>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ONE STEP CLOSER AFTER NETANYAHU SECURITY CABINET APPROVES THE CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE DEAL.

I SPEAK WITH FORMER HEAD OF ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AMOS YADLIN ABOUT THIS CRITICAL MOMENT.

>> I HAVE A WARM SPOT IN MY HEART FOR TIKTOK.

>> THE TROUBLE WITH TIKTOK.

TIM WU JOINS ME ON THE FATE OF THE WILDLY POPULAR APP.

>> EVERY CATEGORY YOU COULD THINK OF DEMOGRAPHICALLY SPEAKING IS SPENDING LESS TIME IN FACE-TO-FACE SOCIALIZING.

>> THE ANTISOCIAL CENTURY.

THE ATLANTIC'S DEREK THOMPSON TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN HOW AMERICA FACES AN EPIDEMIC OF SOLITUDE AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO REVERSE IT.

>> I WAS READY TO DEAL WITH WHATEVER CAME MY WAY AND NOT EXPECT EVERYTHING WOULD BE WONDERFUL.

>> THE FOLK LEGEND AS THEY TAKE A NEW INTEREST IN HER RELATIONSHIP WITH BOB DYLAN AND LOOK BACK AT HER EXTRAORDINARY STORY.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND VICKI STRAUSS, THE FILAMENT DEVASTATING A FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> A WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT IS AN AGONIZING WEIGHT AND GAZA AND FOR ISRAELI HOSTAGE FAMILIES AS A CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL MOVES CLOSER AND CLOSER TO REALITY.

THE DEAL MEANT TO GO INTO EFFECT ON SUNDAY WILL BRING A 42 DAY RESPITE TO THE FIGHTING AND RELEASE DOZENS OF HOSTAGES WHO HAVE SPENT MORE THAN A YEAR NOW AND HAMAS CAPTIVITY.

IT WON'T GUARANTEE A PERMANENT AND TO THE WAR.

ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU FAR RIGHT FLANK IS INSISTING ON A RESUMPTION OF THE FIGHTING.

EVEN AS THE OUTGOING U.S. ADMINISTRATION URGES THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND HAMAS TO WORK TOWARDS A SECOND PHASE OF THE CEASE-FIRE.

HOW WILL ALL OF THIS PLAY OUT?

AFTER 15 MONTHS WHAT FURTHER SECURITY AIMS COULD MORE FIGHTING ACTUALLY ACHIEVE?

AMOS YADLIN IS A FORMER HEAD OF ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AND JOINS THE PROGRAM NOW, LIVE FROM TEL AVIV.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AND HAVE YOU WITH US AS WE CONTINUE DEVELOPMENTS THERE OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

WE KNOW THAT 33 ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND MORE THAN 1000 PALESTINIAN PRISONERS ARE TO BE RELEASED AND THAT IS THE FIRST STAGE OVER 42 DAYS.

THE IDF IS SUPPOSED TO WITHDRAW FROM CERTAIN CIVILIAN CENTERS, BUT THERE'S SO MUCH WE DO NOT KNOW.

HOW MANY ARE ALIVE, HOW MANY WILL THEY TRANSFER, WILL THIS UNFOLD THE WAY IT DID IN NOVEMBER 2023?

HOW ARE YOU EXPECTING ALL OF THIS TO UNFOLD IN THE COMING DAYS?

>> I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE HOSTAGES ARE INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

MOST OF THEM WERE TAKEN FROM THEIR HOME BY TERRORISTS.

NO CONNECTION WITH THE WORLD, NO VISITING.

THEY HAVEN'T SEEN LIGHT FOR MORE THAN A YEAR.

THOSE WHO ARE EXCHANGED ARE SENTENCED TERRORISTS.

DON'T MAKE IT AS AN EQUAL KIND OF DEAL.

IT IS TERRORISTS THAT BLACKMAILED THE COUNTRY.

HOWEVER, IN ISRAEL, 85% OF THE POPULATION WANT OUR DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS AND SONS TO COME BACK FROM THIS.

ISRAEL IS WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.

AS YOU SAID, THE DEAL HAS TWO STAGES.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THE SECOND.

THE SECOND STAGE.

THE FIRST ONE WAS AGREED.

HOW MANY TERRORISTS FALL EACH HOSTAGE, WHAT WILL BE THE ISRAELI REDEPLOYMENT AND TERRITORY AND ALL THE OTHER PARAMETERS.

ON THE SECOND STAGE, TO BRING BACK ALL THE HOSTAGES NEGOTIATIONS WILL START ON THE 16th DAY.

THIS IS A CRUCIAL MOMENT BECAUSE MANY IN ISRAEL, ME INCLUDED, WANT ALL THE HOSTAGES BACK.

WE ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.

AS HAMAS ALREADY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY TOOK THE PALESTINIAN CASE BACKWARD YEARS AND THEIR HOPE THAT THERE WILL BE CONVERGENCE OF OTHER FRONTS AGAINST ISRAEL IS NOW GOING THE OTHER WAY.

HEZBOLLAH IS DESTROYED, THE REGIME COLLAPSED.

THERE WILL BE TOUGH NEGOTIATION IN THE FUTURE, BUT WE WANT OUR PEOPLE BACK AND THEN IN THE THIRD STAGE PEOPLE WILL SPEAK ABOUT RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA.

RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA IS TO DO ONLY IF GAZA WILL BE DEMILITARIZED AND HAMAS WILL NOT COME ANYMORE.

>> YOU ARE ARTICULATING SOME VERY DIFFICULT THINGS.

I WANT TO DEAL WITH STAGE TWO.

THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT ANY STAGE TO DO THIS, WHICH IS CRUCIAL, WAS ACTUALLY BUILT TO FAIL.

I WANT TO QUOTE HERE A MILITARY ANALYST WHO SAID IN AN EDITORIAL AT STAGE 2 THERE WILL BE 65 HOSTAGES IN THE GAZA STRIP WITHIN HALF OF WHOM ARE APPARENTLY NO LONGER ALIVE.

MULTIPLE DIFFICULTIES COULD ARISE HERE.

WILL HAMAS KEEP ITS WORD AND RETURN EVERYONE?

WILL THE ORGANIZATION SUCCEED IN LOCATING ALL THE BODIES OF THE DEAD HOSTAGES AND EVEN MORE STRIKINGLY, DO THE PARTIES, NETANYAHU ON ONE SIDE AND THE HAMAS LEADER, THE BROTHER, ON THE OTHER HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING THEIR PROMISES TO THE U.S.?

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE THE PROSPECTS ARE OF KEEPING THIS DEAL INTACT?

I WANT TO EMPHASIZE SOMETHING YOU KNOW SO WELL.

WE KEEP THIS GROUNDED INHUMANITY.

THERE ARE FAMILIES WAITING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES.

THEY KNOW WILL ONLY COME HOME AND STAGE TWO.

>> WE ALWAYS WITH FAMILIES.

THE FAMILIES DESERVE ALL THE SUPPORT, THE SYMPATHY, THE HUGGING FROM AND THEY ARE GETTING IT FROM THE ISRAELI PUBLIC.

NETANYAHU HAS A PROBLEM.

NETANYAHU HAS TWO RIGHT-WING, EXTREME RIGHT-WING PARTIES THAT REALLY DOESN'T CARE.

THEY WANT DECISIVE AND ABSOLUTE VICTORY, THIS IS THE PARADOX, WHICH CANNOT BE ACHIEVED AS LONG AS WE CARE ABOUT THE HOSTAGES AND GAZA.

THE IDF CANNOT BE DECISIVE ENOUGH AND THE TERRORISTS MAY KILL THESE HOSTAGES.

EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE A HEART AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE MORAL COMPASS FROM OPERATIONAL AND A STRATEGIC POINT OF VIEW THERE IS A GOOD REASON TO REACH THE SECOND STAGE AND TO BRING ALL THE HOSTAGES BACK HOME.

SO, I HOPE NETANYAHU LOOKS INTO THE NEW ADMINISTRATION IN WASHINGTON AS AN ADMINISTRATION THAT WILL HELP HIM TO CONTINUE THE WAR.

HE GOT EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE MESSAGE.

YOU NEED TO END OF THE WAR.

