>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THEY MEET TRUMP IN D.C. AS GAZA CEASE FIRE TALKS CONTINUE IN DOHA.

COULD A DEAL BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS BE WITHIN REACH?

ISRAELI JOURNALIST N ADAV EXPLAINS.

>>> PLUS A REPORT WHERE THE STRIKES CONTINUE TO DEVASTATE.

>>> THEN -- >> IT'S A HORRIBLE SENSE OF SEARCH.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING YOU HOPE YOU DON'T FIND.

>> TEXAS BRACES FOR MORE RAIN AFTER FLOODS KILL OVER 80 AND THE SEARCH FOR SURVIVORS ENTERS ITS FOURTH DAY.

WE GET THE LATEST ON THE GROUND.

>>> AND AS EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS BECOME MORE FREQUENT, HOW CAN WE PREPARE?

ALSO AHEAD -- >>> THIS IS MY IDEA THAT GENIUSES YOU KNOW, ANOINTING SOMEONE A GENIUS IS OFTEN A KIND OF POLITICAL ARGUMENT BEHIND IT.

>> JOURNALIST HELEN LEWIS SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HER NEW BOOK "DEBUNKING THE GENIUS MYTH."

.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD.

THE PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

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SEETONJ.

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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M BEE ANOIA GOLD RIGA IN NEW YORK.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS BACK IN WASHINGTON TO MEET WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR A THIRD TIME THIS YEAR.

NOW THIS COMES AT A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS INDIRECT TALKS BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL CONTINUE IN DOHA TO SECURE ANOTHER CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE.

NETANYAHU SAID THAT TRUMP WOULD QUOTE HELP US MOVE CLOSER TO AN AGREEMENT.

AND TRUMP HIMSELF ALSO SOUNDS HOPEFUL.

>> I THINK WE'RE CLOSE TO A DEAL ON GAZA.

WE COULD HAVE IT THIS WEEK.

I THINK THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE WE HAVE A DEAL WITH HAMAS DURING THE WEEK.

DURING THE COMING WEEK.

PERTAINING TO QUITE A FEW OF THE HOSTAGES.

YEAH.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTEN A LOT OF THE HOSTAGES OUT.

BUT PERTAINING TO THE REMAINING HOSTAGES, QUITE A FEW OF THEM WILL BE COMING OUT.

WE THINK WE'LL HAVE THAT DONE >> BUT ALTHOUGH NETANYAHU ASPEARS SUPPORTIVE HE ALSO CLAIMS THAT HAMAS IS SEEKING CHANGES THAT ARE UNACCEPTABLE.

ISRAEL CONTINUES TO STRIKE THE ENCLAVE WITH DOZENS KILLED ON SUNDAY AND THE DEATH TOLL NOW EXCEEDING 57,000 ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY THERE.

PAULA HANCOCKS BRINGS US THE REPORT ON THE DEVASTATION.

>> Reporter: HAMAS AND ISRAEL MAY BE CLOSER THAN THEY'VE BEEN IN MONTHS TO A CEASE-FIRE.

BUT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT IN GAZA.

WELL OVER 1,000 PEOPLE KILLED IN THE PAST 12 DAYS ACCORDING TO MINISTRY OF HEALTH DAILY COUNTS.

ISRAELI AIR STRIKE KILLED TWO DOZEN IN THIS HOUSE IN THE WEST OF GAZA CITY INCLUDING EIGHT CHILDREN ACCORDING TO HOSPITAL OFFICIALS.

>> WE ARE.

>> Reporter: THE HOUSE WAS TARGETED AROUND 2:00 A.M.

THIS NEIGHBOR SAID.

WE GOT TWO PEOPLE OUT ALIVE AFTER TREMENDOUS HOURS OF TRYING.

THERE WERE ABOUT 35 PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE.

IT IS HORRIFYING ANOTHER A MOTHER AND SON WERE SLEEPING THEN BROKEN INTO PIECES.

THERE'S NO REASON FOR THIS.

>> Reporter: CNN HAS REACHED OUT TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY FOR COMMENT.

BUT IN AN UPDATE SUNDAY, THE IDF SAID IT CONTINUED TO TARGET TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS IN GAZA AND RECENTLY DISMANTLED THE OBSERVATION POST IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

A DESALINATION PLANT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF GAZA CITY WAS HIT BY AIR STRIKE ON SATURDAY.

FUNERALS HELD FOR THOSE KILLED IN SOUTHERN GAZA SATURDAY EVENING.

NEWS OF A POSSIBLE CEASE-FIRE EDGING CLOSER HAS REACHED THOSE WHO STAND TO GAIN THE MOST FROM THE GUNS FALLING SILENT.

>> THIS WOMAN SAYS --I AGREE TO A 60 DAY TRUCE.

EVEN IF IT'S 50 DAYS OR 40 DAYS, JUST TO REST A LITTLE.

WE ARE EXHAUSTED.

PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND PHYSICALLY.

NO COUNTRY HAS ENDURED WHAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HAVE ENDURED.

>> Reporter: THE CEASE-FIRE AT THE START OF THIS YEAR LASTED JUST TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE AIR STRIKES RESUMED.

>> I HOPE THIS TRUCE WILL BE REAL AND NOT JUST ON PAPER, THIS MAN SAYS.

>> Reporter: OTHERS CALL ON BOTH HAMAS AND ISRAEL TO AGREE TO THE DEAL.

WITH DOZENS DYING EVERY DAY IN RECENT WEEKS, EVERY FURTHER DAY OF NEGOTIATION WILL BE A DEATH SENTENCE FOR SOME.

>> PAULA HANCOCKS REPORTING THERE.

WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IN THE CURRENT CEASE-FIRE DEAL?

CAN THE TWO SIDES REACH AN AGREEMENT?

AND WHAT ARE THE STICKING POINTS?

ISRAELI JOURNALIST JOINS ME NOW.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

SO WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP OVER THE WEEKEND SAYING THERE'S A QUOTE, GOOD CHANCE OF AN ISRAEL-HAMAS DEAL BEING ANNOUNCED AS SOON AS THIS WEEK.

DO YOU SHARE HIS OPTIMISM?

>> Reporter: WELL, I THINK THAT MY SOURCES DO SHARE IT.

IF YOU LOOK JUST AT STATEMENTS MADE BY HAMAS, IN THE LAST HOUR OR SO, THEY'RE SAYING THAT THERE'S A CHANCE TO REACH AN WEEK.

NOW I THINK THAT'S MY --THAT MIGHT BE TOO OPTIMISTICS THERE ARE STILL ISSUES AND STICKING POINTS AT HAND.

BUD IF YOU LOOK AT THE OF ALL PICTURE, THERE IS MOTIVATION BOTH ON THE HAMAS SIDE AND ISRAEL SIDE AND MAINLY WITH THE MEDIATORS AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE WHITE HOUSE TO GET AN AGREEMENT.

>> SO ALL EYES ARE ON BOTH DOHA AND D.C. WE KNOW THESE NEGOTIATIONS HAVE BEEN GOING ON IN DOHA FOR SEVERAL HOURS ALREADY TODAY.

THERE ARE SOME STICKING POINTS STILL JEOPARDIZING A DEAL.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH EXACTLY WHAT THOSE STICKING POINTS ARE?

AND HOW IF AT ALL THEY'VE CHANGED OVER THE COURSE OF LAST FEW MONTHS BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THE DEAL BEING NEGOTIATED NOW IS BASICALLY THE SAME DEAL THAT WAS PRESENTED MONTHS AGO.

>> Reporter: YEAH.

THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THE MAIN STICKING POINT IS ALWAYS THE SAME.

ISRAEL WANTS TO RETAIN THE POSSIBILITY OF RESUMING THE WAR BETWEEN THIS PHASE AND THE FINAL PHASE IN WHICH THE WAR WOULD END.

AND I NEED TO EXPLAIN HERE THAT THE ISRAELIS WANT TO HAVE THAT SORT OF LEVERAGE BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SPECIFIC DEMAND OF HAMAS THAT HAMAS CAN'T LIVE WITH AND THAT DEMAND IS TO RELEASE ITS CONTROL OF THE GAZA STRIP AND TO DISARM.

IF HAMAS WOULD HAVE SAID YES TO THAT, THE WAR COULD HAVE BEEN OVER IN FIVE MINUTES.

BUT HAMAS WOULD NOT DISARM AND IT DOESN'T WANT TO LOSE CONTROL OF THE GAZA STRIP RIGHT NOW.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT, WHAT THE ISRAELIS ARE SAYING, IF THIS IS THE CASE, WE'RE WILLING TO A HAVE TWO PHASE DEAL AND TO NEGOTIATE ABOUT THAT ISSUE OF HOW THE GAZA STRIP IS GOING TO BE GOVERNED BETWEEN THE PHASES.

BUT IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO -- ALLOW US TO DISARM YOU, IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE TO RELEASE YOUR CONTROL OF THE GAZA STRIP, THE WAR MIGHT RESUME.

