>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY .

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP -- >> HE PROMISED TO BE A DICTATOR ON DAY ONE, HE FULFILLED THAT PROMISE BY TRYING TO REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION.

>>> STARK WARNINGS ABOUT AUTOCRACY FROM FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE CZECH REPUBLIC NORMALIZING AN EXPERT PRINCETON PROFESSOR -- >>> I THINK HERO IS ORDINARY INDIVIDUAL THAT FINDS STRENGTH TO ENDURE IN SPITE OF OVERWHELMING ODDS.

>> SUPERMAN, THE CHRISTOPHER REEVE STORY, THE FIRST AUTHORIZED DOCUMENTARY THAT CHARTS THE ACTOR'S LIFE AND THE ACTOR THAT CHANGED IT.

I SPEAK TO THE DIRECTORS.

>>> AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST CHRIS HAYES TELLS US ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, THE SIREN'S CALL.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> LOOK INTO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DONALD TRUMP TESTING RESIDENTIAL PART OF THE LIMIT IN THE COUPLE OF WEEKS HE HAS BEEN BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH HAVE BECOME IMMEDIATE PUSHBACK AND WITH SOME SUCCESS.

BY WEDNESDAY, TWO DAYS AFTER ORDERING IT, THE WHITE HOUSE RESCINDED TRUMP'S PLAN TO FREEZE FEDERAL AID, ANOTHER JUDGE BLOCKED ANOTHER TRUMP ORDER TO END BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP.

THIS UNPRECEDENTED PARAGRAPH IS SHAPING UP INTO A SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL SHOWDOWN AND IT IS CHALLENGING THE STRENGTH OF THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS TO ACT AS CHECKS AND BALANCES.

IT IS THE KIND OF STRUGGLE MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, HAD OBSERVED CLOSELY OUTSIDE OF AMERICA.

AND NOW ARE ASKING WHETHER IS AMERICA "SLEEPWALKING" INTO AUTOCRACY.

NORM EISEN WAS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND SERVED AS COUNSEL TO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AND PRINCETON PROFESSOR CAM LANE SHIPLEY ROAD IS A RESEARCHER AT THE HUNGARIAN CONSTITUTIONAL COURT.

THEY ARE BOTH EXCEPTIONALLY WELL PLACED TO DISCUSS WHAT WE ARE FACED WITH RIGHT NOW.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, FIRST TO YOU, NORM, DO YOU BELIEVE, STILL , AFTER THE PUSHBACK THAT AMERICA IS SLEEPWALKING INTO AN AUTOCRACY, I KNOW THAT YOU THINK THE INSTITUTIONS WERE NOT READY TO COMBAT WHAT MIGHT BE ILLEGAL, DO YOU THINK THEY ARE READY TO COMBAT?

>> CHRISTIANE , WHEN WE READ THE NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED IN THE DAYS BEFORE DONALD TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, WE WERE CONCERNED ALL THE SIGNS THAT WE HAVE SEEN AROUND THE WORLD IN PLACES LIKE HUNGARY, TURKIYE, WHERE DICTATORSHIP, AUTOCRACY, AUTHORITARIANISM, IS CALMING.

WE ARE NOT BEING PAID ATTENTION TO IN AMERICA.

THERE WAS THIS STRANGE NUMBNESS ABROAD.

THIS WAS THE WEEK, AS YOU POINT OUT, THE ALARM WENT OFF.

LIKE MY ALARM CLOCK, WHICH HAS A SNOOZE BUTTON, TWO LOUD ALARMS THAT HAVE WOKEN PEOPLE UP, COURT ORDER, I WAS A PART OF THE LITIGATION SAYING THAT DONALD TRUMP'S ATTEMPT TO REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION, THERE IS NO BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP THAT WAS SLAPPED DOWN BY ONE OF THE GROUPS WHO GOT A TRO.

THIS WEEK, A SECOND ALARM BELL WITH THE COURTS SAYING, NO, DONALD TRUMP, YOU CAN'T FREEZE ALL FEDERAL SPENDING, YOU DON'T HAVE THAT POWER, THAT IS THE POWER OF CONGRESS.

I THINK THAT THESE ALARMS ARE STARTING TO WAKE UP AMERICA TO WHAT HAS BEEN, YOU CAN ONLY CALL IT A DICTATORIAL ONSLAUGHT OF DONALD TRUMP SUBSTITUTING HIS OWN VIEWS FOR THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS FIRST DAYS IN OFFICE.

>> YOU CALL IT DICTATORIAL, BEFORE I GET TO YOU, KIM, I WANT TO PRESS WITH NORM, YOU WERE COUNSEL TO THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE OR THE ETHICS COUNSELOR DURING THE TRUMP IMPEACHMENT PROCESS.

CLEARLY, YOU HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN ALL OF THIS.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THIS TIME AROUND, THE BODY POLITIC, THE CITIZENS, ET CETERA, ARE AS MOTIVATED AS THEY WERE FIRST TIME AROUND.

WHEN TRUMP GOT ELECTED, THERE SEEM TO BE, AS YOU COINED, THE BOTH OF YOU, AN ANTICIPATORY OBEDIENCE FROM ALL SEGMENTS OF CIVIL SOCIETY.

>> WILL CERTAINLY THE SECOND TIME AROUND, IT DID SEEM MANY OF THOSE, FOR EXAMPLE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, WHO CALLED HIM OUT PREVIOUSLY, WHERE ANTICIPATORY DAILY OBEYING, EVEN BEFORE HE DEMANDED OBEDIENCE, THEY WERE BENDING THE KNEE.

WE SAW THAT ACROSS MEDIA, BUSINESS.

THERE WAS A QUALITY OF SLEEPWALKING.

BUT I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE SEEING DONALD TRUMP CLAIMS THAT HE CAN REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION.

HE IS IGNORING CONGRESS, THE LAWS THAT CONGRESS HAS PASSED.

HE IS DEVASTATING THE LIVES OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND I THINK WITH THE SPENDING ORDER, FOLKS ARE WAKING UP.

I SHOULD TELL YOU THAT I'M NOT A VISCERAL NEVER TRUMPER, I ACTUALLY HELPED WITH HIS FIRST PRESIDENTIAL TRANSITION ON THOSE SAME ETHICS ISSUES THAT ARE MY SPECIALTY.

I THINK YOU CAN ONLY SAY, HE PROMISED TO BE A DICTATOR ON DAY ONE, HE FULFILLED THAT PROMISE BY TRYING TO REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION.

HE HAS CONTINUED, CHRISTIANE , YOU KNOW THIS IS SOMETHING THAT FOLLOWS THESE ISSUES AROUND THE WORLD, DICTATORIAL POWER, ONCE ASSUMED, ARE SELDOM VOLUNTARILY RELINQUISHED.

DONALD TRUMP HAS CONTINUED THAT DAY ONE ATTITUDE DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY.

>> NOW I WANT TO TURN TO KIM, NORM WAS AMBASSADOR TO THE CZECH REPUBLIC, KIM, YOU SPENT A LONG TIME STUDYING MESS, INCLUDING LONG TIME STUDYING HUNGARY'S CONSTITUTIONAL COURT IN HUNGARY SET UP AS THE PRIME EXAMPLE OF DEMOCRACY TURNING INTO A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY USING THE LAW.

THIS IS WHAT YOU BOTH RIGHT, AUTOCRACY IS NOT BUILT OUT OF THE WINDS OF A LEADER BUT BECOMES ENTRENCHED ONLY WHEN IT HAS BEEN CERTIFIED BY LEGALISM, EXPLOITING LEGAL MEANS TO SERVE AUTOCRATIC ENDS.

KIM, EXPLAIN, IF YOU CAN IN A CONCISE WAY, WHAT HUNGARY DID, WHAT -- DID .

>> VIKTOR ORBAN DID EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE DONALD TRUMP DOING, HE CAME INTO POWER WITH THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF LAWS THAT HAD BEEN WRITTEN BY PRIVATE ACTORS OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM BEFORE HE ASSUMED POWER.

WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE, HE BEGAN SHOVELING THESE LAWS THROUGH HIS COMPLIANT PARLIAMENT AND THE MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE ENACTING.

BY THE TIME, I THINK THAT EVERYONE FIGURED IT OUT, THREE YEARS INTO ORBAN'S REGIME, HE CAPTURED VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS.