ENDING THE WAR IS WHAT WILL BRING ALL THE HOSTAGES BACK HOME.

>> IT DOES BRING US TO WHAT NETANYAHU APPARENTLY TOLD A SECURITY CABINET TODAY THAT HE RECEIVED GUARANTEES FROM NEGOTIATORS THAT IF THIS DOES FALL APART THAT, YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL SAY YOU CAN RESUME YOUR FIGHTING AND GAZA.

AT THIS POINT IN TIME HOW HELPFUL IS THAT?

WE HAVEN'T EVEN COMPLETED STAGE ONE.

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT HAMAS WILL KNOW THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT WAS VERY POSITIVE IN ADVANCING THE DEAL CAN CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDE.

IN THE BLAME GAME IT WILL BE VERY APPARENT THAT HAMAS IS TO BLAME.

THEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAN ALLOW THE ISRAELIS TO DO THINGS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS UNABLE TO GIVE ISRAEL THESE TOOLS.

THE TOOLS OF HAVING MUCH MORE HUMANITARIAN AID NOT GOING TO HAMAS AND HELPING THEM AND MAYBE RECOGNIZING SOME TERRITORIAL CHANGES ON THE BORDER IN GAZA.

THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS LEVEL.

I DO HOPE THAT NETANYAHU WILL BE ABLE TO TELL HIS RIGHT WINGS THIS IS A MORAL AND STRATEGIC OPERATION TO BRING THE HOSTAGES, YES, WE ARE PLANNING ON ENDING THE WAR BUT HAMAS IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

FROM KNOWING HAMAS, SOONER OR LATER, THEY WILL FIRE ROCKETS AT ISRAEL.

THEY MAY TRY TO REBUILD THEIR MILITARY.

BY THE WAY, THERE IS A HUGE EFFECTIVE DRAMATIC TOOL AND HENRY KISSINGER WAS THE ONE THAT USED IT A LOT.

IT WAS USED IN LEBANON AS WELL.

IT IS A SITE AGREEMENT AND SITE LETTER FOR ISRAEL.

NOT A DEAL WITH HAMAS, AN AGREEMENT WITH THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION WHAT ISRAEL WILL BE ALLOWED TO DO IF HAMAS IS REBUILDING ITS MILITARY FORCE OR NOT LEAVING THE GAZA STRIP.

>> I UNDERSTAND YOU BELIEVE THAT WOULD HELP HAMAS.

I WANT TO GET TO SOME OTHER ISSUES HERE.

AS YOU KNOW AND YOU HEARD THIS EXPRESSION BEFORE, MANY ISRAELIS SAY THEIR ARMY IS THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD.

FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER, A MAN I KNOW YOU KNOW WELL, HE CERTAINLY DESCRIBED WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, HIS WORDS, ETHNIC CLEANSING.

HE RECENTLY SPOKE TO A LEADING EXPERT ABOUT THIS AND OTHER WAR CRIMES.

HE NOW BELIEVES GENOCIDE IS IN FACT TAKING PLACE.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN.

>> BY NOW WE HAVE A POPULATION THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DEBILITATED WITH VAST NUMBERS OF PEOPLE SUFFERING, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE, SUFFERING FROM SKIN DISEASES, INTESTINAL DISEASES, LACK OF FOOD, LACK OF WATER.

THERE'S BEEN SYSTEMATIC DESTRUCTION OF THESE PLANS.

NOT ENOUGH SUPPLY WATER COMING IN FROM ISRAEL, NO ENERGY.

IT LOOKS LIKE THAT THE GOAL IS TO MAKE GAZA UNINHABITABLE FOR ITS POPULATION.

>> YOU'VE HEARD HIS WORDS, YOU ARE A FORMER IDF GENERAL YOURSELF.

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE WAY THE IDF -- I'M GOING TO PINPOINT THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT, THE WAY THEY'VE CONDUCTED THEMSELVES IN THE LAST 15 MONTHS?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHO SPOKE BECAUSE I CANNOT SEE YOUR SCREEN, BUT NO DOUBT THAT ISRAEL IS NOT DOING A GENOCIDE IN GAZA.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFICULTIES, HUMANITARIAN DIFFICULTIES IN GAZA BUT IT HAS TO BE BECAUSE OF HAMAS.

HAMAS COULD HAVE FINISHED THIS WAR 15 MONTHS AGO IF THEY WOULD RETURN THE HOSTAGES AS THEY ARE DOING TODAY.

THIS CATASTROPHE, I'M NOT DENYING THERE IS A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE, HOWEVER WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT DURING WAR SUPPLY FOOD, FUEL AND ALL HUMANITARIAN HELP TO ITS ENEMY.

WHO IS IT GOING TO?

NOT TO ORGANIZATIONS THAT CARE ABOUT PEOPLE, NOT TO THE RED CROSS.

IT'S GOING TO HAMAS.

>> HE IS AN ISRAELI HIMSELF, AN EXPERT ON GENOCIDE.

I ASK YOU, I KNOW HOW YOU CONTRACT IT THESE ISSUES IN THE PAST.

>> I'M SAYING THAT WAR IS AN AWFUL PHENOMENON, HOWEVER ISRAEL IS BEHAVING ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW.

ONCE AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHO THE CLIP YOU PUT IN YOUR PROGRAM, WHO IS HE SO I CANNOT -- WHAT IS HIS NAME?

>> A GENOCIDE EXPERT THAT SPOKE.

>> IS HE ISRAELI?

>> HE IS.

CONTINUE.

>> OKAY.

I'M SAYING THAT ISRAEL IS FIGHTING ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT THE WAR IS AN AWFUL PHENOMENON.

INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE KILLED BUT EVERYBODY HAS TO REMEMBER WHO STARTED THIS WAR, WHO IS FIGHTING IT AGAINST CIVILIANS, WHO IS TAKING CIVILIANS AND PUTTING THEM IN TUNNELS, KILL THEM IN FRONT OF THEIR KIDS AND BEHEAD PARENTS IN FRONT OF THEIR GIRLS AND BOYS AND WHO IS REFUSING TO END THE WAR IN THE LAST 15 MONTHS?

THEY COULD STOP THE WAR IF THEY RETURN THE HOSTAGES.

THERE IS CATASTROPHE AND GAZA, BUT NONE OF THE FIGHTING ARMIES IN THIS CENTURY AND THE LAST CENTURY SUPPLY FOOD TO ITS ENEMY.

GENOCIDAL IDEA MAY BE IN THE EXTREME RIGHT OF ISRAEL, IT'S NOT THE POLICY OF THE IDF, I CAN PROMISE YOU.

>> WE SHALL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>>> IS A MAJOR NEWS FROM WASHINGTON, SUPREME COURT RULED A CONTROVERSIAL BAN ON TIKTOK MAY TAKE EFFECT THIS WEEKEND REJECTING AN APPEAL FROM THE POPULAR APP THAT CLAIMED A FORCED SHUTDOWN VIOLATES THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

U.S.

LAWMAKERS SAY THE MASSIVELY POPULAR APP IS A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK BECAUSE OF ITS TIES TO CHINA.

INCOMING PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SAYS WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE APP IS ULTIMATELY WITH HIM.

INTERESTINGLY, HE'S INVITED THE TIKTOK CEO TO ATTEND THE INAUGURATION AS HIS HONORED GUEST.

TIM WU IS A LONGTIME TECH AND SCHOLAR AND WORKED ON POLICY ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL UNTIL 2023.

HE JOINS THE PROGRAM NOW FROM NEW YORK.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE AS WE CONTINUE TO PARSE THE SUPREME COURT DECISION IN A WAY NEWS EVENTS HAVE ALREADY TAKEN OVER HERE.

IT DID RULE THE BAN COULD TAKE EFFECT THIS WEEKEND.

DO YOU BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT REALLY ROLLED RAPIDLY IN THIS DECISION RIGHT NOW?

>> I DO THINK THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

IT WAS A UNANIMOUS DECISION.

THEY CENTERED ON THE FACT THAT IT WAS ULTIMATELY NOT A FORM OF CENSORSHIP, THEY FELT THEY WERE TELLING TIKTOK WE NEED YOU TO GET A DIFFERENT OWNER BECAUSE CHINA IS AN ADVERSARY OF THE UNITED STATES AND IT GIVES ACCESS TO DATA AND IN PARTICULAR I DO THINK IT WAS RIGHT ON THE MERITS.