THIS POINT HAS BEEN THE POINT OVER A YEAR NOW IN THE THIS DEAL, IN THE PREVIOUS DEAL, IN THE FIRST DEAL.

IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME ISSUE.

NOW THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES, FOR INSTANCE.

HAMAS DOESN'T WANT THIS NEW SYSTEM OF HF OF THE WAY THAT ISRAEL IS RELEASING HUMANITARIAN AID AND ASSISTANCE INTO THE GAZA STRIP IN A WAY IN WHICH PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS CAN ACTUALLY PICK UP THEIR OWN FOOD.

HAMAS WANTS TO HAVE ITS CONTROL OF THE --GOING INTO THE GAZA STRIP, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR HAMAS BECAUSE HAMAS IS MAKING MONEY OUT OF THIS.

AND IT'S ALSO A SHOW OF ITS OWN POWER TOWARDS ITS PEOPLE.

SO THEY WANT ISRAEL TO AGREE TO STOP THE OPERATIONS OF THESE CENTERS THAT ARE DISTRIBUTING FOOD TO BEGIN WITH.

AND ISRAEL RIGHT NOW IS NOT WILLING TO AGREE TO THAT.

THAT'S ANOTHER STICKING POINT.

NOW THERE'S AN ISSUE OF WHO -- WHO WOULD BE EXACTLY THE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS CONVICTED FOR TERRORISM AND FOR MURDER IN ISRAELI PRISONS THAT WOULD BE RELEASED AS PART OF THIS DEAL?

THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE.

AND ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE MAINLY STUCK ON DETAILS RIGHT?

ALWAYS ABOUT THE DETAILS AND THIS IS THE REASON WHY IT TOOK SO LONG THE LAST TIME THAT ISRAEL AND HAMAS --[ INAUDIBLE ] >> THE AID DISTRIBUTION ITSELF, THE GHF, THE GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION, HAS BEEN MIRED IN CONTROVERSY WE SHOULD SAY AS THIS PLAN THAT HAS BEEN BACKED BY BOTH ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN ON THE GROUND, DELIVERING.

THEY'VE OPENED MORE HUBS, YES, OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE HAVE BEEN DOZENS OF THOSE KILLED.

ALMOST, YOU KNOW, ON A WEEKLY BASIS.

AND SO THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING IN ISRAEL'S FAVOR EITHER.

AND AS YOU KNOW, THOUGH, THERE'S CONCERN IN THE GOVERNMENT THAT GIVING INTO HAMAS' DEMAND WILL ONLY GIVE THEM MORE LEVERAGE AS WELL.

THOUGH THEY ARE SO WEAKENED NOW.

ONE HAS TO WONDER WHO WOULD EVEN BE IN CHARGE OF THE DISTRIBUTION AT THIS POINT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WOULD BE WILLING TO BUDGE ON OUT OF THOSE STICKING POINTS AT THIS TIME?

>> Reporter: I GUESS THAT A PERFECT SOLUTION OR AT LEAST COMPROMISE WOULD BE THAT BOTH SYSTEMS WOULD WORK AT ONCE AND YOU HAVE CONVOYS OF AID, OF THESE TRUCKS, GOING INTO NORTHERN GAZA.

YOU HAD SOME GOING IN TODAY AND THIS WAS AUTHORIZED BY THE ISRAELI CABINET AFTER A FIERCE BATTLE WITH THE FAR RIGHT MINISTER'S --SMOKE PIT.

THEY WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

SO YOU HAVE THE CONVOYS.

BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE GHF DISTRIBUTING FOOD DIRECTLY TO THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

SO THAT'S --THAT'S THE TYPE OF COMPROMISE THAT THE MEDIATORS ARE RIGHT NOW DISCUSSING IN QATAR WHETHER OR NOT THE ISRAELIS AND HAMAS --AND THE HAMAS CAN AGREE ON THAT, THAT'S A QUESTION.

BUT LOOKING INTO THE HORIZON, ISRAELIS ARE ALSO DISCUSSING THE POSSIBILITY OF PART OF THE POPULATION IN GAZA MOVING TO OTHER AREAS IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF GAZA SO THEY CAN FOCUS ON THE HAMAS STRONGHOLDS IN THE CENTER OF GAZA CITY.

AND THE CENTER OF THE GAZA STRIP.

SO THE REFUGEE CAMPS WHERE HAMAS IS STILL STRONG.

THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE.

IT'S RIGHT NOW DISCUSSED IN ISRAEL.

IS THIS GOING TO BE PART OF WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND NETANYAHU ARE GOING TO DISCUSS IN THE WHITE HOUSE?

I THINK IT'S EXTREMELY LIKELY.

I THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT WE WOULD HEAR THE PRESIDENT OR THE PRIME MINISTER TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF GAZA.

NOT ONLY ABOUT THE CEASE-FIRE, BUT HOW THIS CONFLICT ACTUALLY ENDS.

INCLUDING THE POSSIBILITIES OF PALESTINIANS BEING ALLOWED TO VOLUNTARY IMMIGRATE AND SOMETHING THAT THE PRESIDENT DISCUSSED BACK IN FEBRUARY AND THE PRIME MINISTER WANTS TO KEEP ALIVE FOR HIS COALITION NEEDS.

>> YEAH, IT'S NOTABLE WE HAVE NOT HEARD THE PRESIDENT REFERENCE THAT MUCH AS OF LATE.

BUT IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF IT COMES UP IN DISCUSSIONS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM LATER TODAY.

IT SEEMS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, THE ENTIRE REGION HAS TURNED AROUND FOLLOWING THE ISRAEL AND IRAN WAR.

AND THE UNITED STATES OBVIOUSLY PARTICIPATING AS WELL.

SOME VIEWED THIS VISIT AS ACTUALLY A CELEBRATORY EVENT WHERE BOTH CAN SORT OF GIVE EACH OTHER APPLAUSE AND PRAISE FOR HOW THAT MISSION WAS CONDUCTED.

AND HOW MUCH IT WEAKENED IRAN.

DOES THIS GIVE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU MORE LEVERAGE IN YOUR VIEW OVER SOME OF THE MORE EXTREMIST MEMBERS OF HIS COALITION IN WAYS THAT IT DIDN'T JUST THREE WEEKS AGO?

>> Reporter: ABSOLUTELY.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU RIGHT NOW IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL POLITICALLY COMPARED TO WHERE HE WAS AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

NOW I DON'T WANT TO OVERPLAY THIS.

PRIME MINISTER'S COALITION IS STILL LOSING IN EVERY POLL IN ISRAEL.

BUT THE PRIME MINISTER PERSONALLY GOT A LOT OF CREDIT BECAUSE OF THAT, HE HAS MUCH MORE LEVERAGE POLITICALLY TO PLAY WITH.

JUST LOOK AT THE STATEMENTS MADE BY, FOR INSTANCE, THE CENTRIST BENNY GANTZ WHO'S PART OF THE OPPOSITION RIGHT NOW.

HE'S NOT RULING OUT COMPLETELY THE POSSIBILITY IS THAT HISPARTY WOULD OFFER SOME SUPPORT TO NETANYAHU FROM OUTSIDE THE COALITION IF NETANYAHU DOES THE RIGHT THING AS HE SEES IT WHICH IS GOING FOR A DEAL.

AND MAYBE GOING THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, OF MORE NORMALIZATION.

SO THERE'S A NORMALIZATION PACKAGE HERE IN THE AIR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SOME OF ITS NEIGHBORS THAT IS --SUPPOSED TO TEMPT THE ISRAELI PUBLIC AND MAINLY THE RIGHT WING WITHIN THE ISRAELI COALITION, FOR NETANYAHU TO SAY LOOK, WE'RE STRIKING A DEAL RIGHT NOW WITH HAMAS AND THE GAZA STRIP.

THAT'S TRUE.

BUT IT'S JUST ONE PHASE.

AND LOOK WHAT WE'RE GETTING IN RETURN.

WE'RE STOPPING THE WAR AND WE'RE GETTING HOSTAGES BACK AND THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR THE ISRAELI PUBLIC BUT WE'RE ALSO SEEING DEVELOPMENTS ACROSS THE REGION THAT ARE POSITIVE MAYBE WITH SYRIA AND MAYBE WITH TURKEY AND MAYBE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES.

>> RIGHT AND AS THE GOVERNMENT GOES INTO RECESS NOW, IT'S IN SUMMER RECESS, THE ODDS OF THE GOVERNMENT FALLING APART RIGHT NOW ARE SLIM TO NONE AS WELL.

AND PERHAPS THAT BUYS HIM SOME ADDITIONAL TIME.

THE BIGGEST CONCERN FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT OF IRAN.

AND THOUGH IT HAS BEEN DEBATED HOW FAR BACK THESE RECENT STRIKES THAT IRAN'S NUCLEAR AND BALLISTIC PROGRAMS WHETHER IT'S A FEW MONTHS, I KNOW A LOT OF YOUR SOURCES SAY IT'S MORE LIKE A FEW YEARS.

SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS TO GET REASSURANCES FROM THE PRESIDENT THAT IF THEY START TO SEE IRAN ATTEMPT TO RECONSTITUTE EITHER ONE OF THOSE PROGRAMS HE WOULD GIVE THEM THE GREEN LIGHT TO CONTINUE THOSE STRIKES.

TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT ALONE.

>> Reporter: THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

THAT'S --JUAN OF POINTS THAT'S GOING TO DEFINITELY BE RAISED IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS IN THE MEETING BETWEEN PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND THE PRESIDENT.

WHAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WANTS IS SORT OF A PUBLIC COMMITMENT BY THE PRESIDENT THAT IF IRAN STRAYS AGAIN, OR TRIES TO RELEASE ITSELF FROM ITS DUTIES ACCORDING TO THE NPT, TO REBUILD ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM, EITHER ISRAEL WOULD BE GREEN LIGHTED TO ATTACK TO STRIKE AGAINST IRAN AGAIN, OR THE U.S. WOULD DO IT ITSELF.

NOW THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

BUT GETTING THIS AGAIN IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT TOGETHER WITH THE PRIME MINISTER WOULD BE SEEN AS A MAJOR WIN FOR THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER.

AND IT'S ALSO ESSENTIAL AS FAR AS THE ISRAELIS ARE CONCERNED TO DETER THE IRANIANS AND TO PUSH THEM TOWARDS AN AGREEMENT.

AN AGREEMENT WAS ALWAYS SORT OF THE FINAL AIM OF THE ISRAELI STRIKE AND THE AMERICAN STRIKE.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THIS NEEDS TO END WITH SOME SORT OF A STRICT AGREEMENT AS TO IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> THERE MAY BE SOME SURPRISING NEWS TOO THAT'S BEEN HINTED AT OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND THAT IS POTENTIAL NORMALIZATION WITH OTHER REGIONAL COUNTRIES.

PERHAPS EVEN SYRIA AT SOME POINT.

OR EVEN LEBANON.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TODAY ANNOUNCING THAT THEY'VE REVOKED THE FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION DESIGNATION FOR SYRIAN BASED NUSRA FRONT PERHAPS ANOTHER INDICATION OF THE PATH THAT IS GOING TOWARDS ANY SORT OF NORMALIZATION WITH ISRAEL.

WHAT ARE SOME CURVEBALLS THOUGH, THAT WE CAN ALSO SEE THROWN AT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE THAT AS WELL.

MOST NOTABLY THEIR MOST RECENT MEETING WHERE IN FRONT OF THE WORLD THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT YES, THE U.S. IS ENGAGING WITH IRAN.

>> Reporter: YEAH.

ALTHOUGH LOOKING AT THAT CURVEBALL, IN RETROSPECT, I THINK WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THIS WAS COORDINATED TO AN EXTENT >> WERE WE PLAYED?

>> Reporter: IN THAT SENSE -- SORRY?

>> WERE WE ALL PLAYED THEN?

>> Reporter: TO AN EXTENT YEAH.

WE SHOULD ALL RECOGNIZE WE WERE PLAYED TO AN EXTENT BY THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE IN JERUSALEM.

WE DID WRITE --I DID REPORT THAT MY SOURCES ARE SAYING THAT THE CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE PRESIDENT ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEY ARE PRESENTED BY PARTS OF THE MEDIA.

THEY'RE MUCH BETTER AS TO IRAN.

BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THEY WERE WORKING AS A TEAM AND I'M QUOTING PRESIDENT TRUMP ABOUT THIS.

NOW AS TO THE ACTUAL CURVEBALLS, LOOK, THE PRESIDENT STATED CLEARLY HE WANTS THE WAR IN GAZA TO END.

AND THE PRIME MINISTER IN ORDER TO SUPPLY WITH SOME ROOTS TO THAT, NEEDS TO MAINTAIN HIS COALITION.

SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE ARE TWO PLAYERS.

THE FIRST LAYER IS OF COURSE WAR.

THE SECOND LAYER IS GOING TO BE THE TYPE OF STUFF THAT NETANYAHU CAN COME BACK TO HIS FAR RIGHT COALITION PARTNERS AND SAY LOOK, LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT GAVE ME THIS AND THAT AND THIS IS THE REASON IT'S WORTH TO STAY IN THIS COALITION AND GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT'S THE SECOND AREA.

IT'S A POLITICAL AREA AND REALLY IMPORTANT TO THE PRIME MINISTER.

>> YEAH.

AND IMPORTANT TO ISRAELIS TO SEE AN END TO THE WAR WHERE ALL # OF THE --50 OF THE HOSTAGES BOTH ALIVE AND DECEASED COME HOME AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AS WELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS.

>>> RESCUE EFFORTS CONTINUE IN CENTRAL TEXAS AFTER CATASTROPHIC FLASH FLOODS DEVASTATED THE REGION IN THE EARLY HOURS OF FRIDAY MORNING.

LEAVING AT LEAST 89 PEOPLE DEAD AND DOZENS MISSING.

AMONG THE LIVES LOST.

27 YOUNG GIRLS AND COUNSELORS AT CAMP MYSTIC.

A CHRISTIAN SUMMER CAMP SITUATED ON THE GUADALUPE RIVER WHICH HOSE MORE THAN 20 FEET IN THE FLOODING LEFT PEOPLE CLINGING TO TREES AND FLOATING ON MATTRESSES AND CLIMING THROUGH WINDOWS.

THE STORIES OF SURVIVAL FROM THE HARROWING DISASTER HAVE BEEN EXTRAORDINARILY HEART- BREAKING.

CORRESPONDENT ISABEL ROSALES HAS BEEN SPEAKING TO PEOPLE ON THE GROUND IN CENTERPOINT,.

>> Reporter: ABOUT 25 MILES AWAY.

STILL IMPACTED BY THE GUADALUPE RIVER AND THE TRIBUTARIES THERE THAT FEED INTO THE RIVER.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING OUT HERE BY A VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT IS A LOT OF ACTIVITY.

WE'RE SEEING VOLUNTEERS ROLLING IN TRUCK AFTER TRUCK AFTER TRUCK, THEY'RE BRINGING IN HEAVY MACHINERY LIKE YOU CAN SEE OVER THERE.

THEY'RE REMOVING THIS GRAVEL WHAT APPEARS TO BE A BOAT RAMP HERE JUST CLEARING THE WAY.

NOT JUST THERE, BUT LOOK AT ALL OF THIS WORK THAT THEY HAVE AHEAD OF THEM.

HEAVY TREE LIMBS ALL OVER THE PLACE AND THE WORK IS NOT EASY FOR THESE HUNDREDS OF VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE CAREFULLY COMBING THROUGH THIS AREA.

MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE NOT MISSING ANY VICTIMS.

AND THEY'RE SEARCHING UNDERNEATH THESE HEAVY PILES OF DEBRIS AND INTO HOLES EXACTLY LIKE THIS ONE.

SO MANY AREAS WHERE SOMEBODY, A VICTIM, MIGHT BE FOUND.

I WANT TO ACTUALLY INTRODUCE YOU TO MICHAEL WHO IS A MARINE.

MICHAEL, YOU --TELL ME ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY INSPIRED YOU TO COME OUT HERE BECAUSE YOU ARE FROM THIS COMMUNITY.

>> YES, AND HONESTLY, WHAT INSPIRED ME IS THE FACT THAT I FIGURED I COULD BE PRIORITIZING MYSELF IN AN IMPORTANT WAY.

EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT ACTIVELY INVOLVED AS A FIRST RESPONDER AND EVERYTHING.

I FIGURED I CAN AT LEAST COME AND HELP RELIEVE THEM OF SOME STRESS AND EXHAUSTION AND ALSO IT'S MY COMMUNITY LIKE --MY FIANCEE IS FROM --SHE'S A NURSE OVER IN THIS COMMUNITY.

I WORK IN THIS COMMUNITY.

WE HAVE FRIENDS AND FAMILY IN THIS COMMUNITY AND HONESTLY, MY BIGGEST PASSION THAT KIND OF BROUGHT ME OUT HERE IS JUST IF ANYTHING TO FIND CLOSURE FOR THE FAMILIES BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE GOING TO FIND IF WE'RE GOING TO FIND ANYTHING BUT AT LEAST THE FACT THAT WE CAN FIND CLOSURE FOR EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL AND FAMILY MEMBER ESPECIALLY FOR THE CHILDREN THAT WERE LOST AT THE CAMPS AND ARE STILL MISSING, I FIGURED I COULD BELIEVE DOING MY PART JUST AS MUCH AS THESE FIRST RESPONDERS AND ACTIVE PERSONNEL ARE DOING.

>> Reporter: YEAH, YOU ARE ACTUALLY OUT HERE WITH YOUR MOTHER TOO.

YOU TOOK YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY OUT HERE TO HELP OUT AND IT'S INCREDIBLE SEEING THE LOVE FROM THIS COMMUNITY TO LEND THEIR TIME TO SEARCH FOR THESE MISSING PEOPLE.