HE HAD ALSO REWRITTEN THE ELECTION LAW, THERE WAS NO WAY ANY OPPOSITION FORCE HAD THE TOEHOLD, THE RESOURCES, OR THE ORGANIZATION TO ACTUALLY EVER OUST HIM FROM POWER.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IN THE U.S. IS EXACTLY THIS KIND OF THING.

WHAT I MUST SAY THAT IS INTERESTING, PEOPLE STILL THINK THAT YOU LOSE DEMOCRACIES WITH TANKS IN STREETS.

WHAT I KEEP SAYING IS, NO, YOU LOSE YOUR DEMOCRACY WHEN YOU HAVE LAWYERS TRYING TO UNDERMINE IT BY LAW.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM THAT NORM IDENTIFIED, YOU CANNOT REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION IN AMERICA WITH EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

NONETHELESS, ALL OF THIS HAS TO GET LITIGATED.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, UNLESS YOU GET ONE OF THE ORDERS WE HAVE SEEN ALREADY, THEY STOP EVERYTHING IN ITS TRACKS, THE AUTOCRATS DON'T ACTUALLY CARE WHETHER THEY WIN THE LEGAL BATTLES IN THE END, THEY CARE ABOUT WHETHER THEY WIN FACTS ON THE GROUND AND THE LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES TO LITIGATE OFTEN TIMES MEAN THEY CAPTURE FACTS ON THE GROUND BEFORE THE LAW MAKES THEM STOP.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

I'M TELLING YOU, I HATE GOING BACK TO THE NAZI ERA, I DON'T WANT TO BRING UP HITLER, IT TURNS A WHOLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE OFF.

I CANNOT BEAST TRUCK BY WHAT JOSEPH GOEBBELS SAID AFTER THEY SEIZED POWER, SEIZING POWER FROM A DEMOCRACY, THE BIG JOKE ON DEMOCRACY IS IT GIVES ITS MORTAL ENEMIES THE MEANS TO ITS OWN DESTRUCTION.

KIM, YOU SAW THAT FIRST HAND IN HUNGARY.

>> ABSOLUTELY, EXACTLY.

HUNGARY, TURKIYE, EVEN RUSSIA.

THIS IS HOW IT HAPPENS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

VENEZUELA AND ECUADOR, THE LEADERS THERE REWROTE THE CONSTITUTIONS IN THEIR FIRST YEAR.

ORBAN DID THAT TOO.

WE HAVE THIS IDEA, HOW DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION, A LEADER GETS ELECTED AND THEY CHANGE THE LAW SO WHEN THE LEADER GETS ELECTED AND CHANGES THE LAW, MANY PEOPLE STAND AROUND AND SAY, GEE, I KIND OF DISAGREE WITH THIS LEADER BUT THAT IS HOW DEMOCRACIES WORK.

WHAT THEY NEED TO SEE, IT IS NOT JUST ANY LAW THAT THESE NEW AUTOCRATS ARE PASSING, IT IS LAWS THAT ACTUALLY REMOVE RESTRAINTS ON THE EXECUTIVE.

THAT IS THE DANGER SIGNAL THAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IN THE UNITED STATES.

TRUMP IS CLAIMING THE POWER TO STOP ALL FEDERAL FUNDING.

DOES HE HAVE THAT POWER BY LAW?

NO.

SOMEONE HAS TO TELL HIM NO AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER CONGRESS RISES TO THE CHALLENGE, WHETHER THE COURTS RISE TO THE CHALLENGE.

FRANKLY, THE THING THAT I'M ALARMED ABOUT IN THE UNITED STATES, UNLIKE TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, WE ARE NOT SEEING PEOPLE GO TO THE STREETS, WE ARE NOT SEEING A REALLY MOBILIZED CONSTITUENCY IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC THAT IS GOING TO LET THAT INSTITUTIONS KNOW THAT THE PUBLIC SEES WHAT IS HAPPENING.

THAT IS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE FOCUSED LEADERSHIP RIGHT NOW THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN HUNGARY, EVERYBODY OBJECTED, PEOPLE DID NOT GO TO THE STREET AND WITHIN THREE YEARS, THERE DEMOCRACY WAS OVER .

>> YOU SAID THAT IT WAS ONE OF THE QUICKEST COLLAPSES OF DEMOCRACY IN RECORDED HISTORY.

NORM, I WANT TO ASK YOU, ORBAN MADE THREE TRIPS, NOT ONE BUT THREE TO MAR-A-LAGO AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THE YEAR LEADING UP TO HIS ELECTION.

ALSO PROJECT 2025, A VISION SIMILAR, 180 DAY, TRYING TO THROW OUT AND SHIFT AND CHANGE THE U.S.

CONSTITUTIONAL, LEGAL, LEGISLATIVE PRECEDENTS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT STEPS?

AS KIM SAID AND OTHERS TOLD US, EVEN RESCINDING THE OMB THING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY HAVE RELINQUISHED IT.

>> I THINK THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE THIS FURIOUS ASSAULT ON THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS BY EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND EXECUTIVE POWER.

THERE HAS ALSO BEEN THE WRONGFUL FIRING OF HUNDREDS AND IMPACTS ON THOUSANDS OF FEDERAL CIVIL SERVANTS WHERE TRUMP IS TRYING TO OUST THOSE INDIVIDUALS, WRONGLY.

AND REPLACE THEM WITH THOSE WHO WILL EXECUTE HIS PROGRAM OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

LOOK FOR THE COURT PUSHBACK THOUGH.

I THINK, CHRISTIANE , THE STORY OF THE FIRST DAYS OF TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION IS, HE IS PUSHING TO DO WHAT ORBAN AND OTHERS HAVE TRIED BUT THERE HAS BEEN COURT PUSHBACK'S.

COURTS ARE STOPPING HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE LITIGATION FROM THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN WRONGLY FIRED OR DEMOTED, MORE COURT PUSHBACK ON HIM.

AND WHILE WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE MASS POPULAR MOBILIZATION THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO THE FACT THAT POLAND WAS EVENTUALLY ABLE TO OUST THEIR AUTOCRAT, WHERE'S HUNGARY, TURKIYE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO.

I THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THAT IS THE NEXT PART OF WAKING UP, HEY, THIS GUY TRIED TO CUT OFF ALL OF THE SERVICES WE RELY ON FROM GOVERNMENT.

HE IS GOING TO AFFECT US, WORKING MOMS, KIDS IN SCHOOL, FIREFIGHTERS, POLICE, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.

I'M LOOKING BOTH FOR HIM TO KEEP PUSHING BUT FOR THE LEADERS AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO WAKE UP.

WE SAW STRONG CONGRESSIONAL PUSHBACK, THAT IS THE STORY, WE ARE AT A CROSSROADS.

I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN OUR INSTITUTIONS AND OUR PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT THEY WILL WAKE UP AND SEE THAT SAME MASS POPULAR MOBILIZATION, THE SAME AS MR. NETANYAHU IN ISRAEL, WHEN HE TRIED TO PASS HIS AUTOCRATIC LAWS, THE COUNTRY TURNED OUT IN THE STREETS.

I THINK THAT THE SAME WILL HAPPEN HERE AS WELL, NOT JUST AT THE GRASS TOPS, THE GRASSROOTS .

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

I WANT TO ASK YOU QUICKLY BEFORE FINISHING WITH KIM, YOU TALKED ABOUT POLAND PUSHING BACK, ALSO BRAZIL, SONARA WAS CONSIDERED THE TRUMP OF THE TROPICS.

NOW, WITH BOLSONARO OUT OF OFFICE, IT APPEARS INSTITUTIONS ARE WINNING.

THEY WON AGAINST MUSK, WHO TRIED TO CHALLENGE THE JUDICIARY.

THEY WON IN VARIOUS WAYS.

I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO RECLAIM DEMOCRACY ONCE IT HAS BEEN DAMAGED?

>> IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS CAN LEARN A THING OR TWO FROM BRAZIL.

UNLIKE THE APPROACH WE TOOK, WHICH DID LEAD TO 34 CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS OF DONALD TRUMP IN ONE OF THE CRIMINAL CASES AGAINST HIM, THE BRAZILIAN INSTITUTIONS HAVE HELD STRONG.

PARTICULARLY THE BRAZILIAN COURTS HAVE BEEN TOUGH, CUTTING EDGE OF THEIR RULE OF LAW SYSTEM.