>> WHAT DOES -- IS CALLED PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM FOREIGN ADVERSARY CONTROLLED APPLICATIONS, WHAT DOES IT ACTUALLY SAY?

I WANT TO GET INTO THE HEART OF THIS BECAUSE THIS WAS PRESENTED TO CONGRESS AND THEN TO THE SUPREME COURT AS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> IT SAYS A COUPLE THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, IT SAYS THERE A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK FROM APPLICATIONS THAT CAN SHIP AMERICAN DATA AND MANIPULATE CONTENT, A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK.

IT INSTRUCTS THE APP STORES AND CONTENT PROVIDERS NOT TO PROVIDE ACCESS TO THE APPLICATIONS THEY NAME TIKTOK IN THE THING.

BASICALLY INSTRUCTS HIM TO FIND AN OWNER AND GIVES A BUNCH OF DEADLINES, THE LAST OF WHICH IS EXPIRING THIS SUNDAY.

IT IS AN EFFORT TO SAY WE ARE NOT TRYING TO SAY TIKTOK OR SOCIAL MEDIA IS BAD ITSELF, WE ARE TRYING TO SAY HAVING THE CHINESE STATE HAVE AMOUNTS OF SPYWARE EMBEDDED IN 140 MILLION U.S.

PHONES IS A SECURITY PROBLEM.

>> WHAT I'M ABOUT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ACTUALLY REVEALS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT BECAUSE CHINA HAS SAID, BYTEDANCE, TIKTOK IS NOT FOR SALE.

CNBC REPORTS FRANK McCOURT HAS FORMALLY OFFERED TO BUY TIKTOK AND ENTREPRENEUR KEVIN O'LEARY.

YET NO ONE SEEMS TO BE TAKING ANYONE UP ON THE OFFER, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK CHINA, WHY SHOULD THEY SELL IT?

IT'S A VALUABLE STRATEGIC ASSET.

I CAN'T SEE ANY REASON THEY WOULD WANT TO SELL.

THEY HAD THE SUPREME COURT DECISION, THERE WAS AN OUTSIDE CHANCE THAT THE LAW GOT STRUCK DOWN INTO THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO SELL?

IT'S USEFUL.

I THINK THAT'S WHY THERE'S BEEN AN IMPASSE.

>> DOESN'T THAT TELL US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW?

SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY IT'S SAVING FACE, THEY DON'T WANT TO LOOK WEAK IF THEY DO ENDORSE A SALE OR FORCE INTO A SALE OF TIKTOK, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THEY KNOW IT IS A SIGNIFICANT TOOL THEY CAN USE.

>> THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

THEY DON'T NEED THE MONEY.

ALSO I THINK THERE IS A SENSE -- THIS ISN'T LIKE A NORMAL OWNER WHO IS LIKE $1 BILLION MEANS ANYTHING TO THE NATION OF CHINA.

YOU KNOW, MAYBE 100 BILLION OR WHATEVER IT IS.

I THINK THEY ARE ALSO INTERESTED FRANKLY IN THE CONFUSION AND A SENSE THAT IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO BE POPULAR TO TAKE DOWN THIS APP, SO MAYBE THEY THINK IT'S A GOOD CHANCE TO SORT OF HUMILIATE OR PUT PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION BECAUSE HE HAS ONE SAID HE WANTED TO BAN TIKTOK AND NOW HE TURNED AROUND AND SAID HE WANTS TO TRY TO SAVE THEM.

IF I WERE CHINA I WOULD SIT HERE AND WATCH AND EAT SOME POPCORN.

>> FOR ITS OWN PROPAGANDA PURPOSES IT IS PRETTY MUCH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DOING A LOT OF WORK FOR THEM.

OUR CORRESPONDENT SPOKE TO PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP.

HE TOLD HER HE HAD A GREAT CALL WITH CHINESE PRESIDENT AND THEY SPOKE ABOUT TIKTOK.

LISTEN, GIVEN EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, THE FACT HE FIRST WANTED TO BAN THIS HE'S SAYING HE WILL SETTLE .

I KNOW HOW CLOSELY YOU'VE LOOKED AT THIS, CAN YOU SEE A WAY WHERE EVERYONE IS MADE HAPPY HERE GIVEN THE NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERN?

>> MAYBE.

THERE IS NO WAY EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY.

I THINK CHINA HAS THE UPPER HAND RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A SITUATION THAT CAN PROVOKE CHAOS.

AS YOU SAID, TRUMP HAS MULTIPLE DIFFERENT IDEAS GOING ON AT ONCE.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE UNHAPPY RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, HE LOVES TIKTOK ITSELF BECAUSE HE'S ON THERE.

HE LOVES ADULATION AND ATTENTION.

ON THE OTHER HAND HE SUPPOSEDLY TOUGH ON CHINA.

HOW CAN YOU DO A DEAL THAT MAKES THIS ALL COME TOGETHER?

THE MOST RATE FORWARD THING IS TO SELL IT, IT MAY BE TO ONE OF HIS FRIENDS OR SOMEONE HE THINKS IS AN ALLY.

THAT WOULD MAKE THEM HAPPY AND KEEP IT RUNNING.

THE CHALLENGES I DON'T THINK THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WILL HAND OVER THE ALGORITHM UNDER ANY CONDITION.

IT'S NOT THAT EASY TO FIGURE OUT.

OR IT WOULD'VE HAPPENED ALREADY IF THERE WAS AN EASY ANSWER.

>> THAT'S A FAIR POINT.

I'VE SPOKEN TO A COUPLE OF BUSINESS OWNERS, ENTREPRENEURS ON TIKTOK SAY IT IS THE ALGORITHM THAT THEY WANT.

THEY SEEM TO BE NOT UPSET ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE U.S.

SOLICITOR GENERAL ARGUING THAT TIKTOK CEMENTS DATASET GIVES CHINA A POWERFUL TOOL FOR HARASSMENT, RECRUITMENT AND ESPIONAGE.

CAN YOU BRING US THE BACK STORY OF ALL THAT?

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT SAY, COME ON.

REALLY?

DOES IT REALLY GIVE THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE USING IT.

I THINK IT CERTAINLY GIVES THAT.

LET'S GET INTO IT.

HAVING TIKTOK ON YOUR PHONE GIVES THE TIKTOK APP ACCESS NOT ONLY TO EVERYTHING YOU'RE DOING AND ALL YOUR CONTACTS BUT A LOT OF INFORMATION OF WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE AND ALL OF THEIR CONTACT LIST AND MAYBE WHO YOU'RE COMMUNICATING WITH.

IT IS A MAJOR PRIVACY THREAT AND IT'S KIND OF AMAZING WE PUT UP WITH IT.

IT'S BRILLIANT.

IT'S THE ULTIMATE TROJAN HORSE.

HERE'S A THING THAT HAS A BUNCH OF DANCING CATS AND EVERYONE LOVES IT, EVERYONE INSTALLS IT AND THEY DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF IT, BUT IT'S GOT TO BE ONE OF CHINA'S MOST USEFUL STRATEGIC ASSETS.

EVEN IF THEY DON'T USE IT, IF THEY NEED TO THEY'VE GOT IT.

THAT'S WHY IT'S PUTTING THE U.S.

IN A TERRIBLE SITUATION.

>> YOU DON'T THINK IT'S A HYPERBOLE TO SAY THEY COULD AND WOULD WEAPON I SAID IF THEY NEED TO?

I REMIND EVERYONE ABOUT THE CONTROVERSY TO THIS HOUR ABOUT TAIWAN AND CHINA'S STANCE ON TAIWAN AND THE U.S. ON TAIWAN.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A HYPERBOLE AT ALL.

WHATEVER THEY SAY IN PUBLIC, NATIONSTATES ARE STRATEGIC.

AS WE SAID THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT MANY.

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THEY CARE ABOUT A LONG-TERM STRATEGIC RATTLE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING EMBEDDED IN 140 MILLION AMERICAN CELL PHONE THAT IS A STRATEGIC ASSET.

THERE'S NO OTHER WORD FOR IT.