WHAT CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE TODAY OUT HERE THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN FOR THE PAST FEW DAYS?

>> SO HONESTLY IT'S REALLY JUST MORE SEARCH AND RECOVERY.

HOPEFULLY PEOPLE FIND --TURN UP MISSING.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE PREPARED FOR MORE OF A RECOVERY EFFORT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME TODAY'S BRUNT FORCE IS GOING TO BE MORE PULLING DEBRIS.

>> Reporter: ACTUALLY REMOVING ALL THE STUFF OUT OF THE WAY.

>> YOU CAN SEE ALREADY THERE'S WORKERS DIGGING AND CUTTING AND EVERYTHING.

OUR JOB IS GOING TO BE MORE OF LIKE THE HEAVY LIFTING AND PULLING DEBRIS AND ACTUALLY FINDING THROUGH A LOT OF THE BRUSH.

I KNOW THAT UP TOWARDS HUNT AND EVERYTHING, THEY'RE STILL EXPECTING POSSIBLY FOR STORM SURGES.

>> Reporter: THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM.

>> WE HAVE TO BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR THAT TOO.

I WE HAD TO EVACUATE THE AREA YESTERDAY BECAUSE WE HAD MORE FLOODING.

IT'S KIND OF --MENTALLY CHALLENGING BECAUSE YOU HEAR A WEATHER WARNING NOW AND WE TYPICALLY BLOW OFF THE WEATHER WARNINGS.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TRAUMA NOW BECAUSE IT'S LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT NOW.

ESPECIALLY WITH HEARING THAT FLOODING CAME UP ABOUT 30 FEET IN 45 MINUTES ON THE FIRST DAY.

SO THE FACT THAT -- >> Reporter: YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY OF COURSE.

YEAH.

>> THE FACT THAT IT CAN JUST HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING.

>> Reporter: MICHAEL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

BACK TO YOU.

>> OUR THANKS TO ISABEL FOR THAT REPORT.

>>> WELL, THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SENT OUT LIFE- THREATENING FLOOD ALERTS EARLY FRIDAY MORNING.

BUT JUST HOW MANY DID THESE WARNINGS REACH?

AND WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS TRAGEDY?

JULIA KIM IS A FORMER ASSISTANT DEPUTY SECRETARY OF THE HOMELAND OF SECURITY AND RICHARD SPINRAD FOR THE NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

RICK, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WE HEARD BOTH THE PRESIDENT AND THE TEXAS GOVERNOR SAY THIS WAS A ONCE IN A CENTURY-TYPE OF STORM.

THIS PART OF TEXAS IN PARTICULAR IS KNOWN TO HAVE FLOODING.

BUT OBVIOUSLY NOT TO SUCH A SCALE AND DEADLY SCALE AT THAT.

REALLY HEART BREAKING TO HEAR THAT THERE ARE MORE IN RECOVERY MODE AT THIS POINT FOUR DAYS LATER SUGGESTING THAT THE CHANCES OF FINDING LIVING SURVIVORS ARE DIMINISHING BY THE HOUR.

AND BY THE DAY.

WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THESE HEADLINES, SAW THESE IMAGES AND READ THESE REPORTS, WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT CAME TO YOUR MIND?

IF YOU WANT TO ANSWER THAT AS BOTH A HUMAN BEING AND AN AMERICAN BUT ALSO AS EXPERT AND SOMEBODY BONOS NOAA IN AND OUT.

YOU CAN ANSWER IT FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES.

>> Reporter: YEAH.

THANK YOU.

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A DEVASTATING SET OF EVENTS AND THE FIRST AND THING THAT WENT THROUGH MY MIND IS I DO HOPE THAT THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HIT BY THIS HAVE THE BENEFIT OF BEING ABLE TO EVACUATE AND HAVING RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO THEM.

AS THE FORMER HEAD OF NOAA, I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE MACHINERY THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE FOR THE FORECAST AND FOR THE RESPONSE AND I WAS PLEASED TO SEE THAT THE WEATHER SERVICE WAS DOING THEIR JOB.

AND DOING IT WELL AND GETTING WATCHES, AND WARNINGS AND WHAT ARE CALLED WEAs.

THESE WIRELESS EMERGENCY ALERTS OUT IN A TIMELY AND ACCURATE KNOWS AND CERTAINLY AS JULIETTE KNOWS, THAT'S ONLY HALF THE EQUATION.

YOU CAN SEND OUT A MESSAGE BUT NOT PICKED UP AND IF EMERGENCY MANAGERS DON'T GET THE INFORMATION THEY NEED.

YOU CAN HAVE THE KINDS OF CONSEQUENCES THAT WE SAW.

ABOUT WHETHER THE FULL CONTINUUM OF FORECAST RESPONSE AND RECOVERY WERE BEING ATTENDED TO IN THE MOST APPROPRIATE AND MOST EFFICIENT MANNER.

>> YEAH.

AND JULIETTE, LISTEN, THERE ARE SO MANY HEROES OUT OF THIS TRAGEDY AND MICHAEL GUYRE WHO ISABEL WAS JUST SPEAKING TO, JUST A VOLUNTEER AND HE'S GOING OUT THIS DOING EVERYTHING HE CAN RISKING HIS OWN LIFE AS SO MANY OTHERS HAVE DONE TO TRY TO FIND SURVIVORS AND WE KNOW THAT MIRACLES HAVE HAPPENED AND THEY HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND MANY SURVIVORS OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW DAYS.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT PERHAPS COULD HAVE BEEN DONE DIFFERENTLY, LESSONS LEARNED.

ONE OF THE WORST TYPES OF FLOODING WE KNOW IS FLOODING THAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLING OF THE NIGHT AND THESE CHILDREN WERE AT CAMPS WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE CELL PHONES SO EVEN IF ALERTS WERE MADE, THEY LIKELY RECEIVED THEM.

SO AS YOU ARE NOW ASSESSING FROM THIS, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAYS YOU HAVE?

>> AND THANK YOU FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY AND, YOU KNOW, AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT RICK SAID.

TO EXAMINE AND STUDY A DISASTER IS SORT OF A REQUIREMENT.

I OFTEN SAY WE OWE IT TO THE DEAD BECAUSE WE NEED TO LEARN WHAT HAPPENED.

NOT FOR BLAME, BUT SO THAT WE'RE BETTER THE NEXT TIME.

AND SO RIGHT NOW, THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE ARE REALLY WHAT RICK WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT SORT OF CONNECTIVITY BETWEEN AN ALERT SYSTEM THAT WE KNEW WAS NOT ONLY GIVING ALERTS, THEY WERE OVERNIGHT, THEY WERE INCREASINGLY PANICKED I HAVE TO SAY.

I MEAN, THEY WERE --THEY WERE SEEN SEEING WHAT YOU WOULD WANT PEOPLE --WHAT YOU WOULD WANT NO AAA OR THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE TO SEE.

THE FLOOD HITS AND THAT SEEMS TO BE GOING AS WELL AS COULD IMAGINE.

IN THIS KIND OF DISASTER.

IT'S THAT CONNECTIVITY BETWEEN THESE ALERTS ARE NOT SELF- EXECUTING.

THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING SIMULTANEOUSLY.

COMMUNITY OUTREACH, LOCAL AND TRIBAL, YOU KNOW, SORT OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OUTREACH.

NOTIFICATIONS NOT JUST THROUGH PHONES, BUT OF COURSE WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SIRENS ALL DAY.

THERE WERE NO SIRENS IN THE COMMUNITY.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHY THAT WAS.

THIS IS --THIS WAS A DEADLY STORM AND IT WAS A UNIQUE STORM.

BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE ONLY STORM.

AND THAT IS --THAT'S WHOO I'M LOOKING AT NOW IS SORT OF THAT GAP IN-BETWEEN WHAT WE KNEW THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE WAS DOING AND THE TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED.

AND IN PARTICULAR, AT ONE PARTICULAR CAMP.

I MEAN, YOU DO --WHEN YOU STUDY DISASTERS, YOU LOOK AT THE POOLS OR THE AREAS WHERE PEOPLE WERE MOST IMPACTED.

CAMP --WERE PEOPLE --WAS IT A WEEKEND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT?

WE DON'T KNOW BUT THOSE ARE THE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS WE HAVE TO ASK AS WE PREPARE FOR MORE CLIMATE DISASTERS.

>> WE KNOW THAT THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ISSUED FLASH FLOOD WARNINGS WITH AT LEAST THREE HOURS' NOTICE.

AGAIN, IF THAT WERE THE CASE YOU ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT MIDNIGHT AND 1:00 IN THE MORNING.

OBVIOUSLY NOT AN IDEAL TIME TO ALERT A COMMUNITY AND HAVE THEM LIVE THEIR HOMES AND SEEK SHELTER BUT I READ THAT LOCAL EMERGENCY OFFICIALS AND THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE GET THEIR INFORMATION FROM FOUR GAUGES ALONG THE GUADALUPE RIVER UPSTREAM FROM COREVILLE.