WE CAN LEARN A THING OR TWO FROM BRAZIL.

POLAND TEACHES US AFTER EIGHT YEARS, THEY OUSTED THE AUTOCRATS BUT HAVE DONE SO MUCH DAMAGE, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE SUCCESSORS TO SUCCEED.

CHRISTIANE , THAT IS WHY I'M SO GLAD AND PART OF THE LITIGATION EFFORTS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, I'M SO GLAD TO SEE THE COURTS PUSHING BACK EARLY AND SAYING, NO, DONALD TRUMP, YOU CAN'T DO THIS.

THAT IS WAKING UP THE LEADERS AND WAKING UP THE COUNTRY.

I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE HAVE A VERY, VERY TOUGH ROAD AHEAD TO PRESERVE THESE INSTITUTIONS.

THEY MUST NOT BE HOLLOWED OUT BECAUSE IF THEY ARE, WE WILL NOT GET THEM BACK.

>> REALITY CHECK, SIMILAR THING HAPPEN IN THE SO-CALLED MUSLIM BAN WHEN THE COURT STOPPED IT BUT THEY ACHIEVED IT, THE ADMINISTRATION, BY OTHER MEANS.

THEY WENT BACK AND TRIED AGAIN AND PARTS OF IT SURVIVED.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, KIM, THERE IS A MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN BY DONALD TRUMP AND MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN BY ORBAN AND -- AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE.

ORBAN AND --, THE EXTREME FAR RIGHT PARTY LEADER IN FRANCE, IN MADRID NEXT WEEK, MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN.

ORBAN SAID THAT TRUMP'S VICTORY WILL ENCOURAGE AND SET EUROPE ON A SIMILAR PATH.

WE KNOW THAT EUROPE IS ALREADY THERE IN MANY REGARDS, ANTI- IMMIGRANT SITUATION, MORE PROTECTION US ABOUT TRADE AND ALL THOSE CONCERNS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, HAVING STUDIED EUROPE SO MUCH, KIM?

WHAT WILL BE THE TREND IN EUROPE?

>> YES, I THINK WE SAW IN THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS LAST JUNE THAT THE FAR RIGHT IS ON THE RISE AND RIGHT NOW, VIKTOR ORBAN COBBLED TOGETHER AFTER THAT ELECTION THE THIRD-LARGEST PARTY IN THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

WHAT YOU SEE ARE THE EUROPEAN INSTITUTIONS TILTING RIGHTWARD AND MS. -- AT THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION RELYING MORE ON THE FAR RIGHT TO BACK HER IN SOME AREAS OF POLICY.

AT ANY LEVEL WE DON'T HAVE THE PUSHBACK AGAINST NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS THAT WE HAD, HOWEVER MINIMALLY, WHEN HUNGARY AND POLAND WERE GOING DOWN THE AUTOCRATIC PAST.

THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM WHEN YOU SEE THAT NATIONALIST GOVERNMENT ON THE RISE IN MANY COUNTRIES, INCLUDING THE COUNTRIES IN EUROPE, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF DYNAMIC.

AND THE EU HAS BEEN GOING ALONG TO GET ALONG BECAUSE THEY SEE THAT THESE RIGHT WING PARTIES HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF POWER AT EU LEVEL AS WELL.

LET ME SAY THAT VIKTOR ORBAN, HE IS THE PRIME MINISTER OF A TINY COUNTRY.

YOU THINK THAT MAYBE HUNGARY WILL NOT HAVE THAT MUCH POWER.

ORBAN INVESTED A HUGE AMOUNT OF HUNGARIAN RESOURCES CREATING A SERIES OF THINK TANKS AND A BUNCH OF OUTREACH, BOTH IN STAT INSTITUTE WAS ONE OF THE PARTNERS WRITING PROJECT 2025 HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

ORBAN ALSO HAS A FRENCH LANGUAGE THING TANK, GERMAN LANGUAGE THINK TANK, THAT HAS BEEN WORKING WITH FAR RIGHT LEADERS IN EUROPE, NOT ONLY TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY COME TO POWER IN ELECTIONS, ALSO TO DESIGN THESE PLANS THAT IF THESE LEADERS ARE ELECTED AND HIT THE GROUND RUNNING, THEY WILL HAVE LOTS AND LOTS OF LAWS TO BLITZ EVERYONE WITH ON DAY ONE.

THAT IS ORBAN'S STRATEGY AND HE HAS AN INFRASTRUCTURE FOR HELPING OTHER COUNTRIES DO IT AND WE ARE SEEING THAT PLAYBOOK PLAYING OUT IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO HEAR THESE MORNINGS AND HOW YOU TRACKED IT FROM ABROAD.

I WANT TO ASK FINALLY, YOU MENTIONED A BIG COUNTRY, NORM, HOW DANGEROUS IS IT AN UNELECTED LEADER OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, SO TO SPEAK, TRUMP'S WING MAN, ELON MUSK, SAYS TO GERMANY, A BIG COUNTRY WITH A MAJOR HISTORY IN THIS REGARD, ONLY THE FAR RIGHT AFD CAN SAVE GERMANY NOW APPEARS IN A VIDEO LINK AT ONE OF THEIR RALLIES.

>> IT IS PROFOUNDLY CONCERNING, CHRISTIANE .

YOU SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT THE OMINOUS ECHOES OF HISTORY.

THEY ARE NOWHERE LOUDER THAN IN GERMANY.

ELON MUSK HAS BEEN A PRIME PURVEYOR OF DISINFORMATION THERE, IN THE UNITED STATES, HE IS DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR IN THE UK.

THAT IS PART OF THE REASON WE NEED TO BE EXTREMELY ALERT AND IN FACT, I FILED WITH PARTNERS, THE VERY FIRST LAWSUIT OF ANY KIND AGAINST THIS NEW TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE OF ALLEGED ILLEGALITIES AT MUSK'S UNITED STATES DOES -- D.O.

SHOULD SERVE AS, THAT SEEMS TO BE INVOLVED IN MANY OF THESE LEGALLY QUESTIONABLE ACTIVITIES.

YOU CAN'T BRING OVER FROM WHAT WORKS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR INTO OUR RULE OF LAW SYSTEM, WHERE DIFFERENT SET OF RULES APPLY, LIKE WITH HAVING TO FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION OR YOU CAN'T CUT OR STOP ALL FEDERAL SPENDING.

WE SHOULD BE VERY, VERY ALERT, AWARE, AND WHERE APPROPRIATE, TAKE LEGAL ACTION REGARDING THE ACTIONS OF MR. MUSK.

>> THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TO START HAVING.

NORM EISEN AND KIM LANE SCHEPPELE, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> UP NEXT, AMERICAN TALE OF SKY HIGHS, DEVASTATING LOWS, UNSHAKABLE RESILIENCE.

IT IS THE REAL-LIFE STORY OF CHRISTOPHER REEVE, THE ACTOR THAT BECAME A GLOBAL ICON PLAYING SUPERMAN AND BEING A HERO AFTER HIS TRAGIC RIDING ACCIDENT LEFT HIM PARALYZED.

20 YEARS AFTER HE IS DEAD, NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED SUPERMAN, THE CHRISTOPHER REEVE STORY, GETS BEHIND THE SCENES OF HIS REMARKABLE LIFE AND TRANSFORMATION FROM MOVIE STAR TO ACTIVISTS.

THE FILM IS NOMINATED CLUB AFTER IN THE UK AND THE FILMMAKERS AND BERNARD AND PETER -- CAME INTO THE STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT MAKING THIS FIRST-EVER AUTHORIZED FAMILY MOVIE.

PETER, IAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I FIRST ASK YOU, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE CHRISTOPHER REEVE AS THE SUBJECT OF THIS DOCUMENTARY ?

>> I WISH WE HAD BEEN INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO CHOOSE IT OURSELVES.

IT CAME TO US BY PRODUCER THAT HAD CONTACTED MATTHEW -- >> MATTHEW BEING HIS OLDEST SON .

>> EXACTLY, ASKED ME IF THERE WOULD BE INTEREST IN PERSONAL ARCHIVES GIVEN TO THE FILM.

THE FAMILY HAD BEEN APPROACHED A NUMBER OF TIMES, PARTICULARLY TO DO PICTIONARY VERSIONS OF CHRISTOPHER'S LIFE AND THEY ALWAYS SAID, NO.