IF WE HAD THE NEW YORK TIMES PUBLISHING EVERY DAY IN CHINA AND EVERYONE IS READING IT THAT'S A STRATEGIC ASSET.

WHEN RUSSIANS AND SOVIETS AND THE SOVIET UNION WERE LISTENING TO AMERICAN RADIO THAT WAS A STRATEGIC ASSET.

THIS IS A LONG-TERM STRUGGLE AND THOSE ALL COUNT IN THE ONGOING CONTEST BETWEEN NATIONS.

>> WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW TIKTOK HANDLE THIS?

THE CEO WILL ATTEND DONALD TRUMP'S INAUGURATION AND HAVE A PLACE OF HONOR THERE.

THEY FLOODED D.C. WITH LOBBYISTS AND THIS HAS ALL SEEMED TO WORK.

DO YOU BELIEVE CHINA IS SITTING BACK AND SAYING MISSION ACCOMPLISHED HERE AND WHY?

WHAT HOLD DOES THIS HAVE?

I KNOW IT HAS HUGE CULTURAL INFLUENCE IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD, BUT ISN'T THIS A WIN FOR TIKTOK?

>> THEIR LAWSUIT DIDN'T WORK, LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO WIN.

THEIR LOBBYING HASN'T NOT BEEN EFFECTIVE AGAINST CONGRESS.

CONGRESS PASSED THIS LAW BY AN OVERWHELMING BIPARTISAN MAJORITY.

I WOULD SAY IT'S MIXED.

THEIR CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE.

REALLY, AT LEAST EFFECTIVE IN ATTRACTING SUPPORT.

THEY HAVEN'T MANAGED TO GET IN DEEPER.

I GUESS THE BIGGEST SUCCESS HAS BEEN DONALD TRUMP.

IN SOME WAYS IT'S KIND OF AMAZING THAT HE'S TOTALLY REVERSED POSITIONS ON THIS AND IS NOW INVITING -- I GUESS THAT HAS TO BE A TRIUMPH INVITING THE HEAD OF TIKTOK TO SIT THERE DURING INAUGURATION WHEN HE'S ACTUALLY A FOREIGN ASSET.

>> PROMISING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM OF TIKTOK AND YOU'VE ALREADY POINTED OUT IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

JUST TO ADD TO THIS, MARK ZUCKERBERG, JEFF BEZOS, ELON MUSK WILL BE WITH DONALD TRUMP WHEN HE'S INAUGURATED.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO PRESIDENT BIDEN AND I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD THIS ALREADY WE WILL REMIND OUR VIEWERS HIS WARNING OF ALL THIS.

>> THIS IS A DANGEROUS CONCENTRATION OF POWER IN THE HANDS OF VERY FEW ULTRA WEALTHY PEOPLE.

THE DANGEROUS CONSEQUENCES, IF THEIR ABUSE OF POWER IS LEFT UNCHECKED.

TODAY, AN OLIGARCHY IS TAKING SHAPE IN AMERICA OF EXTREME WEALTH, POWER AND INFLUENCE.

IT LITERALLY THREATENS OUR ENTIRE DEMOCRACY.

OUR BASIC RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AND A FAIR SHOT FOR EVERYONE TO GET AHEAD.

>> ARE MERELY CURIOUS TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS.

IT WAS STRIKING TO HEAR THIS IN THE MIDDLE OF A SPEECH AND WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS YEARS OF RUSSIA EXPERIENCE AND LIVED THERE THE WORD OLIGARCH REALLY STANDS OUT.

>> I THINK THAT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS CONSISTENT ABOUT THAT AND WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT THAT IN THE WHITE HOUSE AS THE MOVE OF THE UNITED STATES TO IT'S VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF COUNTRY.

YOU MENTIONED RUSSIA, ONE IN WHICH YOU HAVE ULTRA WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS NOT REALLY EMPOWERED TO EXERCISE DISPROPORTIONATE INFLUENCE AND SUDDENLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE TECH LEADERS, THE TECH BILLIONAIRES ARE LINING UP TO BE THAT PERSON.

I CAN SEE WHY THEY WANT TO DO IT.

FOR A LONG TIME TECH WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH WASHINGTON, THEY SAID STAY AWAY.

THE NEW TREND IS TO SAY WE WANT TO BE BEST FRIENDS WITH THE WHITE HOUSE FOR ALL THESE REASONS AND BE THERE, EVEN BE PART OF GOVERNMENT IN THE CASE OF ELON MUSK IN THIS RANDOM QUASI-WHITE HOUSE OFFICE.

IT'S A VERY DISTURBING DEVELOPMENT AND I'M AFRAID OF THE UNITED STATES BECOMING A PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE THE MOST POWERFUL EXECUTIVES AND INDUSTRIES ALLIED WITH GOVERNMENT, THAT'S A DANGEROUS FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

>> QUITE A SOBERING OPINION YOU'VE JUST GIVEN US.

AS WE CONTINUE TO SEE UNFOLD IN THE COMING DAYS AND WEEKS.

THANK YOU, REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>>> NOW, WE WERE JUST TALKING.

TIKTOK AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS HAVE A SCRUTINY FROM HEALTH EXPERTS FOR INCREASING LONELINESS, PARTICULARLY AMONG TEENAGERS.

AS THE U.S.

SURGEON GENERAL NEARS THE END OF HIS SECOND TERM AS THE NATION'S DR. HIS PARTING PRESCRIPTION IS TO FOSTER A STRONGER SENSE OF COMMUNITY.

DATA FROM HIS DEPARTMENT SHOW AMERICANS ARE HANGING OUT IN PERSON LESS AND LESS WITH EACH PASSING YEAR.

THAT IS THE FOCUS OF DEREK THOMPSON'S LATEST PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC.

IT IS THE ANTISOCIAL CENTURY.

HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT CAN BE DONE.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOUR NEW PIECE COVER STORY FOR THE ATLANTIC IS CALLED THE ANTISOCIAL CENTURY.

YOU SAY THAT THIS SELF-IMPOSED SOLITUDE MIGHT JUST BE THE MOST IMPORTANT SOCIAL FACT OF 21ST- CENTURY AMERICA.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> FOR 60 YEARS STATISTICS ASKED AMERICANS HOW THEY SPEND THEIR DAY AND WEEK.

HOW MUCH DO YOU SPEND SLEEPING, EATING FOOD?

WHAT THEY FOUND IS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS IN PARTICULAR THE NUMBER OF AMERICANS OR THE AMOUNT OF TIME AMERICANS SPEND FACE-TO-FACE SOCIALIZING HAS THE CLIENT FOR EVERY SIGNAL DEMOGRAPHIC.

NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE OR YOUNG ADULTS OR MIDDLE-AGE PEOPLE OR OLD PEOPLE IT'S ALL AGES.

NOT JUST BLACK OR WHITE IT'S ALL ETHNICITIES.

NOT JUST COLLEGE GRADUATES OR PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T GO, IT'S EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY OF EDUCATION.

EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY YOU COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF DEMOGRAPHICALLY SPEAKING IS SPENDING LESS TIME IN FACE-TO- FACE SOCIALIZING THAN THEY DID 20 YEARS AGO OR REALLY THAN THEY DID 60 YEARS AGO AND THAT'S WHY THE HEADLINE HERE IS WE ARE SPENDING, AMERICANS ARE SPENDING MORE TIME ALONE THAN IN ANY PERIOD FOR WHICH WE HAVE TRUSTWORTHY DATA.

>> YOU ACTUALLY OPEN YOUR PIECE WITH SOMETHING YOU NOTICED IN YOUR OWN TOWN.

WHY DO YOU TELL THAT STORY?

>> AS I WAS WRITING THE ARTICLE MY WIFE AND I AND MY BABY DAUGHTER WENT OUT TO A MEXICAN RESTAURANT HERE AND WE GET IN AROUND 5:00, OUR DAUGHTER EATS DINNER EARLY AND THERE'S NO ONE IN THE RESTAURANT THERE'S A BAR AND THERE ARE NINE LARGE PAPER BAGS ON THE BAR ALONG WITH A SIGN THAT SAYS BAR SEATING CLOSE.

THAT'S INTERESTING THEY CLOSE THE BAR TO BECOME A DEPOT FOR TAKE AWAY FOOD.