ONE OF THE FOUR GAUGES OF THE RIVER FAILED LIKELY BECAUSE A WALL OF WATER CAME CRASHING DOWN IN THE EARLY HOURS.

AND HERE'S WHAT ONE EXPERT SAID THAT IS --HAS BEEN STUDYING FLOOD DESIGN PREVENTION FOR YEARS.

HE SAID NO DESIGN, DAM OR FLOOD CAN CONTROL --OR SOLVE THE THREAT POSED BY THE UPPERMOST THIS ONE IS FOR --THIS IS CRYING OUT FOR A NEW WARNING SYSTEM.

STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS ARE NOW RELYING ON THESE GAUGES AND THEY NEED TO DO MORE TO INVEST IN BETTER WARNING SYSTEMS.

HOW FEASIBLE IS THAT, RICK, IN YOUR VIEW?

>> SO NOSE GAUGES ARE PART OF THAT.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE WEATHER SERVICE WAS RELYING ON RADARS AND THEY WERE RELYING ON SATELLITE IMAGERY.

THEY WERE RELYING ON RIVER GAUGES.

AND SO UNTIL THERE'S A DEFINITIVE ANALYSIS OF THE SOURCES OF PROBLEMS, IT'S HARD TO SAY HEY, THIS GAUGE IS WHAT NEEDED TO BE FIXED OR THIS RADAR NEEDED TO BE IMPROVED.

AND SO I THINK WE NEED TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT THE ANALYSIS SHOWS US WITH RESPECT TO WHAT PARTS OF THE OBSERVATIONAL SYSTEMS FOR WORKING AND WHAT ELEMENTS NEED TO BE IMPROVED BUT AGAIN I WOULD POINT OUT THE FORECASTS WERE REALLY WELL DONE WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT HOW MUCH RAIN WAS FORECASTED BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THE OBSERVATIONS SUPPORTED THE PREDICTIONS VERY WELL.

>> YEAH, THE KERR COUNTY JUDGE ROBERT KELLY ON FRIDAY CALLED THE RIVER QUOTE THE MOST DANGEROUS RIVER VALLEY IN THE UNITED STATES AND GIVEN THAT, JULIETTE, JUST WONDERING WHAT YOU THINK LOOKING BACK OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FOUR DAYS, WHAT --WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE DIFFERENTLY WITH THESE FORECASTS AND I MEAN LISTEN, IT'S NOT LIKE FORECASTING A HURRICANE.

WHERE YOU HAVE DAYS TO PREPARE.

IF YOU EVEN HAVE HOURS TO PREPARE FOR INSTITUTIONS LIKE THESE CAMP SITES, FOR HOMEOWNERS THERE, WHAT CAN BE DONE GOING FORWARD KNOWING THEY MAY HAVE LIMITED TIME BUT THEY STALE HAVE TIME TO DO SOMETHING?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK ON THE SPECIFIES RIGHT?

SO --IS THE SIREN SYSTEM.

I MEAN, IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE NEED TO GET PEOPLE TO QUICKLY WAKE UP GET MOVING, IT'S --FLASH FLOODING IS A LOT LIKE TORNADOES IN THAT SENSE.

IT'S NOT LIKE HURRICANES.

IT IS --YOU WANT THINGS GOING OFF THAT ARE TELLING PEOPLE MOVE AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN.

THE SECOND IS WHAT YOU MIGHT JUST CALL SORT OF THE SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES OR SPECIAL AREAS.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CAMPS WITH CHILDREN ALL ALONG THIS RIVER.

UNDERSTANDING THIS NOW.

WHAT KIND OF ALERT SYSTEM WOULD YOU WANT FOR THEM GIVEN THEIR POPULATION AND YOUNGER KIDS AND PEOPLE WITHOUT PHONES AND THEN YOU WANT TO SORT OF UPGRADE IN TERMS OF COMMUNICATIONS AND THIS MAY ALSO BE TRUE OF --OF VISITORS OR VACATIONERS WHO MAY NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THE ALERT SYSTEMS AND APPS THAT OTHERS MAY HAVE.

MORE GENERALLY, I DO HOPE AND I LOOK FOR SILVER LININGS EVEN IN THESE TRAGEDIES, IT GETS US COMMITTED TO A SYSTEM OF PREPAREDNESS AND EARLY RESPONSE.

A SYSTEM THAT'S UNDER STRESS NOW.

BUDGET CHANGE, YOU KNOW, WAS AT PLAY HERE.

BUT IN REALITY, WE DO KNOW AND YOU KNOW, NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NOAA AND FEMA ARE ALL UNDER STRESS AND SOME FEMA HAS THREATENED GO AWAY.

BY THE PRESIDENT.

WE NEED TO COMMIT TO A PREPAREDNESS EARLY ALERT APPARATUS.

I HAVE BEEN SAYING IT'S LIKE INTELLIGENCE IN WAR.

THESE ARE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.

YOU WOULDN'T GO TO WAR WITHOUT YOUR DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE OR YOUR CIA TELLING YOU WHAT'S GOING ON ON THE GROUND.

WE HAVE THE THINK OF THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AND NOAA AS INTELLIGENCE TO PROTECT OUR CITIZENS AND, YOU KNOW, PROTECT OUR CHILDREN.

>> AND RICK, I MEAN, TWO THINGS CAN BE RIGHT AT THE SAME TIME.

YOU CAN HAVE SORT OF THESE UNEXPECTED FLOODING-TYPE OF EVENTS, ONCE EVERY HUNDRED YEARS OR IN THIS CASE WE'RE STARTING TO SEE MORE AND MORE OF THEM GIVEN WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THEN YOU COUPLE THAT WITH CUTS THAT WE'VE SEEN TO TO NOAA AND AGAIN, WITHOUT GETTING TOO POLITICAL HERE, I'M JUST WONDERING OBJECTIVELY YOUR FIRST QUESTIONS AS YOU HEAR ABOUT SOME OF THESE CUTS.

YOU HAVE THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE THAT'S BEEN CUT BY PERSONNEL --PERSONNEL CUTS UNDER THE PRESIDENT.

THE LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE'S EMPLOYEES' UNION TOLD CNN WHILE HE BELIEVES THE OFFICE HAD ADEQUATE STAFFING AND RESOURCES, WE KNOW THE AUSTIN, SAN ANTONIO OFFICE IS MISSING A WARNING COORDINATION METEOROLOGIST.

SO JUST TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT POTENTIAL LAPSES HAVE BEEN EXPOSED HERE EVEN MORE SO WITH THESE CUTS.

>> THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT AND IN FACT, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I WONDERED WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT WAS WHAT ARE THE WCMs DOING?

THE WARNING COORDINATION METEOROLOGISTS?

AND LEARNED THAT IN FACT THE AUSTIN SAN ANTONIO OFFICE WAS WITHOUT THEM.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE AGENCY ALMOST 20% OF THE WEATHER SERVICE STAFFING HAS BEEN REDUCED.

SO CONSEQUENTLY, YOU KNOW, DOESN'T MATTER HOW GOOD THESE HEROES ARE AT PLACES LIKE THE WEATHER SERVICE OR FEMA.

IF WE HAVE ONLY 80% OF THE REQUIRED STAFFING TO DO THE JOB, THINGS GOING TO SUFFER AND THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT THE WEATHER SERVICE STAFF CUTS LIKELY CONTRIBUTED TO THE INABILITY OF EMERGENCY MANAGERS TO RESPOND WITH NO W CM, THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN COORDINATE WITH THE EMERGENCY MANAGERS.

>> NOAA OFFICIAL WE SHOULD NOTE DEFENDED THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE FORECAST AND SAID THE DISASTER ULTIMATELY RESULTED FROM TOO MUCH RAIN IN TOO SHORT A PERIOD OF TIME.

AND JULIETTE, THAT LEADS ME TO MY QUESTION TO YOU.

YOU KNOW, CONSTANTLY WE HEAR REFRAIN OF WE WILL REBUILD AS A SIGN OF RESILIENCE AFTER SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

BUT SHOULD WE BE ASKING OURSELVES THE QUESTION OF SHOULD REREBUILD IN SOME OF THESE LOCATIONS WHICH HAVE PROVEN TO BE MORE AND MORE VULNERABLE TO MOTHER NATURE AND CHANGES GIVEN CLIMATE CHANGE?

>> SO --RIGHT, IT'S TRUE.

I MEAN, THIS IS A HUGE DEBATE RIGHT NOW AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT BOTH DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY HEADS FEMA HEADS, AS WELL AS THOSE OF US IN THE FIELD, CAN ALL AGREE ON.

WHICH IS WE ARE AT THIS STAGE WHERE AS WE LOOK TO COMMUNITIES TO REBUILD, WE MAY WANT TO BEGIN TO RETHINK HOW THEY REBUILD.