THIS IS THE RIGHT TIME FOR THE FAMILY, THEY JUST SAW -- AT NEW YORK, THEY FOUND ALL OF THESE BOXES OF THEIR PARENTS' ARCHIVES AND NOW IS THE RIGHT TIME COMING UP ON THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF CHRISTOPHER'S PASSING THAT IS HOW THE BALL GOT ROLLING.

WE WERE INTRODUCED TO THE REEVES AND IT WAS A NO-BRAINER AS A SUBJECT FOR A FUTURE FILM, FUTURE DOCUMENTARY.

WE BOTH KNEW QUITE A LOT ABOUT HIS LIFE AND ADORED, I PARTICULARLY GREW UP WITH HIS SUPERMAN WHEN I WAS A LITTLE BIT YOUNGER.

AND YEAH, WE THOUGHT THIS WAS -- >> YOU WERE YOUNGER, MAYBE NOT A SUPERMAN FAN, MAYBE WERE, WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT SUPERMAN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE IS KNOWN FOR?

>> IT IS HARD TO TURN DOWN TO TELL THE STORY OF SUPERMAN AND BEHIND THE SCENE OF SUPERMAN.

CHRISTOPHER'S STORY, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE ACCIDENT, IS A BIT LESS KNOWN FOR THE PEOPLE BUT NO LESS EXTRAORDINARY.

THAT INTEREST WAS TO PLAY THE IMAGERY AND THE FACT THAT AUDIENCES RECOGNIZE AND REMEMBER SUPERMAN AND WHAT HE MEANT FOR THE GENERAL CONSCIOUSNESS.

AT THE SAME TIME, TO LOOK AT THE DISABILITY ACTIVISM AND ALL OF THE WORK HE HAS DONE AND WHEN WE MET THE FAMILY, WE DISCOVERED THIS EXTREMELY STRONG FAMILY FROM HIS FIRST PARTNER, DANA REEVE, HIS WIFE, HAD THE THREE CHILDREN, THAT FELT VERY HUMAN AND INTERNATIONAL STORY.

>> I THOUGHT THAT FAMILY WAS OBVIOUSLY A DOMINANT THEME THROUGH THE MOVIE, EVEN WHEN HE WAS A YOUNG STRUGGLING ACTOR, HE KEPT TRYING TO PLEASE HIS FATHER, THEY COME FROM UPPER MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY, TELL ME WHAT WE LEARN ABOUT HIS FATHER, WHEN HE LEARNS THAT HE IS SUPERMAN, HE HAS BEEN CAST AS SUPERMAN .

>> HIS FATHER, WHO WAS AN ACADEMIC POET, IMMEDIATELY ASSUMED THAT CHRISTOPHER WAS TALKING ABOUT GEORGE BERNARD SHAW'S SUPERMAN, NOT AS MATTHEW SAYS IN THE FILM, THE COMIC BOOK ICON.

THAT WAS VERY TYPICAL.

>> AND HE GOT IRRITATED .

>> HE GOT IRRITATED, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

AND KIND OF DISAPPROVING OF THAT AMERICAN POPULAR CULTURE, DETERMINED TO EMBRACE FULLY TELLING THE STORY.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, IT IS AN INTERESTING STORY ABOUT THREE GENERATIONS OF A FAMILY.

YOU HAVE THE FATHER AND THE SON, THE SON TRYING TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES AS FATHER MAKE.

LITTLE CONTACT, BAD CONTACT WITH THE KIDS, TIME NOT TO REPEAT THOSE MISTAKES AND LEARNING THROUGH HIS STORY, HIS OWN ADVERSITY.

>> OF COURSE, HE WAS NOT A GREAT FATHER BY HIS OWN ADMISSION AND KIDS' ADMISSION DURING EARLY BITS OF THE INTERVIEW THAN HE DOES BECOME THE FAMILY, THE FAMILY ALL GET TOGETHER.

BEFORE THAT, HIS OWN FATHER AS WE JUST SAID, DID NOT PARTICULARLY APPROVE OF HIM BEING THE COMIC MAN VERSUS GEORGE BERNARD SHARP, NOR DID HIS COSTARS IN THE PLAY HE WAS IN BEFORE HE GOT FAMOUS, FAMOUSLY WILLIAM HURT AND JEFF DANIELS, HE GOT A CALL TO GO TO LONDON TO AUDITION FOR WHAT, SUPERMAN?

>> THE IDEA CAME RATHER THAN CASTING A WOMAN SUPERMAN, WE SHOULD CALL FOR AN UNKNOWN AND HAVE STARS AROUND HIM.

>> WE HAD MADE A COSTUME OUT OF A LITTLE LEOTARD AND CHRIS WAS SWEATING LIKE A STUCK PIG, I TOOK BLACK SHOE POLISH AND BLACKED HIS WHOLE HEAD, THE SKINNY LITTLE KID DID A SCENE WITH VARIOUS LADIES WHO WERE UP FOR THE PART OF LOIS LANE.

>> I'M HERE TO FIGHT FOR TRUTH, FOR JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY.

>> HE FLEW SUNDAY NIGHT SCREEN TESTED IN LONDON ON MONDAY AND FLEW BACK MONDAY NIGHT.

HOW DID A ?

CHRIS SAID, I GOT IT.

>> THE REST WAS HISTORY.

WHAT CHANGED WITH CHRISTOPHER REEVE ONCE HE GOT THAT ROLE WENT FROM UNKNOWN TO STRATOSPHERE, LITERALLY.

>> COMPLETELY.

THERE ARE TWO THINGS EXTREMELY INTERESTING, HE TOOK ON THE ROLE OF SUPERHERO, I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK BACK NOW, SUPERHERO AT PRESENT ON BIG SCREENS ACROSS THE WORLD.

AT THE TIME, IT WAS THE FIRST ONE TO BE ADAPTED TO CINEMA, THAT WAS VERY NEW FOR AUDIENCES.

PEOPLE NOT ONLY FELL IN LOVE WITH THE ACTORS, GOOD LOOKING AND INTELLIGENT PERSON, ON TOP OF IT, PRESENTED AFFECTION, JUSTICE, THE AMERICAN WAY, ET CETERA.

ALL OF THOSE ELEMENTS MADE IT A SPECIAL PERSON IN PEOPLE'S MIND.

24 YEARS OLD, 23 OR 24 YEARS OLD, SUDDENLY MAKING QUITE A LOT OF MONEY, THE FILM ALMOST MADE HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN THE BOX OFFICE.

>> AT THAT TIME.

SPEED AT THAT TIME.

I THINK THAT THAT SORT OF NUMBERS, YOU SUDDENLY CRASHED ALL OF THE FAMOUS PEOPLE'S PARTY, TAKING PICTURES FROM ANDY WARHOL, ET CETERA.

A LOT OF THE ESPYS, THE SERIOUS ACTORS THAT HE SOLD OUT.

HE ALWAYS HAD THAT FIGHT EMBRACING COMMERCIAL SUCCESS AND WHAT HE BROUGHT, NOT ONLY FINAL TRACEABILITY BUT MORE CHOICES AND OPPORTUNITIES BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU ALWAYS CHASE THE ROLE THAT WOULD CONFIRM HE WAS A GREAT ACTOR.

JEFF DANIELS SAYS IT VERY WELL IN THE FILM, CONSTANTLY WANTED TO FIND OUT IF HE WAS A GREAT ACTOR BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT HE FOUND OUT.

>> BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE.

IT WAS A NOT A LONG PERIOD OF SUPERSTARDOM HE HAD BEFORE HE HAD THAT TERRIBLE, LIFE- CHANGING, NEARLY FATAL HORSE RIDING ACCIDENT AND HE BECAME A QUADRIPLEGIC.

HE WAS COMPLETELY PARALYZED EXCEPT FOR HIS HEAD, ET CETERA.

HE WAS ON A VENTILATOR AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

HOW DID HE REACT TO THAT?

>> INITIALLY HE WAS IN DESPAIR.

HE WAS FEELING THAT THE LIFE SUPPORT SHOULD BE SWITCHED OFF, THAT WAS HIS INITIAL REACTION.

AT FIRST, IT WAS DANA THAT GAVE HIM THE COURAGE TO CONTINUE.

YOU ARE STILL YOU AND I LOVE YOU.

THAT IS THE MOST PIVOTAL MOMENT IN OUR FILM AND THE STORY.