OVER THE NEXT HALF HOUR FIVE, 10, 12 PEOPLE WALKING TO THE RESTAURANT, SAY NOTHING TO ANYBODY, GRAB A BAG AND LEAVE.

I THOUGHT THIS IS CRAZY, BUSINESS IS BOOMING FOR THIS RESTAURANT BUT NO ONE IS SITTING DOWN AND NO ONE IS TALKING TO EACH OTHER BECAUSE TAKEAWAY HAS EXCEEDED TABLES AS THE MAIN BUSINESS OF THE RESTAURANT.

I DID SOME RESEARCH AND FOUND OUT ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION 74% OF ALL TRAFFIC TO RESTAURANTS IN 2023 WAS FOR OFF PREMISES SALES.

THAT IS TAKEAWAY AND DELIVERY.

THAT WAS LIKE WHAT AN INCREDIBLE METAPHOR FOR THIS ANTISOCIAL CENTURY I'M TRYING TO WRITE ABOUT.

THE BAR, THE PLACE WHERE YOU SHOULD BE HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH STRANGERS OR FRIENDS IN YOUR COMMUNITY HAS BEEN CLOSED AND TURNED INTO A SILENT DEPOT WHERE PEOPLE COME AND WITHOUT SAYING A WORD TO EACH OTHER JUST GRAB FOOD SO THEY CAN EAT BACK AT THEIR HOUSE WHEREBY THE WAY THEY SPEND MORE TIME THAN IN ANY OTHER PERIOD FOR WHICH WE HAVE THE DATA.

ONCE I SAW THAT SCENE I THOUGHT IT'S OVER, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FIRST 1000 WORDS OF THE ESSAY.

>> COVID PLAYED A ROLE HERE.

A LOT OF US WERE FORCED TO SPEND TIME ALONE OR NOT GO TO PLACES WE WERE USED TO GOING, BUT YOU SAY THIS GOES BEYOND COVID.

THIS IS A TREND THAT STARTED LONG BEFORE THE COVID PANDEMIC.

>> I THINK IT'S A 60-YEAR-OLD TREND THAT WAS BRIEFLY ACCELERATED BY THE PANDEMIC BUT THERE'S INFORMATION THAT SUGGESTS WE SPEND MORE TIME ALONE IN 2023 THEN WE DID IN 2021 WHEN ALL THE VACCINES ROLLED OUT.

THIS IS SOMETHING BIGGER THAN COVID, EVEN IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HEAR SOLITUDE AND THINK I SPENT THAT YEAR BASICALLY IN LOCKDOWN OR IN ISOLATION.

WHEN I ROLL BACK THE CLOCK TO THE MIDDLE OF THE 20th CENTURY AND THINK HOW DID THIS HAPPEN ESPECIALLY STARTING THE 1950s AND 60s, THERE'S A FAMOUS BOOK CALLED BOWLING ALONE WHERE HE RESEARCHED THIS QUESTION IN- DEPTH, A BOOK OF HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF RESEARCH.

THE MOST COMPELLING INFORMATION TO ME, THE MOST COMPELLING POINT YOU MADE TO ME ABOUT THE CAUSES OF THE ANTISOCIAL CENTURY IS IN THE 1950s AND 60s YOU SAW THE EMERGENCE OF SEVERAL REALLY IMPORTANT TECHNOLOGIES THAT CHANGED ALL OF OUR LIVES.

YOU HAVE THE CAR WHICH PRIVATIZED OUR LIVES, ALLOWED US TO DRIVE AWAY FROM CITIES TOWARD SUBURBS.

WE SPENT MORE TIME ALONE AT HOME IN OUR BACKYARD.

1950s AND 1960S YOU HAVE POPULARIZATION OF THE TELEVISION .

THE CAR PRIVATIZED OUR LIVES, THE TELEVISION PRIVATIZED OUR LEISURE.

THERE IS EVIDENCE SUGGESTING BETWEEN THE 1960S AND 1990S THE TYPICAL AMERICAN GOT ABOUT SIX EXTRA HOURS OF LEISURE TIME PER WEEK.

WHAT DID WE DO WITH THAT EXTRA 300 HOURS PER YEAR?

ASK YOURSELF OR A FRIEND IF YOU HAD AN EXTRA 300 HOURS PER YEAR WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH THAT TIME?

LEARN A NEW LANGUAGE, LEARN A NEW INSTRUMENT, PLAY SPORTS?

PEOPLE SPENT ALMOST ALL THE TIME WATCHING TELEVISION.

NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE BIT OF TV BUT 300 EXTRA HOURS OF TV A YEAR IS A LOT.

>> DISINVITES THE QUESTION IS THIS BAD?

YOU SUGGEST IT'S NOT GREAT.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH PEOPLE SPENDING MORE TIME ALONE?

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THIS IS ME TIME, I'M REFRESHING MYSELF.

>> IT'S BAD.

LET ME BE CLEAR WHY.

I'M THE FATHER OF A 17 MONTH OLD.

I KNOW AS WELL AS ANYONE HOW PRECIOUS AND FRANKLY HOW CLOSE TO HEAVEN ONE NIGHT ALONE AWAY FROM A SCREAMING BABY CAN BE.

IT IS THE NEXT THING TO GOD.

THAT SAID, AS WITH ANY THERAPEUTIC, THE DOSE MATTERS.

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SPENDING ONE NIGHT ALONE BETWEEN SAYING I FEEL GREAT ABOUT NOT BEING AROUND PEOPLE TODAY AND NEED TO RECHARGE AND SPENDING MORE TIME ALONE YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR AND DECADE AFTER DECADE AFTER DECADE .

THAT'S WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

A KIND OF OVERDOSE ON SOLITUDE.

RESEARCH SUGGESTS IF YOU ASKED PEOPLE HOW MUCH YOU TIME SPEND WITH FOLKS ALONE IN TIME PEOPLE SPEND MORE TIME ALONE TEND TO BE MUCH LESS HAPPY.

5% REDUCTION IN SOCIALIZING TIME REDUCED HAPPINESS AS MUCH AS A 10% REDUCTION IN INCOME.

IF YOU THINK HOW HAPPY WOULD YOU BE IF YOUR BOSS SUDDENLY SAID I'M GOING TO SLASHER SALARY BY 10%, THAT'S THE EFFECT OF JUST A FEW YEARS OF INCREASED ALONE TIME IN AMERICA.

I THINK QUIET IS BLESSED.

I THINK ALONE TIME CAN BE A TRUE SALVE FOR THE SOUL, BUT THE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL ISOLATION THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING IN AMERICA TODAY I THINK IT'S BAD FOR US AS INDIVIDUALS AND BAD FOR US AS A COMMUNITY.

>> YOU SAID SOLITUDE AND LONELINESS ARE NOT THE SAME.

YOU QUOTE THE SOCIOLOGIST THAT SAYS IT'S ACTUALLY A VERY HEALTHY EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO FEEL SOME LONELINESS.

HOW SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THIS DIFFERENCE?

SOME OF THE GREAT MORAL THINKERS, RELIGIOUS LEADERS ALL SPENT TIME IN QUIET CONTEMPLATION ALONE.

JESUS, JOHN, BAPTIST MOSES, BUDDHA, THEY ALL SPENT TIME THINKING ALONE BUT YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S SOMETHING THAT GOES BEYOND THAT.

YOU CALL IT ANTISOCIAL.

>> I WANT TO MAKE TWO POINTS.

WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT JESUS AND JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS GALVANIZING.

THE FIRST POINT IS ON LONELINESS , I THINK LONELINESS CAN BE HEALTHY.

LONELINESS IS THE EXPERIENCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL CONNECTION YOU HAVE AND THE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL CONNECTION YOU WANT TO HAVE.

MANY TIMES WE FEEL AT THE END OF A WEEK OR A FEW WEEKS I'M FEELING KIND OF LONELY I WANT TO REACH OUT TO A FRIEND.

I WANT TO SEE SOMEONE AND GET A DRINK.

THAT'S A WONDERFUL HEALTHY FEELING.

WHAT WE ARE EXPANDING INSTEAD I'M AFRAID WITH DECADE AFTER DECADE OF RISING ALONENESS IS THE OPPOSITE OF LONELINESS.