IT'S --YOU KNOW, BUILD BACK BETTER SORT OF ASSUMES THAT YOU ARE NOT MAKING SIGNIFICANT CHANGES.

SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES WILL.

THIS MAY BE AS SIMPLE AS, YOU KNOW, REQUIRING THE LOCALITY TO HAVE SIRENS IN THIS CASE.

OR NOT LETTING THEM BUILD OR HOST TEMPORARY CAMPS.

THESE CAMPS ARE TEMPORARY IN THE SENSE THAT THERE'S NOT PEOPLE IN THEM AT ALL TIMES.

THAT CLOSE TO THE RIVER.

SO WE SHOULD NOT --THERE ARE --THERE ARE SOLUTIONS THAT ARE REQUIRE THEM.

AND I THINK IT'S TIME --THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RIGHT, TO BEGIN TO LOOK TO RECOVERING MONEY TO MAKE US STRONGER.

>> WELL, HE WILL BE VISITING THE REGION LATER ON THIS WEEK HE SAID AND OF COURSE OUR THOUGHTS ARE WITH THE FAMILIES OF THOSE WHO ARE STILL MISSING AND SADLY THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SURVIVED THESE CATASTROPHIC FLOODS.

RICK AND JULIETTE.

>>> THANK YOU.

>>> MARIE CURIE TO TAYLOR SWIFT, WHAT ACTUALLY MAKES A GENIUS?

AND WHY ARE WE SO ATTACHED TO THE TERM?

THAT'S THE SUBJECT OF JOURNALIST AND ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER HELEN LEWIS' LATEST BOOK.

AND SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN.

>> Reporter: THANK YOU AND HELEN LEWIS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR BOOK IS CALLED THE GENIUS MYTH.

LET'S START WITH THAT.

WHY IS IT A MYTH AND WHY IN YOUR SUBTITLE DO YOU CALL IT DANGEROUS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING I SHOULD SAVE IS GENIUS IS NOT --WHAT I DO THINK HAPPENS IS THAT WE END UP WRITING STORIES AROUND THEM.

THE TEMPLATES REALLY WE KIND OF JAM REAL LIFE HUMAN STORIES INTO.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF ME MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLES IS SOMEBODY LIKE SHAKESPEARE.

UNDOUBTLY INCREDIBLY GIFTED PLAYWRIGHT BUT WHEN HE DIED HE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED AS THE SHAKESPEARE WE KNOW TODAY.

HE WAS, YOU KNOW, A WELL RESPECTED PLAYWRIGHT AND IT TOOK A LOT OF PEOPLE OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT TWO CENTURIES TO BUILD UP THE MYTH.

THE LEGEND OF THIS KIND OF THE BARD OF AVON AND TO MAKE HIM INTO THE FIGURE THAT HE IS NOW.

>> Reporter: ONE OF THOSE MYTH MAKERS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THIS WONDERFUL BIOGRAPHER.

ESPECIALLY OF RENAISSANCE AND OF MICHELANGELO AND LEONARDO.

AND OTHERS.

ONE OF THE THINGS HE WRITES ABOUT LEONARDO da VINCI IS HE WAS TOUCHED BY GOD WITH HIS INCREDIBLE TALENTS AS IF HE AB ANOINTED AND WHEN I WROTE ABOUT HIM.

I GO NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

THIS GUY WASN'T NECESSARILY A GENIUS DIFFERENT FROM EVERYBODY ELSE.

BUT HE WORKED HARDER AND HE -- HE TAUGHT HIMSELF.

HE READ BOOKS.

HE DID EXPERIMENTS.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS GENIUS INNATE THE WAY HE SAYS AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU HAVE TO WORK AT IT?

>> I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE --WHO START OFF WITH A PARTICULAR TALENT.

BUT YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO DO WITH THAT TALENT IS PART OF IT AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THE RESEARCH DOES BAR OUT IS LOTS OF PEOPLE AND LOTS OF MILITARY LEADERS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE WE WOULD SAY ARE GENIUSES HAD A BROKEN OR UNHAPPY CHILDHOOD AND THAT GAVE THEM SOME SORT OF INTERNAL ENGINE THAT DROVE THEM TO SUCCEED.

I THINK WHAT YOU FOUND RESEARCHING HIM IS BORNE OUT BRING SO MANY OTHER CASES AND YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO HAS AN APTITUDE.

BUT THEY ALSO HAVE THIS KIND OF DRIVE IN THEM THAT TAKES THEM PAST OTHER PEOPLE AND ALSO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS UNDERRATED IS THEY HAVE TO BE WILLING DO DEAL WITH ENVY.

THEY HAVE TO BE WILLING TO BE DIFFERENT AND NOT EVERYBODY ACTUALLY FINDS THAT PARTICULARLY COMFORTABLE.

>> JR. YOU BEGIN AND END THE BOOK WITH ELON MUSK AND YOU HAVE THAT PROBLEM WE ALL HAVE, I HAVE BEEN THERE.

OF PEOPLE WANTING IT TO BE BINARY WHICH IS --OH, HE'S A GENIUS.

OH NO.

HE'S A TOTAL IDIOT AND JUST STOLE EVERYTHING.

WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS NONBINARY THING.

EXPLAIN THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE GENIUS MYTH.

>> YEAH, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS IS MY IDEA THAT GENIUSES YOU KNOW, ANOINTING SOMEBODY A GENIUS IS OFTEN A KIND OF POLITICAL ARGUMENT BEHIND IT.

AND ELON MUSK IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT.

YOU KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO CHAMPIONED HIM OFTEN SEE HIM AS THIS KIND OF SUPERMAN YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF AMERICAN DREAM OF SOMEBODY WHO JUST HAD THIS EXCEPTIONAL DRIVE AND TALENT AND MADE IT ON THEIR OWN.

THEN PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT MUCH AND MUCH MORE STRESS THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW,, THE INFLUENCE OF SOCIETY AND THE FACT THE SUPPORT HE GOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

FOR HIS BUSINESSES.

OR THEY WANT TO DEBUNK HIM ENTIRELY BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE HIS POLITICS AND THEREFORE THEY FEEL THAT CHAMPIONING HIM IS A BUSINESSMAN IS KIND OF EXTENSION OF CHAMPIONING HIS POLITICS.

SO MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE GENIUSES, THERE ARE SOME KIND OF ARGUMENT GOING ON ABOUT THE ASSESSMENT OF THEM.

YOU KNOW, THAT CAN BE IN THE CASE OF PERHAPS SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE --ARGUMENT FOR ONE CITY IN ITALY OVER ANOTHER CITY.

IT COULD BE AN ARGUMENT IN THE CASE OF SHAKESPEARE FOR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEING THE MOST BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD.

SO YOU KNOW ENDS UP KIND OF CONSCRIPTING THESE PEOPLE INTO THIS WIDER MYTHOLOGY.

BUT I REALLY LIKED ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID ABOUT MUSK IN THE BOOK.

WHICH WAS THAT THE WAY TO UNDERSTAND HIM REALLY APART FROM ANYTHING ELSE AS A RISK TAKER.

THAT DOES GIVE YOU GOOD INSIGHT INTO THE FANG THERE'S --THEY CALL IT THE TEXAS SHARP SHOOTER POLICY.

YOU FIRE AT A BARN DOOR AND THEN DRAW A CIRCLE AROUND IT.

HE'S THE RUN RISK TAKER FOR WHOM THE RISK CAME OFF.

THAT AGAIN WE LOOK AT THE TRY AND WORK BACK.

MAYBE THAT ISN'T YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE'S A VERSION OF HIM FOR WHOM ONE OF THOSE REALLY BIG GAMBLES DIDN'T COME OFF AND WE'RE SIMPLY NEVER GOING TO HEAR ABOUT THEM.

>> Reporter: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS TO GENIUSES IN YOUR BOOK, IT'S ALL ME PHENOMENON, IS THEY GET SORT OF INTOXICATED AS LEONARD USED TO SAY, THEY LOVE THE SMELL OF THEIR OWN PERFUME.

HOW OFTEN DOES THAT HAPPEN TO GENIUSES AND IS THAT A PROBLEM YOU SEE WITH ELON MUSK?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT DOES HAPPEN.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU JUST THINK YOU ARE A SPECIAL PERSON, YOU DON'T START TO THINK I'M TALENTED PERSON WHO IS LUCKY TO HAVE THESE PEOPLE AROUND ME AND BE UNDER THESE SOCIAL CONDITIONS.

YOU THINK I CAN TRANSFER THIS ANYWHERE.

AND I DO THINK MUSK IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT AND YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY THAT PEOPLE OFTEN DOWNPLAY HIS EARLIER ACHIEVEMENTS BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE HIS POM TICKS AND ACTUALLY I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO DO THAT TO SAY THAT THEY ARE EXCITING COMPANIES BUT TO THINK THE PRIVATE SECTOR INTO PUBLIC SECTOR AND GOVERNMENT WHOLESALE WAS HUBRIS YOU KNOW.

THAT WAS --I THINK A MISTAKE.