FROM THAT MOMENT ON, HE REALIZED THAT LIFE WOULD BE MUCH MORE ABOUT REALLY BEING WHO HE WAS RATHER THAN TRYING TO BE SUPERMAN OR PLAY OTHER ROLES.

>> THAT IS VERY POIGNANT.

THERE IS A SCENE WHERE ALL OF THAT TAKES PLACE.

THAT IS WHEN YOU SEE HIM GETTING A WHOLE SECOND CHANCE AT LIFE AND THE LIFE BECAME THE ACTIVIST FOR THOSE WITH SIMILAR DISABILITIES.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF HIM, I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF HIM AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION OF CLINTON IN 1996.

HERE IT IS.

>> AMERICA DOES NOT LET ITS NEEDY CITIZENS FEND FOR THEMSELVES.

>> I WONDER WHAT, THIS IS SORT OF AN ASIDE, MIKE HE HAVE THOUGHT NOW, WHILE THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IS ESSENTIALLY FREEZING ALL SORTS OF RESEARCH AND MEDICALS STUDY AND THE REST, PENDING REVIEW OF WHO KNOWS WHAT, I WONDER WHAT HE MIGHT'VE THOUGHT OF THAT, DID YOU EVER THINK OF THAT?

WAS NOT SPEND TOO MUCH TIME IN DESPAIR OR INACTION.

HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN ACTION RIGHT NOW AND BEEN DEMONSTRATING, OUT THERE TALKING TO PEOPLE.

HE THOUGHT WE WERE STRONGER TOGETHER.

>> HELP IS ON THE WAY.

>> THAT IS SOMETHING HE FELT THAT THE FILM REALLY EXPLORED THE FACT THAT HE TRIED TO GALVANIZE THE SCIENCE WORLD AND DISABILITY IN GENERAL WAS ALWAYS A WORLD THAT PEOPLE TRIED NOT TO LOOK INTO.

BREAKING YOUR BACK AND PARALYSIS WAS ONE OF THE SCIENTIFIC WORLD WHICH WAS HARD TO EXPLORE, WHY HE WANTED PEOPLE, HE WANTED THE MONEY AND ALL OF THE GREATEST MINDS OUT THERE TO BE GALVANIZED TO DO MORE RESEARCH.

I REALLY TRULY BELIEVE EVEN IN SOME OF THE POTENTIAL ISSUES RIGHT NOW AND THE CONFLICT AND DISAGREEMENT WITH PEOPLE, YOU WOULD'VE BEEN A BRIDGE BETWEEN PEOPLE AND TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO TALK.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE WOULD'VE TALKED, I DON'T THINK COMPLETELY EMBRACED SOME OF THE DECISION HE MADE, LET ALONE THE DECISION ABOUT IDENTITY AND GENDER AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

BECAUSE HE WAS A VERY OPEN- MINDED PERSON.

I THINK THAT HE WOULD NOT OF LOCKED HIMSELF TRYING TO CARRY ON THE CONVERSATION.

>> THAT IS WHY I WANT TO BRING THE SOUND BITE OF HIS OWN, OBVIOUSLY AFTER HE WAS PARALYZED, ABOUT WHAT IT MEANT TO TALKING ABOUT BEING A HERO AND SUPERHERO.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS, HOW HE CHANGED HIS VIEWS ABOUT WHAT HEROISM WAS ALL ABOUT.

>> WHEN THE FIRST SUPERMAN MOVIE CAME OUT, THE MOST FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTION WAS, WHAT IS A HERO?

MY ANSWER WAS, A HERO IS SOMEONE THAT COMMITS A COURAGEOUS ACTION WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE CONSEQUENCES.

NOW MIGHT DEFINITION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

I THINK THAT A HERO IS AN ORDINARY INDIVIDUAL THAT FINDS THE STRENGTH TO PERSEVERE AND ENDURE IN SPITE OF OVERWHELMING OBSTACLES.

>> AGAIN, IT MIGHT SEEM LIKE A NORMAL OBSERVATION NOW BUT BACK THEN AND FROM HIM, THAT WAS PRETTY INCREDIBLE OBSERVATION THAT HE WAS ENDURING, CARRYING ON, WE SEE IN THE FILM ALL OF THE DIFFICULTIES AND FEARS, HIS BREATHING APPARATUS MIGHT BREAK OR FALL OFF, HIS CHILDREN WERE WORRIED WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HE WAS ALONE AND THERE WAS ELECTRICITY BLOCKAGE OR WHATEVER AND HE WOULD DIE WITHOUT ANYBODY KNOWING.

BUT I THINK ALSO, WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT HIS WIFE, DANA, DANA REEVE, WHO REALLY WAS HEROIC.

SHE WAS INCREDIBLE THE WAY SHE STUCK WITH HIM.

THEN YOU DELIVER GUT PUNCH TOWARD THE END OF THE FILM.

TELL US WHAT HAPPENS TO DANA .

>> SHE IS DIAGNOSED WITH LUNG CANCER HAVING NEVER SMOKED IN HER LIFE.

YOU KNOW, IT IS AWFUL TO SAY IT, WHAT WILL SAYS IN THE FILM, DANA AND CHRIS' SON, SAYS, SOMETHING IN HERSELF DIED WHEN CHRISTOPHER DIED.

HONESTLY, I THINK SHE HAD GIVEN SO MUCH TO CHRISTOPHER AND CARING FOR HIM AND THE FAMILY, I THINK SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY WRECKED AFTER HE DIED SO YES, SHE DIES, PASSES AWAY 18 MONTHS LATER LEAVING WILL -- >> HE IS 13 YEARS OLD.

>> WE HAVE TO SAY CORRESPOND AT ABC NEWS.

>> YEAH, AND HAS CAMEO ROLE IN THE NEW -- FILM AS WELL.

SPEDE HEAT IS, INTERESTING.

ALL OF THE OTHER SIBLINGS IN CHARGE OF THE CHRISTOPHER AND DANA REEVE FOUNDATION, THE LEGACY CONTINUES IN TERMS OF FIGHTING FOR THEIR RESEARCH AND RESOURCES FOR PEOPLE.

ONE THING I THOUGHT YOU EXPLORED VERY SENSITIVELY WAS THE IDEA OF MALE FRIENDSHIP AND THE SOLID RELATIONSHIP, THEY CALL EACH OTHER BROTHERS BETWEEN HIMSELF AND ROBIN WILLIAMS.

YOU TALK TO OTHER STARS, GLENN CLOSE VERY MOVINGLY, WHOOPI GOLDBERG, SUSAN SARANDON, ALL OF THEM HAD ACTED WITH HIM AND BECOME FRIENDS.

I WAS STRUCK BY EVERYTHING ROBIN WILLIAMS DID FOR HIM, INCLUDING BUYING A MASSIVE GENERATOR TO MAKE SURE IF THERE WAS EVER ELECTRICITY CUT, IT WOULD NOT AFFECT THE POWER TO HIS TECHNICAL TREATMENT.

GLENN SAID, SHE WAS SURE ROBIN WILLIAMS WOULD BE ALIVE OF CHRISTOPHER REEVE WAS STILL ALIVE .

>> IT IS A BIT OF A SHOCK BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW.

WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT GLENN KNEW THEM BOTH VERY WELL AND VERY CLOSE TO BOTH OF THEM.

SHE WOULD'VE SEEN THE STRUGGLES, ONE PHYSICAL AND IN ROBIN'S CASE, MENTAL STRUGGLE.

THEY WERE FAMILY.

WE DON'T ALWAYS CHOOSE OUR FAMILY BUT IN THAT CASE, THEY WERE REALLY LIKE BROTHERS.

I THINK WE WANTED TO SHOW HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO COUNT ON YOUR FRIENDS.

WHEN YOU'RE IN A CERTAIN, THAT LEVEL OF DISABILITY, THAT LEVEL INJURY CHRIS HAD, NOT ONLY HIS SALARY WAS DECENT, HE MADE SOME MONEY BUT THE MONEY RAN OUT REAL FAST INSURANCE RAN OUT REALLY FAST.

THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS HE FOUGHT TO RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT .

HE HAD SOME OF HIS SUCCESSFUL AND WEALTHY FRIENDS STILL BEING ABLE TO STEP IN TO HELP.

WE WANTED TO HONOR THAT .

>> FINALLY, 20 YEARS, CHRISTOPHER REEVE WOULD HAVE BEEN 72 YEARS OLD NOW.