LONELINESS IS THE INSTINCT TO BE AROUND PEOPLE, BUT FOR MANY IN PARTICULAR YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY I SEE THE INSTINCT TO BE WITH YOURSELF.

TO HAVE ME TIME FOLLOWED BY ME TIME FOLLOWED BY ME TIME, THAT'S NOT RESPONDING TO LONELINESS, THAT SOMETHING ELSE.

THE SECOND THING I WANT TO SAY IS IN FINISHING THIS PIECE I WAS WATCHING A VIDEO THAT THE AUTHOR MADE TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH OF QUIET IN AMERICA AND HOW PEOPLE JUST CAN'T BE BY THEMSELVES IN THE QUIET ANYMORE.

I THINK TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THE PHONE CONTAMINATES OUR QUIET.

IF JESUS WENT AWAY FOR HIS DAYS IN THE DESERT AND HAD A PHONE ON HIM AND WAS CONSTANTLY CHECKING BACK ON ROMAN TWITTER I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE OTHER ELEVATIONS HE HAD BECAUSE HE WOULD BE SUCKED INTO THE CROWD.

I'M BEING FACETIOUS BUT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR SOLITUDE TO BE TRULY QUIET, BUT ONE THING I THINK THESE PHONES DO IS THEY MAKE OUR TIME IN CROWDS FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE ALONE BECAUSE WE CAN ALWAYS PULL OUT OUR PALMS AND LOOKED DOWN INTO OUR PALM AND BE AWAY FROM A CROWD.

THEY ALSO MAKE OUR SOLITUDE MORE CROWDED.

WE CAN BE HOME ALONE WANTING TO RECHARGE AND HAVE GREAT THOUGHTS OR LOOK INSIDE OF OURSELVES AND WE CAN'T HELP BUT PULL OUT OUR PHONES AND DIP INTO SOCIAL MEDIA AND BECOME CONTAMINATED BY CROWD THINK.

I THINK THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE KIND OF QUIET SOLITUDE THAT CAN BE TRULY REPLENISHING AND THE KIND OF SOLITUDE MOST PEOPLE EXPERIENCE WHEN THEY ARE ON THEIR COUCHES FLICKING ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> WE SAY THIS ALL THE TIME WE ARE SOCIAL BEINGS.

I'M WONDERING HOW IT HAPPENED?

WERE THESE CONSCIOUS CHOICES PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING FOR THEMSELVES OR HAVE THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATED THIS AND WE'VE ADAPTED TO IT?

>> THE SOCIOLOGIST QUOTED TOLD ME AT ONE POINT DURING MY REPORTING THAT WE DO CHOOSE BUT WE DON'T CHOOSE THE SET OF OPTIONS THAT WE HAVE.

I THINK OUR BUILT ENVIRONMENT IN THIS CASE SHAPE OUR CHOICES.

I THINK IT'S MEANINGFUL THAT WHILE WE HAVE BEEN TALKING RIGHTLY ABOUT THE WAYS OUR INNER LIVES HAVE CHANGED WITH THE RISE OF TELEVISION AND SMARTPHONES THERE'S BEEN PHYSICAL WORLD CHANGES AS WE DRIVE OUT TO THE SUBURBS, WE LIVE FURTHER AWAY, THE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE BUILT IN THE COUNTRY IN THE LAST 50 YEARS CLEARLY DECLINED FROM ITS PEAK MAYBE IN THE 1950s AND 1960S.

THERE'S ENVIRONMENT CHANGES THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT, BUT I ALSO THINK MAYBE PEOPLE DON'T FULLY RECOGNIZE WHAT THEY ARE CHOOSING WHEN THEY MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR LIFE.

WHEN WE STAY AT HOME AND WATCH NETFLIX OR ORDER AND WHO HASN'T DONE THAT?

I ORDER FOOD TO EAT HERE AT HOME ALL THE TIME.

WHEN WE MAKE THOSE CHOICES WE AREN'T CALCULATING IN THAT MOMENT HERE'S THE HOURS NOT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, HERE'S OTHER HOURS NOT SPENT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

WHEN I WANTED TO DO WITH THIS AS A IS TO HOLD UP A MIRROR TO AMERICA AND SAY HERE ARE THE CHOICES YOU'RE MAKING EVERY DAY TO SURROUND YOURSELF WITH ENTERTAINMENT, TO BE IN YOUR HOME LONGER AND OUR HOMES ARE MORE COMFORTABLE THAN HE USED TO BE COMING HERE'S A SET OF CHOICES WE ARE MAKING AND HERE IS THE BILL THAT IS COME DUE.

THE BILL THAT IS COME DUE IS HISTORIC AMOUNTS OF ALONE TIME IN WAYS I THINK ARE CHANGING OUR PERSONALITY AND CHANGING OUR POLITICS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE FULLY COGNIZANT OF THE COSTS OF THE CHOICES THEY'RE MAKING.

MY HOPE IS THIS HELPS THEM TO SEE THE RECEIPT, THE BILL SO TO SPEAK OF THOSE CHOICES.

>> WHAT ABOUT OTHER COST YOU SEE AS BEING THE PRICE OF ALL THIS?

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONSEQUENCES YOU SEE?

>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL COST.

WE HAVE A LOT OF GOOD DATA THAT SUGGESTS YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE FEWER FRIENDS OF THE USED TO HAVE, GO OUT WITH HIS FRIENDS LESS THAN THEY USED TO AND I THINK THAT'S A MAJOR PROBLEM.

I THINK POLITICALLY IT'S CREATING MAJOR PROBLEMS.

I TALKED TO A BROWN UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER AND AUTHOR, THEY MADE A COMPELLING POINT THAT YOU MAY THINK ABOUT IT IN AN IRONIC WAY THAT IN THE AGE OF THE PHONE OUR FAMILIES ARE TIGHTER THAN THEY USED TO BE.

I TEXT MY WIFE ALL THE TIME AND PEOPLE ARE IN TOUCH WITH THEIR KIDS MORE THAN THEY USED TO BE.

THE INNER RING A FAMILY IS VERY TIGHT AND YOU CAN THINK OF AN OUTER RING, A TRIBE WHERE I'M VERY IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE WHO SHARE MY IDEAS ABOUT ALONENESS OR ECONOMICS OR POLITICS WHETHER IT'S ON TWITTER OR EMAIL OR GROUP TEXT.

ANYWAY YOU HAVE THIS WEIRD SITUATION WHERE THE INNER RING A FAMILY IS STRENGTHENED AND THE OUTER RING OF TRIBE IS STRENGTHENED BUT THERE IS A MIDDLE RING, THE VILLAGE.

THE PEOPLE WE LIVE NEXT TO, NEIGHBORS, THE PEOPLE IN OUR TOWNS AND WE DON'T KNOW THEM AS WELL AS WE USED TO.

THE REASON I THINK THAT MATTERS IS WELL FAMILY TEACHES US TO LOVE AND WHILE THE TRIBE TEACHES US LOYALTY OR IDEOLOGY I THINK THE VILLAGE TEACHES US TOLERANCE.

IT IS INSTRUCTIVE OF TOLERANCE TO BE AROUND PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE NOT RELATED TO, THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH ABOUT THINGS BECAUSE YOU LEARN YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE WHILE STILL SEEING THEM AS FULLY HUMAN.

IN THE ABSENCE OF A STRONG VILLAGE-BASED CULTURE IN THIS COUNTRY I THINK YOU GET POLITICIANS LIKE DONALD TRUMP WHO ARE IN ALL TRIBE NO VILLAGE AVATAR OF POLITICS AND I THINK YOU HAVE PARTIES THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER AND WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

THERE'S SOME POLLS SUGGESTING REPUBLICAN TEENAGERS SAY THEY WILL NEVER TAKE A DEMOCRAT AND DEMOCRATIC TEENAGERS ARE MORE LIKELY TO SAY THEY WILL NEVER DATE A REPUBLICAN.

THAT'S A WORLD WHERE WE HAVE TIGHT FAMILIES AND TIGHT TRIBES AND WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER AT THE LEVEL OF THE VILLAGE.

>> ONE THING YOU SAID EARLIER AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOLITUDE AND LONELINESS.

LONELINESS IS A WISH FOR COMPANY AND IT MAKES ME WONDER WHY DON'T THESE PEOPLE GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING?

