TO INTIMIDATE HER, COMPLAINED THAT SHE WASN'T UP TO THE JOB, AND TURNED TO THE OTHERS IN THE ROOM AND SAID, WHAT DO YOU THINK, SHOULD I FIRE HER?

HE WAS TRYING TO HUMILIATE HER.

SHE RETREATED BUT SHE DIDN'T RUN AWAY.

AND, SHE CAME BACK TO LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY AND SHE CAME BACK TO TRUMP SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

AND, SHE SAID DON'T EVER DO THAT.

I'M PARAPHRASING THAT BUT "DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN."

TRUMP SAID "I WON'T HAVE TO."

>> AND RECENT OP-ED, YOU WROTE, "KEN DUBERSTEIN ONCE OBSERVED THAT CAMPAIGNING IS TRYING TO DESTROY YOUR OPPONENT WHILE GOVERNING IS MAKING FRIENDS WITH THEM."

IN HIS FIRST TERM AS PRESIDENT, TRUMP DID NOT GET THE DIFFERENCE AND HIS TENURE WAS OVERWHELMED BY DESTRUCTION AND CHAOS.

>> TRUMP HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE DIFFERENCE.

>> I HAVEN'T SEEN HE'S TRYING TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH ANYBODY.

I DO SEE THAT HE'S TRYING TO EXERT HIS WILL.

I AM JUST WONDERING WHAT DOES SUSIE WILES TO ABOUT THAT?

OR IS THE CONSTRUCT FROM KEN DUBERSTEIN NO LONGER RELEVANT?

>> THAT IS WHY IT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT JOB IN WASHINGTON BAR NONE.

IT IS THANKLESS, IT IS RELENTLESS.

IT IS 24/7.

THEN IT IS ESPECIALLY MORE DIFFICULT WITH SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

WHEN I INTERVIEWED REINCE PRIEBUS SHORTLY AFTER HE STEPPED DOWN AS TRUMP'S CHIEF OF STAFF DURING HIS FIRST TERM, THE FIRST THING HE SAID TO ME WAS, "CHRIS, TAKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE HEARD AND MULTIPLY IT BY 50."

THOSE WERE THE FIGHTS HE CLAIMED HE WAS FIGHTING BEHIND THE SCENES THAT NOBODY KNEW ABOUT.

IT IS A HUGE CHALLENGE FOR SUSIE WILES, NOT LEAST BECAUSE TRUMP HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CAMPAIGNING AND GOVERNING.

KEN DUBERSTEIN IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

CAMPAIGNING, YOU TRY TO DESTROY YOUR OPPONENTS AND TRUMP HAS A GENIUS FOR, A FERAL GENIUS.

HE HAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS OR CUT DEALS ON CAPITOL HILL.

THAT IS WHY HIS FIRST TERM WAS SO UNPRODUCTIVE.

IT IS ONE THING TO PUT JUDGES ON THE BENCH, IT IS ANOTHER THING TO REPEAL AND REPLACE OBAMACARE OR PASS INFRASTRUCTURE OR OTHER BILATERAL THINGS.

SO FAR, WE HAVE SEEN FROM TRUMP, HAS BEEN THIS FIREHOSE OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND PROCLAMATIONS, SOME EGREGIOUS, SOME UNLAWFUL OR UNCONSTITUTIONAL, SOME DUBIOUS.

AND IT IS NOT A GOOD SIGN, I HAVE TO SAY.

FOR SUSIE WILES OR FOR TRUMP AS IT SUGGESTS, WHEN IT COMES TO SUSIE WILES, SHE IS EITHER IN AGREEMENT WITH A LOT OF THESE CRAZY ORDERS THAT TRUMP HAS PUT OUT THERE WHERE SHE IS NOT IN THE LOOP.

IF SHE IS IN THE LOOP MOTHER AND SHE IS CLEARLY NOT BEING HEARD OR BEING EFFECTIVE.