WHAT DO YOU WANT THE LEGACY OF THIS FILM TO BE?

>> WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, WE HAVE SCREENED IT OVER THE PAST YEAR STARTING AT SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL.

A RESPONSE, FIRST OF ALL, THE EMOTIONAL RESPONSE THAT PEOPLE FEEL.

YOU SENSE A REAL CONNECTION WITH PEOPLE COMING OUT OF THIS FILM BETWEEN EACH OTHER, THEY HAVE JUST BEEN THROUGH EXTRAORDINARILY TRAGIC BUT ALSO UPLIFTING JOURNEY.

I THINK THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT, WE BELIEVE IN DOCUMENTARIES IN CINEMA AND HAVE THE GREAT LUCK THROUGH THE WARNER BROS. TO HAVE A GLOBAL CINEMA RELEASE AND THAT IS FANTASTIC.

I THINK, ALSO, WHAT CHRISTOPHER'S STORY REPRESENTS, THIS IDEA THAT WE ARE ALL CONNECTED AND WE DON'T LET THE NEEDY FEND FOR THEMSELVES, THAT WE SHOW COMPASSION TO OUR FAMILY, TO OUR NEIGHBORS, TO PEOPLE WHO NEED OUR HELP.

CHRISTOPHER'S STORY REALLY REPRESENTS THAT.

THE OTHER THING, LIKE WHAT YOU SAID, QUADRIPLEGIC AND ON EVENT , THAT TYPE OF FIGURE WITH THAT LEVEL OF INJURY IS VERY RARELY SEEN IN THE PUBLIC.

CHRISTOPHER'S MISSION WAS TO PUT HIMSELF OUT THERE, NOT TO BE A STAR AGAIN BUT BECAUSE HE WANTED TO SHOW PEOPLE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE, EVEN SUPERMAN.

I THINK THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF HIS LEGACY.

>> PETER, IAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

"SUPER/MAN: THE CHRISTOPHER REEVE STORY" AIR SUNDAY 7:00 P.M. EASTERN TIME ON CNN.

>>> HOW OFTEN DO YOU CHECK YOUR PHONE?

MAYBE YOU'RE ON IT RIGHT NOW, I HOPE NOT.

MORE AND MORE PEOPLE FIND PAYING ATTENTION A REAL STRUGGLE IN THIS WORLD WHICH IS DOMINATED BY DISTRACTION.

HOW DOES A LACK OF FOCUS AFFECT OUR SOCIETY AND POLITICS?

AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST CHRIS HAYES DIGS INTO THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK, THE SIREN'S CALL.

HE TELLS US WHAT HE HAS FOUND.

>> CHRISTIANE , THANKS.

THE RECENT BOOK HERE, THE SIREN'S CALL, HOW ATTENTION BECAME THE WORLD'S MOST ENDANGERED RESOURCE.

WE HAVE HEARD THIS AGE CALLED THE DIGITAL AGE, DATA IS THE NEW OIL, YOU'RE ARGUING ATTENTION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, WHY?

>> I THINK THAT WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE IDEA THE DIGITAL AGE, INFORMATION AGE, THE IMPORTANCE OF INFORMATION AND DATA WHICH IS TRUE, INFORMATION DATA ARE ESSENTIAL TO THE ECONOMIC PRODUCTION AND SOCIAL LIFE WE LIVE.

THE THING ABOUT INFORMATION AND DATA, IT IS BOUNTIFUL, ESSENTIALLY INFINITE AND CHEAP BECAUSE OF THAT.

THERE MIGHT BE 10 OR 100 FIRMS THAT HAVE YOUR DATA AND TO YOU, IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT MUCH TO AFFECT YOUR LIFE.

THE THING THAT MAKES ATTENTION SUCH AN IMPORTANT RESOURCE IS, ONE, INFORMATION CONSUMES IT.

THE MORE INFORMATION THERE IS IN YOUR ENVIRONMENT, THE HARDER IT IS TO FOCUS.

INFORMATION CONSUMES ATTENTION.

TWO, ATTENTION IS BOUNDED AND FINITE, IT CAN BE IN ONE PLACE OR ANOTHER.

IF 100 FIRMS HAVE YOUR DATA, IT MAY NOT AFFECT YOUR DAY-TO-DAY LIFE.

IF SOMEONE HAS YOUR ATTENTION AT A GIVEN MOMENT, ON A CROWDED SUBWAY CAR OR AT YOUR KIDS' SCHOOL AND SOMEONE STARTS SCREAMING, SIREN COMES DOWN THE STREET OR BABY CRIES ON A PLANE, THAT TAKES YOUR ATTENTION AWAY FROM YOU.

THE FINITUDE OF THAT RESOURCE IS THE THING EVERYONE IS COMPETING FOR.

BECAUSE IT IS AT A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL HARDWIRED TO GIVE TO SOME, MAKES IT INTENSE VALUE.

>> THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH TIME IN A DAY THAT I HAVE, I CANNOT CREATE MORE TIME.

AS MORE THINGS COMPETE FOR THAT TIME, MY ATTENTION BECOMES MORE VALUABLE THE MORE SOCIAL MEDIA, TV CHANNELS, EVERYTHING ELSE THAT EXIST OUT THERE, THAT COMPETITION MAKES THAT MILLISECOND EVEN MORE LUCRATIVE .

>> EXACTLY.

WHAT IS INTERESTING, IT BOTH HAS A MARKET PRICE OUTSIDE OF US AND THERE IS A WEIRD THING ABOUT ITS VALUE.

IN THE AGGREGATE, WHEN POOLED OVER 1 BILLION USERS LIKE TIKTOK, META HAVE, UNPRECEDENTED FORTUNES.

THE SECOND YOU'RE UNLOADING INSTAGRAM REAL, FRACTIONS OF PENNIES.

IT IS ACTUAL MARKET PRICES, NOTHING BUT TO YOU, IT IS THE MOST PRECIOUS THING YOU HAVE SPEED IN THE BOOK, YOU GO BACK TO A LITTLE BIT OF PSYCHOLOGY AND BIOLOGY AND YOU POINT OUT, THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF ATTENTION.

THERE IS THE KIND THAT I VOLUNTARILY WANT TO GIVE, AND VOLUNTARY, SOCIAL ATTENTION, EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE.

>> ONE OF THE TRICKIEST THINGS ABOUT ATTENTION IS WE DO HAVE THIS COMPULSORY ASPECT TO IT.

IF THE SIREN COMES DOWN THE STREET, A WAITER DROPPED THE GLASS IN A RESTAURANT, YOU DON'T GET A SAY OVER WHETHER YOUR ATTENTION IS DRAWN TO IT, IT IS DRAWN TO IT PRE- CONSCIOUSLY, COMPELLED INVOLUNTARY ATTENTION.

THAT FACULTY IS VERY POWERFUL BECAUSE THE EVOLUTIONARY ORIGIN OF HEARING THE PREDATOR RUSSELL THE BUSHES OR THE SOUND OF DANGER.

THE VOLUNTARY ATTENTION THAT WE WANT TO PAY AND THE BATTLE BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS.

ONE OF THE THINGS ARGUED IN THE BOOK, COMPETITIVE ATTENTION MARKETS TEND TO DRIVE TOWARD COMPELLED ATTENTION, WHICH IS GLARING INTERRUPTION.

CASINO FLOORS, TIMES SQUARE, THE TABLOIDS SUPERMARKET COUNTER, YOU HAVE COMPETITIVE ATTENTION SPACE, THEY ARE TRYING TO COMPEL YOU AWAY.

ON TOP OF THAT, THERE IS THE FACT THAT WE AS HUMANS CAN BE PAID ATTENTION TO AND THAT HAS A PARTICULAR DROP ON WHAT WE PAY ATTENTION TO .

IF YOU HEAR YOUR NAME AT A PARTY, IT WILL DRAW YOUR ATTENTION, EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT FOCUSED ON THE CONVERSATION, THEY COULD BE TALKING FOR A MINUTE AND YOU HEARD LITERALLY NOTHING THEY SAID BEFORE AND SUDDENLY YOUR NAME, THIS IS ACTUALLY A FINDING IN THE EXPERIMENTAL LITERATURE, YOUR NAME AND YOUR NAME ALONE WILL DRAW YOUR ATTENTION LIKE A SIREN OR A BABY CRYING OR GLASS SHATTERING.