>> I DON'T HAVE A PERFECT ANSWER BUT I HAVE A THEORY.

I THINK WE ARE DISNEY VAULT TO LIVE IN THIS ATTENTION ENVIRONMENT.

WE ARE CONSTANTLY STIMULATED BY NOVELTY AND ENTERTAINMENT AND IF WE ARE ON THE INTERNET AND IN SOME POLITICAL MESSAGING AREA, OUTRAGE AND OUTGROUP ANIMOSITY.

YOU OPEN UP YOUR PHONE AND YOU'RE IMMEDIATELY BOMBARDED WITH THE STIMULUS THEY GET YOUR DOPAMINE GOING.

I DON'T THINK WE SPENT ENOUGH TIME IN THIS NEW INTENTIONAL ECOSYSTEM TO LEARN WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

MANY TIMES I THINK PEOPLE FIND THEMSELVES SO OVERWHELMED BY THE AMOUNT OF DOPAMINE AND CORTISOL THEY GET GOING CHEMICALLY WHEN THEY'RE ON THEIR PHONES AND COMPUTERS THAT IT SOMEWHAT EXHAUSTS THEM.

THEY PUT THEIR PHONE DOWN AND CLOSE THE COMPUTER OR MAYBE A FRIEND REACHES OUT, THEY ARE LIKE I'M EXHAUSTED.

I DON'T WANT TO GET A DRINK.

I'M TOTALLY .

I SPENT ALL THIS TIME FEELING ANGRY AND CORTISOL RUSHING THROUGH MY VEINS, I WANT TO JUST A HOME.

I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE WE ARE, TRAGICALLY, SAPPING OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE WE ARE DUMPING ALL OF OUR DOPAMINE AT OUR SCREENS.

WE ARE WASTING OUR DOPAMINE HAVING THESE LOW-RENT VERSIONS OF SOCIAL INTERACTIONS THROUGH A SCREEN WHEN WE COULD HAVE A MUCH HIGHER QUALITY EXPERIENCE WE SOMETIMES FIND A WAY TO PUT THESE THINGS DOWN.

TO THE QUESTION WHY DON'T WE PUT THESE THINGS DOWN, IT'S BECAUSE WE ARE DISNEY VAULT TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THESE THINGS.

THEY ARE SO GOOD AT CAPTURING ONE PART OF WHAT MAKES US HUMAN WHICH IS OUR SENSITIVITY TO NOVELTY AND ENVIRONMENT THAT WE FORGET THIS OTHER PART OF BEING HUMAN WHICH IS BEING THERE FOR EACH OTHER.

>> WHAT IS THE ANSWER BESIDE PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN?

>> THE STRANGE THING ABOUT THE PRESCRIPTION TO THIS DISEASE IS IT IS SIMULTANEOUSLY THE EASIEST AND HARDEST ANSWER IN THE WORLD.

EASY BECAUSE THE ANTIDOTE TO LONELINESS IS FREE AND OBVIOUS, IT'S BEING WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

THE PROBLEM IS BEING WITH OTHER PEOPLE CAN BE A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM.

IT'S HARD IF FOLKS AROUND YOU ARE NOT HANGING OUT WITH EACH OTHER.

IT'S HARD TO START A NEW RITUAL LIKE DINNER PARTIES FOR YOUR FRIENDS IF YOUR FRIENDS NEVER GO OUT TO DINNER PARTIES.

IT'S A COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM AND DIFFICULT TO SOLVE, BUT I'M OPTIMISTIC WE CAN SOLVE IT.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CULTURE AND SCIENCE IS SCIENCE IS A STORY THAT TENDS TO MOVE IN ONE DIRECTION.

DRUGS GET BETTER AND BETTER AND BETTER, CULTURE IS THIS.

CULTURE IS PROGRESS AND BACKLASH AND PROGRESS AND BACKLASH AND WHAT IS THE COOLEST TYPE OF GENES, ARE THEY SKINNY?

THAT IS CULTURE.

WE'VE HAD DECADES WITH AN ANTISOCIAL CENTURY BUT THEY ARE PRECEDED BY DECADES WITH A VERY SOCIAL CENTURY IN THE EARLY 1900S WE HAD RISING RATES OF MARRIAGE AND FERTILITY AND UNION MEMBERSHIP AND ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF CLUB ASSOCIATIONS.

WE HAD A MORAL REVOLUTION IN THIS COUNTRY AND WE CAN HAVE ANOTHER MORAL REVOLUTION IN THIS COUNTRY BUT IT BEGINS WITH THE OBSERVATION WITH THE SELF- DIAGNOSIS THAT WE ARE DOING THIS TO OURSELVES.

THIS IS A DISEASE WE ARE GIVING OURSELVES, THAT'S THE BAD NEWS.

THE GOOD NEWS IS WE ALL HAVE THE QR, WE KNOW HOW TO BE WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND WE CAN DO IT MORE.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

LET'S GET TOGETHER.

>>> FINALLY, TO A MUSICIAN WHO HAS BROUGHT MILLIONS OF FANS TOGETHER.

BOB DYLAN SET THE WORLD ABLAZE WHEN HE WENT ELECTRIC IN 1965.

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW THAT HE'S GONE TIKTOK?

HE JOINED THE SOCIAL MEDIA GIANT THIS WEEK DAYS BEFORE IT IS SET TO BE BANNED.

IT'S ALL PART OF A CURRENT RESURGENCE DUE TO THE NEW BIOPIC A COMPLETE UNKNOWN.

WHILE PEOPLE ARE GOING FOR DYLAN MANY ARE ALSO REDISCOVERING THE FOLK LEGEND JOAN BAEZ.

THE ROCK 'N ROLL HALL OF FAMER HAS BEEN PERFORMING FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY.

OFTEN MIXING HER SOARING FIBROTIC WITH POWERFUL PROTEST ANTHEMS.

NOW, WHEN SHE WAS ON HER FINAL GLOBAL TOUR IN 2018 BAEZ MADE TIME TO SPEAK WITH CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON ABOUT HER LIFE ON THE ROAD, MUSIC AND HOW THE PROTESTS FOR GUN CONTROL INSPIRED HER.

>> JOAN BAEZ, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

TELL ME WHAT IT ACTUALLY TAKES TO BE ON THE ROAD FOR SIX WEEKS?

HOW MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IT IS AT YOUR AGE TO GET YOUR VOICE READY TO BE ON STAGE?

>> JUST THAT.

THIS MUSCLE IS NOT FLEXIBLE THE WEIGHT USED TO BE SO JUST PICTURE A TENNIS PLAYER AND SOMEBODY SAYS WHAT YOU PLAY THE WAY YOU USED TO?

SPENDING ALL THAT TIME KEEPING THE MUSCLE TONED UP.

IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT AND TIME.

>> I WANT TO PLAY AN EXCERPT OF ONE OF YOUR MOST FAMOUS SONGS.

WE ARE GOING TO PLAY IT AND THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT IT.

[ MUSIC ] >> YOU TALK ABOUT THE MUSCLE THAT CREATED THAT VOICE, ONE OF THE PUREST TRUEST NOTES IN MUSIC HISTORY AND MANY DESCRIBED IT LIKE THAT.

DO YOU MISS THAT VOICE, DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT?

>> I DO NOT HAVE IT AND I DO MISS IT.

I HAD TO COME TO TERMS WITH WHAT I DO HAVE AND THAT TOOK ME SEVERAL YEARS BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE THE SOUND COMING OUT, I DIDN'T LIKE ANY OF IT.

I SAW EAR NOSE AND THROAT, I THOUGHT MAYBE A PIMPLE ON MY VOCAL CHORDS THEY TAKE IT OFF.

HE SAID THIS IS YOU.

THIS IS IT.

THE FIRST HALF WAS ACCEPTING WHAT I HAD TO WORK WITH WAS WHAT I HAD THERE.

THEY SUGGESTED A VOCAL THERAPIST.

THIS WOMAN INTO SESSIONS GAVE ME SO MANY TO NEW TOOLS.

THE FUND CAME BACK.

I WANTED TO WALK ON STAGE AND ENJOY MYSELF SO THAT STARTED COMING BACK AND THAT WAS A REAL TREASURE.