SO FAR, I THINK IT IS TROUBLE.

>> USE IT IN YOUR OP-ED THAT "THE HALLMARK OF A GOOD CHIEF OF STAFF IS TELLING THE PRESIDENT WHAT HE DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR."

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT IS, I DON'T THINK IT IS A SECRET PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES NOT LIKE TO BE TOLD THINGS HE DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR.

CAN SHE DO THAT?

>> I THINK SHE IS MORE SUCCESSFUL AT IT THAN ANY OF HER PREDECESSORS WERE.

HE, DONALD TRUMP CHURNED THROUGH FOUR WHITE HOUSE CHIEFS, EACH ONE MORE HAPLESS THAN THE ONE BEFORE.

HE ULTIMATELY FOUND THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF HIS DREAMS, MARK MEADOWS, WHO WAS THE ULTIMATE SYCOPHANT.

I COMPARED HIM IN ONE OF MY BOOKS TO A KIND OF GLADHANDING MANTRE D'.

HE DIDN'T JUST WANT TO PLEASE TRUMP, HE WANTED TO PLEASE EVERYBODY.

HE COULD NOT TELL DONALD TRUMP HARD TRUTHS.

SUSIE WILES HAS SHOWN OVER THIS LONG RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP AND HER ABILITY TO WIN THAT CAMPAIGN, THAT SHE REALLY DOES HAVE SOME ABILITY TO TELL DONALD TRUMP HARD TRUTHS.

BUT, THIS IS A RELATIVE THING WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP.

CLEARLY, SHE DECIDED NOT TO FIGHT THE BATTLE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT PROBABLY ANY OTHER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF WOULD HAVE THROWN HER BODY IN FRONT OF A DECISION TO PARDON 1500 JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONIST.

SHE, EVIDENTLY, CHOSE, SHE EITHER DIDN'T FIGHT THAT THE BATTLE OR SHE LOST IT.

WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

BUT, EVENTUALLY, WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.

>> IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT SUSIE WILES HAS ALREADY TAKEN A FIRM STANCE ON ELON MUSK'S ACCESS, THE TECH MOGUL, TESLA, SPACEX, WHO, IT HAS BEEN REPORTED, WANTED TO HAVE AN OFFICE AND WAS DOING AND SHE SAID NO TO THAT.

>> HE IS NOW IN THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE BUILDING.

EXACTLY.

ROUND ONE GOES TO SUSIE WILES.

ELON MUSK, ZERO.

WE WILL SEE IF SHE CAN KEEP THAT UP.

>> HERE IS MY QUESTION, ARE THEY REALLY INTERESTED IN GOVERNING, IN THE WAY THAT WE HAVE TRADITIONALLY THOUGHT OF AS GOVERNING?

ADDING CERTAIN POLICIES APPROVED AND IMPLEMENTED AND INSTITUTIONALIZED.

YES, WITH THE FLURRY OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, THEY HAVE CREATED A LOT OF , THEY HAVE GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION.

SOME OF THESE THINGS, AS WE HAVE SAID, ARE OF DUBIOUS LEGALITY AND DUBIOUS CONSTITUTIONALITY.

THAT IS GOING TO SUCK UP A LOT OF ATTENTION.

IS THE QUESTION HERE REALLY TO TRY TO GOVERN IN THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN ACCUSTOMED TO THINKING OF GOVERNING OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?

IF IT IS SOMETHING ELSE, WHAT IS IT?

>> IT COULD VERY WELL BE TWO DIFFERENT ANSWERS ONE FOR TRUMP AND ONE FOR SUSIE WILES.

SUSIE WILES, I THINK, WITHOUT A DOUBT, WANTS TO GOVERN EFFECTIVELY.

SHE WANTS TO MAKE THE TRAINS RUN IN AN ORDERLY WAY IN THE WEST WING.