SPEED I WILL SAY YOUR NAME EVERY TIME NOW SO THAT YOU NOT TALKING TO YOU.

THIS HAS BEEN THE PURVIEW OF NEWSPAPER EVER SINCE THEY EXISTED, EVERYONE TRYING TO BE THE TOWN CRIER, SOMEONE WOULD STAND AT THE MIDDLE OF THE SQUARE WITH THE TOLL, HERE YOU CAN HEAR YOU, THE NEWS OF THE DAY.

WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US NOW VERSUS THIS, IS IT THAT INCREASE OF THE COMMODIFICATION, DECREASE OF OUR TIME?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION, I SHOULD NOTE THAT YES, A LOT OF CONTINUITY, IT IS POWERFUL.

MARK ANTONY IN JULIA SEASON, FRIENDS, COUNTRYMEN, LEND ME YOUR EARS, GETTING YOUR ATTENTION FOR IMPORTANT THING, PERSUADE THE CROWD TO BACK HIM IN THE WAKE OF CAESAR'S DEATH.

THERE'S CONTINUITY, VERY POWERFUL RESOURCE BUT WHAT IS DIFFERENT IS THAT UBIQUITY, THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SMART PHONE IN 2007 MEANT THAT WE SUDDENLY HAD A PORTAL AT ALL TIMES.

THE SUM TOTAL OF ATTENTION GRABBING CONTENT EVER CREATED BY HUMANS ON THE PLANET OVER THE COURSE OF HISTORY.

AT ALL MOMENTS, THERE'S A COMPETITION OF EVERYTHING EVER MADE FOR YOUR ATTENTION.

THAT IS PRETTY UNPRECEDENTED.

SECOND, THE SOCIAL ASPECT.

MOVIES ACTUALLY CAN'T TALK TO YOU, TV SHOWS CAN'T TALK TO YOU BUT THE INTERNET PLATFORMS CAN.

YOU CAN SEE WHAT YOUR MENTIONS AND TAGS ARE, THEY ARE WORKING OFF OF THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM OF SOCIAL ATTENTION THAT GRABS YOUR NAME AT THAT COCKTAIL PARTY AT SCALE ENGINEERED TO MAKE YOU PAY ATTENTION.

THAT IS ALSO NEW.

THIRD IS BECAUSE OF THE EFFECT OF OVERWHELMING INFORMATION AND THE PRIVACY OF IT TO OUR ECONOMIC SOCIAL INSTITUTIONAL AND POLITICAL LIVES, THERE IS MORE SCARCITY, LIKE I SAID AT THE BEGINNING.

THE COMPETITION IS FIERCE THERE AND BEING EXTRACTED AND MONETIZED AT A GLOBAL SCALE IT NEVER WAS BEFORE.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYONE TALKING TO 2 BILLION PEOPLE THE WAY THAT META AND BYTEDANCE ARE.

>> WHAT YOU POINT OUT WITH THE BOOK, I SEE SO MANY PARALLELS TO THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOOD INDUSTRY AND HOW WE SEEM TO BE SO MUCH MORE ADDICTED TO SUGAR.

HOW DO YOU TRY TO GET SOMETHING LIKE ATTENTION BACK?

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU POINT TO THE FOOD ANALOGY OR PRECEDENT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS THE CLOSEST ONE HERE.

IN THE SAME WAY WE HAVE CERTAIN BIOLOGICAL INHERITANCES, WE LIKE SALT, FAT, SUGAR, YOU RELEASE LARGE GLOBAL CAPITALISM ON THAT PROBLEM, IT WILL GIVE YOU COCA-COLA AND FRIES.

YOU CAN SELL IT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

THE THING ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS, THEIR TASTES ARE ALMOST TOO DIVERSE TO CHARACTERIZE, THEY WILL EAT A MILLION DIFFERENT THINGS BECAUSE OF HOW IMPOSSIBLY COMPLICATED HUMANS ARE IN TERMS OF CULTURE AND CUISINE AND HISTORY.

THE SAME IS TRUE FOR ATTENTION, WE HAVE TWO CELLS, THE CELLS COMPELLED BY THE CASINO FLOOR, TIMES SQUARE.

THEN THERE ARE THE PARTS OF PEOPLE THAT GO TO EIGHT HOUR OPERAS AND WATCH FOUR HOUR PODCAST.

IT IS AMAZING, PEOPLE BUY AND READ BOOKS.

WHAT AN AMAZING THING, PEOPLE BUY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS WILL DO THIS.

THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE CULTIVATE MARKET STRUCTURES, GOVERNMENT REGULATION, SOCIAL AND CYNIC LIFE TO CULTURE THE DIVERSITY OF OUR ATTENTION AS OPPOSED TO THE FLATTENING?

THE FOOD EXAMPLE IS REALLY GOOD.

WE HAVE SEEN A REVOLUTION OF THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS AWAY FOOD MARKETS WORK, THE RISE OF ORGANIC FOOD AND FARM TO TABLE, AND FARMERS' MARKET.

MOVING AWAY FROM THE ULTRA PROCESSED CASSEROLES AND JELL-O SALADS OF THE LATE 1970s AND 1980s THAT ARE ALMOST PUNCHLINE.

WE HAVE REALLY SEEN THROUGH ALL DIFFERENT NEEDS, CULTURAL, SOCIAL, REGULATORY, LEGAL, ORGANIZING ACTIVISM, A REVOLUTION ON HOW WE RELATE TO FOOD.

I THINK WE'RE AT THAT POINT IN ATTENTION AS WELL.

>> HOW TO BUILD AN ATTENTION MARKET WITH SIMILAR OUTCOMES?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK THAT HOW MARKETS ARE STRUCTURED MATTERS, MONETIZED OR NOT.

GROUP CHATS ARE GREAT EXAMPLE OF PART OF THE DIGITAL LIFE THAT I REALLY LIKE.

THEY ALLOW ME TO STAY CONNECTED TO PEOPLE I DON'T LIVE NEAR, THAT I'VE KNOWN A LONG TIME.

I LIKE WHEN MY ATTENTION IS ON THEM BECAUSE I'M TALKING TO MY FRIENDS.

CRUCIALLY, NO ONE IS MONETIZING MY ATTENTION IN THE GROUP CHAT AREA >> YET.

>> YET.

THIS IS A KEY THING, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SPACES THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY NONCOMMERCIAL AND SPACES THAT ARE COMMERCIAL.

THERE ARE VERSIONS OF DIGITAL LIFE ON THE INTERNET THAT DON'T HAVE TO BE COMMERCIAL.

IN FACT, WE HAD AN OPEN WEB BEFORE WE WERE DOMINATED BY THE WEB 2.0 PLATFORMS WHERE OPEN PROTOCOLS, PODCASTS ARE GREAT EXAMPLES THAT EVERYONE LOVES, THE PHRASE, WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCAST, SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT PODCAST EXISTS ON OPEN INTERNET ARCHITECTURE WERE THERE NOT COMMERCIALLY BOUND BY A PLATFORM ATTEMPTING TO MONETIZE YOUR ATTENTION.

THEY HAVE GIVEN RISE TO THIS INCREDIBLE VERSION.

REBUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE INTERNET AROUND NONCOMMERCIALLY ENCLOSED PLATFORMS ATTEMPTING TO MONETIZE ATTENTION.

I THINK THERE'S REAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LAW AND REGULATION AND GETTING SERIOUS ABOUT REGULA AND HOW ATTENTION IS EXTRACTED FROM HIS AUNT WHO IT IS EXTRACTED FROM.

>> WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR ECOSYSTEM AND LANDSCAPE?

YOU ARE A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN ON THE PLATFORM, AT LEAST 10 YEARS, HOW DOES A PROGRAM LIKE YOURS AND NETWORK LIKE OURS STAY RELEVANT?

>> IT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

ONE THING TRIP ATTENTION AGE, EASIER TO GRAB ATTENTION THAN TO HOLD ATTENTION.

THAT IS UNIVERSAL TRUTH, ASK ANY PERSON YOU MEET TO WALK INTO A ROOM OF 500 PEOPLE AND GET THEM AND ASK THEM, YOU CAN USE ANY TOOL YOU NEED TO GET EVERYONE'S ATTENTION, THEY COULD PROBABLY DO IT.