>> THIS IS WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND, SOME OF THE NEW STUFF.

[ MUSIC ] >> IT DOES SOUND DIFFERENT.

WHAT DID YOU DO DIFFERENTLY?

HOW HAVE YOU HAD TO RE-ENGAGE OR RE-EMPLOY YOUR VOCAL CORDS?

>> IT'S REALLY REINVENT.

THIS IS NOW A MUCH MORE HONEST VOICE THAT REFLECTS 60 YEARS ON THE ROAD.

IT'S RASPY AND I LIKE THE RESULTS OF WHAT WE GOT ON THE ALBUM.

>> YOU HAVE SAID FOR ABOUT A QUARTER OF A CENTURY, LITERALLY 25 YEARS, YOU DIDN'T WRITE A WORD, A LYRIC UNTIL THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

YOU FOUND DONALD TRUMP INSPIRING ON MANY LEVELS, NOT JUST THAT HE GOT YOU TO WRITE AGAIN AND ALSO THE ACTIVISM WHICH IS SO DEAR TO YOUR HEART AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE HAD A WHOLE NEW FLOURISHING.

>> I THINK IN THE PAST WEEK IT HAD THE BIGGEST BUMP AND HAS SINCE THE MILLION WOMAN MARCH.

IT'S COME OUT OF NOWHERE, IT'S HONEST, IT'S HUGE.

I'VE NEVER HEARD THE CEO OF THE NATIONAL RIFLE ORGANIZATION OUT THERE DEFENDING HIMSELF AND MAKING POLITICALLY STUPID REMARKS.

THE KIDS ARE IN THAT TALK AT ALL AND THEY SUDDENLY HAVE THIS MOMENTUM AND THEY HAVE PEOPLE WANTING TO SUPPORT THEM AND BE WITH THEM, THEY ARE MAKING SENSE .

WE HAVE KIND OF WRITTEN OFF THAT GENERATION SAYING THEY ONLY THINK ABOUT THEMSELVES AND SOME OF THEM COME AGAIN, BUT THIS IS ASTOUNDING.

>> I WILL PLAY WHEN EMMA GONZALES SAID.

>> THEY SAY THAT TOUGHER GUN LAWS DO NOT DECREASE GUN VIOLENCE.

WE CALL BS.

THEY SAY A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN STOP THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN, WE CALL BS.

>> I GOT MY MAKEUP ON AND SHE MAKES ME CRY EVERY TIME I SEE THAT.

ASTOUNDING.

>> THEY REALLY PUT THEMSELVES OUT THERE.

YOU DID THAT WHEN YOU ARE 15.

ONE OF YOUR FIRST ASK IF NOT THE FIRST WAS REFUSING TO SALUTE THE FLAG.

YOU WERE 15.

WHY WAS THAT?

>> MY FAMILY BECAME QUAKER WHEN I WAS ABOUT EIGHT.

IN QUAKERISM THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO PUT A HUMAN BEING BEFORE THE NATIONSTATE AND YOU DON'T GET TO KILL PEOPLE FOR ANY REASON.

LOOKING AROUND, THE MAIN REASON WE ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER IS WE HAVE PARTITIONED OURSELVES IN THESE NATIONSTATES.

AS A SYMBOL OF THAT I WOULDN'T SALUTE ANYBODY'S FLAG.

IT DIDN'T MATTER.

IN THE STATE IF YOU DON'T SALUTE THE FLAG THEY CAN'T BELIEVE IT.

I WAS IMMEDIATELY LABELED A COMMUNIST AND WHATEVER ELSE THEY COULD POSSIBLY SAY TO DENOUNCE ME.

>> YOU STAYED TRUE TO WHAT YOU BELIEVED IN DESPITE THE PREVAILING WIND, DESPITE GETTING KNOCKED AROUND FREQUENTLY.

HOW HARD IS IT GOING TO BE FOR THEM TO STAY FIRM ON THIS ISSUE OF ALL ISSUES IN TODAY'S CLIMATE OF ALL CLIMATES?

>> THE CLIMATE MAY HELP THEM STAY STRONG.

SURE, I WOULD WANT TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT WHEN THERE IS A DIP, WHEN YOU FEEL AS THOUGH IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK, WHEN YOU GET DISCOURAGED AND ALL OF THAT STUFF AND HOW TO TRY TO STAY ON TRACK.

THAT WILL HAPPEN.

HOW TO KEEP FROM INFIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER.

YOU SEE PEOPLE LEADING THIS RIGHT NOW, ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE PROBLEMS, YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR THAT.

FOR ME WHAT PREPARED IT WAS GANDHI AND NONVIOLENCE BECAUSE I WAS READY TO DEAL WITH WHATEVER CAME MY WAY AND NOT EXPECT EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO BE WONDERFUL.

>> IT'S EXTRAORDINARY I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SITTING HERE AND YOU ACTUALLY WERE AT THE 1963 MARCH ON WASHINGTON THERE WITH DR. KING AND ALL THE OTHERS WHO WERE THERE AND YOU SANG.

I BELIEVE YOU ARE WITH BOB DYLAN AT THAT TIME, YOU WENT TOGETHER.

DID YOU STEER HIM INTO ACTIVISM?

>> HE DID IT BECOME AN ACTIVIST.

HE WROTE THE SONGS AND I THINK HE HAD BEEN IN THE DEEP SOUTH A LITTLE BEFORE ALL OF THIS HAPPENED DOING SOME THINGS, BUT I THINK HE DIDN'T WANT TO DO -- BE PRESENT AND VISIBLE FOR THE MARCHES AND DEMONSTRATIONS.

HE WROTE OUR BACKGROUND MUSIC.

>> EVERYBODY ALWAYS WANTS TO TALK TO YOU AND ASK YOU AND FOCUS ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

IT SEEMED TO BE THE MOST PERFECT UNION IN TERMS OF VOICE BECAUSE IT ENDED UP NOT BEING RIGHT.

>> IT NEVER DOES.

ANYBODY YOU'RE THERE FOR A WHILE AND THEN THEY'RE GONE AND HOW DID IT WORK OUT?

I THINK RIGHT NOW, I THINK EACH OF US -- I DON'T SEE HIM, BUT I'VE HEARD HIM SAY LOVELY THINGS ABOUT ME AND I WILL CERTAINLY SAY LOVELY THINGS ABOUT HIM.

WHATEVER WENT WRONG DOESN'T MATTER.

>> WHAT WAS DR. KING -LIKE?

SO MANY WHO HAVE NEVER MET HIM TALK ABOUT HIM AS A DEMIGOD BUT YOU HAVE A MUCH MORE PERSONAL VIEW OF HIM AND YOU SAID HE ACTUALLY HAD A WICKED SENSE OF HUMOR AS WELL.

>> HE WAS VERY FUNNY AND HE KNEW HE COULDN'T AFFORD TO BE FUNNY ON CAMERA SO HE SAVED IT ALL FOR OFFSTAGE.

YEAH.

A LOT OF LAUGHTER, A LOT OF EATING SOUTHERN FOOD, A LOT OF HANGING OUT AND HE WOULD HAVE TO GET SERIOUS AGAIN AND GO PREACH.

>> WHAT YOU WANT TO TELL EVERYBODY WHEN YOU GO OUT ON YOUR FINAL TOUR?

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING TO GET AND GIVE?

>> I WILL SING AND TRY TO BRING BEAUTY TO THE WORLD THE BEST I CAN.

I WILL TELL PEOPLE THEY SHOULD HAPPILY CHOOSE DENIAL 80% OF THE TIME AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY WILL DO WITH THE 20% WHERE THEY CAN BE OF USE TO SOMEBODY, TO REINTRODUCE EMPATHY, COMPASSION, KINDNESS, INTELLIGENCE.

ALL THESE THINGS, TAKE THAT 20 OR 15% OF YOUR LIFE AND DO THAT ON ANY LEVEL.

WHEN A KID OR SOMEBODY SAYS WHAT CAN I DO, IT'S WHAT I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT TO DO BUT I SAY FOLLOW YOUR HEART.

ANY COMPASSIONATE NEWS IT'S GIVING YOU, LISTEN TO IT AND ACT UPON IT.

>> THAT'S A GOOD NOTE TO END ON.

JOAN BAEZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.