SHE MAY BE DILUTED IN HER BELIEF THAT SHE CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN WITH DONALD TRUMP BUT I THINK THAT IS HER MISSION.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT SHE IS -BENT ON ACCOMPLISHING.

THE LAST TIME I SPOKE TO HER, SHE WAS DRIVING FROM MAR-A- LAGO.

SHE SAID SHE JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH HAKEEM JEFFRIES AND SHE WAS TELLING HIM, "YOU GET READY, THIS IS A NEW TRUMP.

THIS IS NOT THE GUY FROM THE FIRST FOUR YEARS.

HE REALLY WANTS TO GET STUFF DONE.

HE KNOWS HOW TO DO IT AND HE'S GOING TO BUCKLE DOWN AND GOVERN."

I AM PARAPHRASING, SHE DIDN'T SAY IT IN THOSE WORDS.

SHE BELIEVES THERE IS A NEW TRUMP.

WELL, WE WILL SEE ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED MINORITY LEADER HAKEEM JEFFRIES.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IN THE OP-ED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS SHE DOESN'T REALLY HAVE EXPERIENCE ON CAPITOL HILL.

SHE CERTAINLY DOESN'T HAVE THE KIND OF EXPERIENCE JIM BAKER HAD OR LEON PANETTA HAD.

HOW CRITICAL IS THAT GOING TO BE?

>> IT IS A REAL STRIKE AGAINST HER.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHE IS GOING TO HAVE TO COMPENSATE FOR.

SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE AN AWFULLY QUICK STUDY.

THE IDEA WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS SOMEONE NOT ONLY WITH WHITE HOUSE EXPERIENCE BUT SOMEONE WHO KNOWS CAPITOL HILL LIKE THE BACK OF HIS OR HER HAND.

JIM BAKER IS CERTAINLY ONE, LEON PANETTA IS ANOTHER.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE, EXCEPT WAY BACK WHEN WHEN SHE WAS IN THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION AS A YOUNG WOMAN.

THAT IS GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE FOR HER.

>> THE REPUBLICANS ON THE HILL HAS SHOWN A GREAT WILLINGNESS TO DEFER TO THE PRESIDENT.

THE REPUBLICAN LEADERS OF BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE HAVE PLEDGED THEIR LOYALTY TO THE SENATE SO THEY ARE THERE TO HELP THE PRESIDENT GET HIS AGENDA THROUGH AND THE CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE A LOT OF VOTES.

THE QUESTION IS DOES SHE HAVE THE ABILITY TO, OBVIOUSLY IT IS THEIR JOB TO WHIP THEIR OWN CAUCUSES.

THE LEADERS OF THOSE TWO BODIES, IT IS THEIR JOB TO DELIVER THE VOTES.

IS THAT A SITUATION WHERE THE CHIEF OF STAFF PLAYS A ROLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF IS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR, THAT IS THE PERSON WHO REALLY HAS TO BE ABLE TO CORRAL, WRANGLE VOTES ON CAPITOL HILL.

YOU CAN'T JUST LEAVE THAT UP TO THE CAUCUS.

NO, THE REPUBLICANS, THE CONGRESS MAY SEEM COLD, INTIMIDATED BY TRUMP RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THEY ARE ON THE BACK FOOT.

THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AND ANOTHER ADVANTAGE, ONE ADVANTAGE SUSIE WILES HAS THAT WILL OBVIOUSLY WORK IN HER FAVOR ON CAPITOL HILL IS THAT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY DOUBTS THAT SHE SPEAKS FOR TRUMP.

THAT IS CRITICAL.

IT WAS NEVER THE CASE WITH HER PREDECESSORS, FROM PREVIOUS TO MEADOWS.

NOBODY WAS EVER SURE THAT THOSE GUYS, WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR HOMES, THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SPEAKING.

SUSIE WILES HAS THAT.

I THINK THAT WILL BE AN ADVANTAGE FOR HER.

>> CHRIS WHIPPLE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.