YOU TELL THEM TO GIVE A TALK FOR AN HOUR THAT HELD THEIR ATTENTION FOR AN HOUR, THAT IS A LOT HARDER.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE TRY TO DO IS BALANCE ARE INTENTIONAL POWERS, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT CABLE NEWS, WITH ANOTHER SET OF VALUES.

THE WAY TO THINK ABOUT ATTENTION IS A MEANS TOWARD AN END TO THAT END WE ARE TRYING TO GET TO IS EDUCATE PEOPLE, ENLIGHTEN THEM, GIVEN THE TOOLS FOR SELF-GOVERNANCE AND CIVIC FLOURISHING.

THE ATTENTION IS A MEANS TO DO THAT.

WHAT HAPPENS IN COMPETITIVE ATTENTION MARKETS, ATTENTION IS THE MEANS THAT END AND OF ITSELF, THAT IS THE THING BEING SOLD.

I THINK THAT HAVING PLACES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE OTHER IMPERATIVES IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHATEVER GENRE THEY ARE WORKING IN.

PEOPLE DO AWESOME STUFF ON TIKTOK AND AMAZING PODCAST, AMAZING STUFF ON SHORT FORM VIDEO AND ON YOUTUBE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE DOING AMAZING WORK AT ALL THOSE PLACES AND THE REASON THEY'RE DOING AMAZING WORK IS BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVE SOMETHING THERE TIME TO DO OTHER THAN GETTING PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

>> SHOULD WE, COLLECTIVELY AS A SOCIETY, TRY TO MODERATE THIS IN SOME WAY?

IT SEEMED LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT RUN SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS ARE ALL TOO HAPPY TO GO TO CAPITOL HILL AND TELL THE SENATORS TO THEIR FACES, PLEASE REGULATE US KNOWING THAT NOTHING WILL HAPPEN OR EVEN IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, IT WILL BE SO LATE AND LONG THAT TECHNOLOGY AND USER PATTERNS CHANGE AND I WILL MAKE A FEW BILLION IN BETWEEN.

>> THEY WILL SAY, PLEASE REGULATE US, BUT IF YOU TRY TO DO THINGS LIKE PUT ON AGE CAPS, THEY FIGHT IT SO YES, THEY WANT TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN REGULATORS AND REGULATION.

I THINK YOU NEED BOTH REGULATION AND ALTERNATIVES.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF REGULATING ATTENTION IN SOME WAY WHETHER THAT IS ESSENTIALLY A HARD LIMIT ON SCREEN TIME, STATUTORY LIMIT, IN PEOPLE'S HEADS, THAT IS INSANE AND MOST JOURNALISTIC THING.

PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT ABOUT MAXIMUM HOURS AT A CERTAIN POINT.

THAT IS THE LOCHNER DECISION, FAMOUS SUPREME COURT DECISION IS ALL ABOUT.

IF NEW YORK SAYS, YOU CAN ONLY WORK 55 HOURS A WEEK, IS THAT PATERNALISM OR PROTECTING SOMETHING ESSENTIAL ABOUT YOU?

DOES THE CONSTITUTION NOT THAT LAW DOWN?

IT IS WORTH THINKING ABOUT THAT FOR ATTENTION TO I ALSO THINK THAT YOU CAN'T DO THAT UNLESS YOU ARE ALSO NURTURING ALTERNATIVES THAT ARE OPEN PLATFORM CIVIC ALTERNATIVES.

BECAUSE THERE ARE WAYS THAT WE COULD COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER, VIDEO DOES NOT HAVE TO EXIST INSIDE YOU TO.

THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE OPEN PLATFORMS IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN DO THINGS.

TO COME BACK TO PODCASTS, IT IS SO STRIKING TO ME THAT THIS EMERGED AS A DOMINANT FORM WHEN IT IS THE ONE THAT RELIES ON THE OPEN PLATFORM.

I DO THINK THERE'S A CONNECTION TO IT, THERE'S A CONNECTION BETWEEN CREATIVITY AND THE OPENNESS OF THE PLATFORM.

>> YOU ARE ROLLING THIS BOOK OUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, I WONDER, HAVING WATCHED THE ELECTION AND ENTIRE POLITICAL RUN-UP TO IT SO CLOSELY OVER THE PAST DECADE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE SELECTION AND PERHAPS, ON WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID WELL THAT THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD LEARN FROM IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A CHANCE AT RUNNING AGAINST HIM OR THE PARTY WITH ANYBODY ELSE?

>> THERE'S A CHAPTER IN THE BOOK ABOUT PUBLIC ATTENTION, IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, I TALKED QUITE A BIT ABOUT TRUMP WHAT I SAY IS, HE HAS KIND OF ONE SIMPLE TRICK AND INSIGHT INTO ATTENTION WHICH IS SIMPLY THAT, IN THE ATTENTION AGE, WHEN ATTENTION IS MORE VALUABLE THAN EVER, GETTING IT AND THE QUANTITY OF IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHETHER IT IS POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.

HE IS ALMOST WITHIN ANY POLITICIAN I'VE SEEN, WILLING TO GET NEGATIVE ATTENTION, CONTROVERSY, RAGE, PROTESTS, IF HE IS GETTING ATTENTION.

THE FIRST MOMENT WHEN HE SAID, JOHN McCAIN, I LIKE PEOPLE THAT WERE CAPTURED.

THAT WAS A VERY ATTENTION- GETTING STATEMENT.

THAT HAS BEEN THE M.O.

MOST POLITICIANS DON'T LIKE THAT.

MOST POLITICIANS, IF THE OPTION IS I GOT AND GET ATTENTION THAT IS NEGATIVE OR I GET NO ATTENTION, I WOULD TAKE THE LATTER.

I DON'T WANT NEWS, KEEP MY HEAD DOWN.

I THINK THAT HE HAS SHOWN, OPTIMIZE THE ATTENTION AGE, ELON MUSK AS WELL, IS THAT ATTENTION DOMINATION IN POLITICS IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT .

IT MIGHT BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN FINE GREAT MESSAGING, MORE IMPORTANT THAN ADVERTISING.

AND THAT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO TAKE DOWNSIDE RISK TO GET IT .

MAYBE YOU TAKE SOME OF THAT RISK ON BUT AS PT BARNUM SAID, AS LONG AS YOU SPELL MY NAME RIGHT.

>> HOW ABOUT HIM IN A SINGULAR WAY, THERE BEEN POLITICIANS, EVEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THAT TRIED TO TAKE THAT ROUTE -- >> AND IT DID NOT WORK .

>> NO.

>> DONALD TRUMP IS EXCEPTIONAL IN SOMEHOW THREADING THIS NEEDLE VERSUS IF YOU'RE WRITING A PLAYBOOK FOR THE DEMOCRATS IN THREE YEARS, WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM?

>> IT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT BECAUSE IT IS REALLY TRUE.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY, ESSENTIALLY KNOCK OFF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, THAT HAVE LOST IMMINENTLY WINNABLE RACES, BEING OUTRAGEOUS AND POLARIZING AND OF NOXIOUS AND HIGH NEGATIVES AND LOSING RACES THEY SHOULD'VE WON.

KARI LAKE, HERSCHEL WALKER, DR. OZ, ON AND ON.

A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM, ONE OF THE STORIES OF THE TRUMP ERA, TRUMP MANAGES TO PULL IT OFF AND TRUMP LIKE CANDIDATES DO MUCH WORSE THAN -- REPUBLICANS.

THERE IS A REAL TRADE-OFF THERE .

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS ARE DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE ATTENTION IMPERATIVES ARE AT THEIR MOST COMPETITIVE AND MOST IMPORTANT.

I THINK THAT ALSO, TRUMP IS ABLE TO PULL IT OFF BECAUSE OF SOMETHING PARTICULAR AND GENUINE AND AUTHENTIC TO WHO HE IS.

AT THE CORE OF HIS BEING, HE NEEDS THAT ATTENTION AND HE ISN'T FAKING IT.

THAT IS ANOTHER PART OF HIS APPEAL, A CERTAIN PERSONALITY LIKE ELON MUSK, WHO IS PULLING OFF THE SAME TRICK.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "SIRENS' CALL", THE WORLD BECAME THE MOST ENDANGERED RESOURCE, HOST OF PODCASTS AND TV SHOW, ATTENTION GRABBER EVERYWHERE, CHRIS HAYES ON PBS.

>> I APPRECIATE IT, THANK YOU.

>> ALL OF THAT IS FASCINATING.

THAT IS IT FOR A PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.