AND SURE ENOUGH, IT RAN INTO TROUBLE BECAUSE IT'S A LOT HARDER TO MAKE THINGS WORK IN A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS TO SERVE EVERYBODY THEN YOU KNOW,NY YOU ARE RUNNING A CAR COMPANY YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL TO A PARTICULAR SEGMENT.

I JUST SAW A SIMILAR THING EARLIER THAT SAM ALTMAN OF OpenAI WRITTEN.

THIS MANIFESTO FOR ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE AND HE SAID ONE OF THE WAYS WE CAN TELL WE'RE NOT SUPER INTELLIGENCE YET IS WE HAVE NOT CURED ALL DISEASES.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY KIND OF FASCINATING TO ME BECAUSE IT'S IMPLYING THAT CURING ALL DISEASES IS PURELY A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM.

AND NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST FIVE YEARS THE mRNA VACCINE, THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE BREAKTHROUGH IN SCIENCE.

BUT GUESS WHAT?

LOTS OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT THAT VACCINE BECAUSE THEY DON'T TRUST VACCINES OR BIG PHARMA.

SO TO THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD THINK THAT SOLVING DISEASE IS ONLY A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM VERSION OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABILITY THE GENIUS MYTH.

YOU NEED PEOPLE TO ADVOCATE FOR TREATMENTS AND YOU NEED DELIVERY SYSTEMS TO GET THE TREATMENTS TO THEM.

ALL THE STUFF AROUND THAT'S ABOUTSET AND POLITICS BUT BECAUSE PEOPLE GET SO INTO THEIR LANE THEY DON'T NECESSARILY LOOK AND SEE THE FULL PICTURE.

>> OKAY.

LET'S TAKE PAUL AND JOHN.

YOU KNOW, PAUL McCARTNEY AND JOHN LENNON AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT COLLECTIVE GENIUS BECAUSE MAYBE IT'S ONLY WHEN YOU PUT THESE TWO STAR SYSTEMS TOGETHER THAT YOU GET GENIUS.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY LOVELY IDEA AND IT WOULD --PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MORE AWARE OF IT WOULD HELP THEM DEEM WITH THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE A KIND OF HOT STREAK AND DOESN'T LAST FOREVER.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT DOES MAKE PEOPLE VULNERABLE TO THINK IT'S NOT ALL YOU YOU KNOW.

YOU NEED SOMEONE ELSE WHETHER IT'S THERE'S A MUSE OR A BRILLIANT MANAGER OR YOUR SONG WRITING PARTNER.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNOW, IT'S YOUR ILLUSTRATOR AND YOU ARE THE WRITER.

WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

BUT I THINK THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BEING QUITE POISONOUS BECAUSE PEOPLE DO START THINKING IT'S ALL ME AND EVERYBODY ELSE BECOMES A KIND OF SUPPORTING CHARACTER AND THEY'RE THE PROTAGONIST OF REALITY.

>> WELL, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE BEATLES.

I REMEMBER STEVE JOBS WHO WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT GENIUS AT ONE POINT.

SITTING THERE IN HIS LIVING ROOM AND HE'S PLAYING THE BOOTLEG TAPES OF JOHN AND PAUL TRYING TO GET STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER RIGHT.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND HE SAID TO ME, IT WAS NOT JUST GENIUS, IT WAS TWO PEOPLE ITERATING.

WORKING WITHEACH OTHER UNTIL THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

>> THAT'S REALLY BEAUTIFUL I THINK AND I THINK IT --ALMOST SCARES PEOPLE BECAUSE IT MAKES IT SEEM EVEN MORE RANDOM AND UNPREDICTABLE.

I THINK IF YOU WATCHED GET BACK THAT WONDERFUL PETER JACKSON DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE BEATLES, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT --BEAUTIFUL DOCUMENTARY.

IT IS IN PLACES ALMOST BORING BECAUSE YOU ARE WATCHING GENUINELY HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR THEM TO SIT THERE AND NOODLE AROUND ON STUFF AND SET UP THE BACK WHICH IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE BEATLE SONGS SORT OF JUST EMERGES OUT OF PAUL'S FINGERS ON IN GUITAR.

YOU ARE WATCHING THAT PROCESS OF SOMEONE PUTTING THEMSELVES INTO THE CREATIVE STATE WHERE A MOMENT OF GENIUS CAN STRIKE.

BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU CANNOT FORCE IT.

AND NEITHER, YOU KNOW, McCARTNEY OR LENNON EVER WROTE AS WELL WITH OTHER PEOPLE AS THEY DID JUST THE TWO OF THEM.

SO CLEARLY THERE WAS A BURNING INTENSITY OF RELATIONSHIP.

WHICH WAS FINITE WHICH ONLY LASTED FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES IN YOUR BOOK IS WHY ARE GENIUSES SO OFTEN JERKS AS WE'VE SAID AND ARCHEUSED AN EXAMPLE I WROTE ABOUT WHICH IS STEVE WOZNIAK THE PARTNER OF STEVE JOBS AT @ BEGINNING OF MY REPORTING SORT OF SAID YOU HAVE TO ASK DID HE HAVE TO BE SO MEAN?

I ASKED WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

HE SAID I WOULD HAVE BEEN NICER BUT IF I HAD RUN APPLE WE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN TO THE iPhone.

TELL ME TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU HAVE TO BE A JERK IN ORDER TO >> I REALLY STRUGGLE WITH THAT BECAUSE AGAIN, I WONDER IF WE JUST --YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A SORT OF SAMPLING BIAS OF HEARING ABOUT IT BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL INNATELY THAT'S KIND OF THAT SHOULD BE HOW IT WORKS.

ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING DISCOVERIES FOR ME AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS DUH FOUND THIS IN YOUR REPORTING ABOUT THESE KIND OF BIG FIGURES.

IS HOW MUCH THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM GET FROM THIS EXCHANGE.

THERE'S A VERY SIMPLE STORY WE TELL OF A KIND OF STOCKHOLM SYNDROME WHERE PEOPLE ARE AROUND A BRILLIANT JERK AND THEIR LIVES ARE MISERABLE.

BUT THE FUNNY THING TO ME WAS FINDING OUT HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN TO DO THAT.

THEY COULD WALK AWAY.

THE.

FOR ME THE EXAMPLE WAS THE WIFE OF LEO TOLSTOY THE RUSSIAN NOVELIST.

SHE HATED HIM AND SAID SHE WAS CONSTANTLY PREGNANT AND HE WAS PLUNDERING HER LIFE FOR HIS NOVELS BUT WHEN IN MIDDLE AGE HE DRIFTED AWAY FROM HER, AND HE HAD A NEW PRIMARY RELATIONSHIP IN HIS LIFE; THIS VERY STRONG FRIENDSHIP WITH A YOUNG MILITARY OFFICER.

SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATED.

SO, YOU KNOW, SHE WROTE IN HER DIARY ABOUT THE FACT SHE WAS SUPPRESSING HER OWN CREATIVETIVE AND GENIUS IN THE SERVICE OF THIS GREAT MAN BUT WHEN HE WAS TAKEN AWAY SHE WAS HEARTBROKEN BY IT AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING THING.

IS THAT YES, ONE OF THE THINGS IS MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE BEING AROUND THE BRILLIANT JERKS BECAUSE THEY FEEL SOMETHING BIG IS HAPPENING AND IF THEY'RE SACRIFICING THERE'S SOMETHING EXCITE GOING ON.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING I DIDN'T EXPECT WHEN I WENT INTO WRITING THIS.

>> YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY EXAMPLES I THINK OF A WOMAN WHO IS CONSIDERED A GENIUS.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME THAT WOULD I THINK ENTER THE CANON.

THAT MARIE CURIE FOR EXAMPLE THE CHEMIST WOULD BE ONE EXAMPLE.

TAYLOR SWIFT NOW.

BUT YOU HAVE TO BE VERY HONEST AND I SAY THIS SOMEONE WHO'S WRITTEN A FEMINIST HISTORY THAT OUR CANON OF GENIUSES IS REALLY MALE.

AND NOW THE INTERESTING QUESTION BECOMES IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS BIOLOGICAL OR SOCIAL?

AND I THINK THE JURY IS OUT.

THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT MEN ARE ON AVERAGE MORE AMBITIOUS AND THEY ARE MORE WILLING TO SACRIFICE FAMILY AND DOMESTIC LIFE FOR THEIR CAREERS AND THEY'RE MORE WILLING TO BE SELFISH IN THOSE CAREERS BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT SOCIETY TRADITIONALLY MADE IT MUCH EASIER FOR THEM.

THE THING THAT'S EASY TOO FORGET NOW, YOU KNOW, SITTING HERE IN 2025, IS JUST THE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF BARRIERS THERE HAVE BEEN TO PEOPLE WHO WERE EXCLUDED FROM THE CATEGORY OF GENIUS.

YOU KNOW, IN BRITAIN, WHERE LIVE, WOMEN COULDN'T GO TO UNIVERSITY UNTIL 150 YEARS AGO.

YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED IN THE BOOK, EXTRAORDINARY PHYSICIST, SHE WON THE HUGHES MEDAL FROM THE ROSS SOCIETY BUT SHE WAS NOT ALLOWED TO JOIN THE ROSS SOCIETY.

SO THESE PLACE -- >> Reporter: SHE WAS A VERY CLOSE FRIEND OF MARIE CURIE WHO ALSO WON THE MEDAL.

>> RIGHT.

ONLY INHERITED HER PROFESSORSHIP WHEN PIERRE DIED.

YOU ARE NOT BEING IN THE PLACE EXCITING DISCUSSIONS ARE HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY THE SAME THING FROM THE EXCLUSION OF BLACK AMERICANS FROM LARGER PARTS OF THE ACADEMY OR ACTUALLY THE WAY THAT THE IVY LEAGUE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST JEWISH AMERICANS IN THE EARLY PART OF THE 20s SEARCHRY.

IT WANTED TO TRY TO PRESERVE THE KIND OF WASPY NATURE OF THE INSTITUTIONS.

THROUGH TIME YOU GET HUGE NUMBERS OF OF CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE HAVE THESE IMMENSE LEGAL SOCIAL BARRIERS PUT IN THEIR WAY.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THAT WILL CHANGE.

I AM NOT ENTIRELY SURE THAT IT WILL COMPLETELY CHANGE BECAUSE I THINK WE ARE MORE HAPPY TO LOOK UP TO MEN AND A LOT OF THIS IS ABOUT US THE KIND OF CROWD AND THE HERO WORSHIP OF THE CROWD.

MAYBE MORE MEN WHO ARE MORE WILLING TO CLIMB ON THE PEDESTAL BUT ALSO MORE COMFORTABLE WITH MEN DOING THAT.

DON'T MAYBE TAKE IT SO WELL WHEN WOMEN ARE OVERTLY AMBITIOUS AND DRIVEN IN THE WAY YOU HAVE TO BE TO BE CALLED A GENIUS.

>> Reporter: THE 250th ANNIVERSARY AND YOU LOOK AT THE TRUE GENIUSES, I THINK MADISON AND JEFFERSON PROBABLY COUNT.

AND YOU LOOK AT THE PASSION OF PEOPLE LIKE JOHN AND SAMUEL ADAMS WHO FIT IN THAT CATEGORY.

BUT THE PERSON WHO'S THE GLUE IS THE BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

HE'S NOT THE SENATOR --HE'S NOT THE GENIUS THERE BUT HE'S THE WISEST.

HOW IMPORTANT IS WISDOM LIKE THAT COMPARED TO GENIUS?

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

BECAUSE I HAVE NOT EVER REALLY THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT BUT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, TOO MANY GIANT EGOS IN ONE PLACE CAN BE EXCITING BUT ALSO BE INTENSELY COMBUSTIBLE AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME THIS COMPARISON EVER BEEN MADE BUT I WONDER TO SOME EXTENT IF HE IS LIKE RINGO STARR.

IN THE GET BACK SESSIONS.

EVERYONE JUSTLIKES HAVING HIM AROUND AND ACTUALLY YOU ARE RIGHT.

HE'S THE GLUE.

HE'S THE RIGHT FIT FOR THE OTHER KIND OF COMBUSTIBLE PERSONALITIES THAT HOLDS THE WHOLE THING TOGETHER.

AND I THINK WE CAN OFTEN UNDERRATE THOSE PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DEMANDING TO BE PUSHING TO THE FRONT AND BEING A PROTAGONIST.

THINK THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING AND YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE'S A REALLY INTERESTING INTERPLAY BETWEEN KNOWLEDGE AND ORIGINAL THINKING.

AND LOTS OF THE STUDIES OF CREATIVITY LOOKED AT OVER A LIFETIME AND IT'S TRUE THAT SOME THINGS DO SEEM TO PEAK EARLY.

MATHEMATICIANS REALLY DO PEAK EARLY BUT FOR LOTS OF OTHER PROFESSIONS ACTUALLY BUILDING UP KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD.

BUT AGAIN SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO WORK INTERGENERATIONALLY.

YOU WOULD WANT TO WORK IN A LAB WHERE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER AND THEN YOU HAVE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE YOUNGER AND WHO DON'T HAVE ANY PRECONCEPTIONS AND WHO DON'T KNOW THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE.

I THINK AGAIN, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO SET UP, YOU KNOW, COMPANIES, THAT'S THE REALLY INTERESTING THING TO THINK ABOUT.

ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE THE BEST SILICON VALLEY COMPANY IF IT'S EVERYBODY IN SIT IS A 30-YEAR- OLD WITH THE SAME LIFE EXPERIENCE OR MORE INTERESTING TO HAVE SOME 60-YEAR-OLDS AROUND?

I WONDER IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT KIND OF GETS MISSED.

>> Reporter: AS WE ENTER THIS ERA OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, DO YOU THINK MACHINES GENIUSES AND WHAT CAN THAT QUEST TEACH US ABOUT GENIUS?

>> I --I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS A LOT.

BECAUSE CLEARLY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEVELOPED VERY QUICKLY VERY INTENSE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH AIs.

BUT I SORT OF --I GO BACK TO THERE'S AN INTERESTING PAPER WHICH SHOWED PEOPLE POETRY WRITTEN BY AI AND THEY FOUND OUT THE PEOPLE RATED THE AI POETRY HIGHER THAN THE HUMAN POETRY OR YOU KNOW, THEY THOUGHT IT WAS AS GOOD AS IT BECAUSE AI CAN DO A VERY CONVINCING IMITATION OF WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE.

BUT WHEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY AN AI THEY CHANGED THEIR MINDS AND THEY LIKED IT LESS.

>> ALLAN TOURING IN THE PAPER THOUGH SAYS BUT MAYBE A SONNET WRITTEN BY A COMPUTER IS SOMETHING ONLY ANOTHER COMPUTER CAN FULLY APPRECIATE.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> WHAT WERE THE OUTLIERS.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK THERE'S --PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THE BIOGRAPHIES OF FAMOUS PEOPLE, AND INNOVATIVE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DRIVES PEOPLEMAD ABOUT SHAKESPEARE.

MAYBE IT'S THE EARL OF OXFORD OR A WOMAN BECAUSE THEY KIND OF CAN'T LIVE WITH THE IDEA THAT THERE'S THIS HUGE BODY OF WORK AND WE DON'T HAVE EVERYTHING THAT WE NEED --WE WANT TO ME ABOUT THE PERSON BEHIND IT AND THAT TO ME, I THINK THERE'S THAT DESIRE TO READ A NOVEL AND FEEL THAT WE'RE CONNECTING WITH ANOTHER BRAIN ACROSS TIME THAT THESE ARE HUMAN EMOTIONS.

AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BIT THAT --THAT'S THE PITA AI CAN'T REPLACE IS THAT FEELING OF --MAYBE IT'S, YOU KNOW, ALL A FACADE AND MAYBE WE'RE DELUDING OURSELVES BUT I THINK WE WANT IT.

>> IS THERE SOME USEFULNESS TO THE CONCEPT OF GENIUS?

ISN'T IT SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY IS GOOD FOR US TO HAVE?

>> THAT'S --I THINK THAT'S TRUE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE MAYBE A BIT MORE TOLERANCE FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT NEURODIVERGENCE FOR EXAMPLE, THINK THE CONCEPT OF GENIUS REALLY HELPS WITH THAT OR PEOPLE WHO MAYBE STRUGGLE WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA OR BIPOLAR DISORDER.

THEY'RE DIFFICULT TO BE AROUND BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE USELESS AND THEY CANNOT CONTRIBUTE.

I THINK GENIUS HELPED THE CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE.

BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED THAT SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T GET ONE THING WITHOUT ANOTHER.

I THINK STEPHEN FRY TALKED ABOUT LIVING WITH BIPOLAR.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, THE LOWS ARE REALLY, REALLY BAD BUT THE HIGHS ARE INCREDIBLE AND I FEEL SO PRODUCTIVE.

I CAN'T REALLY IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE WITHOUT IT.

SO I THINK THAT --IN ITS BEST FORM, THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE NORM CAN EXPRESS ITSELF AS GENIUS AND HELPS US TO LIVE AND BE A BIT MORE FLEXIBLE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS INSIDE THEM BUT THEY ALSO DEMAND A LEVEL OF TOLERANCE FROM OTHER PEOPLE.

>> HELEN LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, AMID TRAGEDY A REMINDER OF THE EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN CAPACITY TO HELP.

SCOTT RUSKIN A MEMBER OF THE COAST GUARD IS BEING HAILED A HERO AFTER SAVING 165 PEOPLE FLOODS.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE TOLD ABC NEWS THIS MORNING.

>> KIND OF ENCOUNTERED PRETTY SERIOUS WEATHER.

SOME OF THE WORST FLYING WE'VE EVER DEALT WITH PERSONALLY.

IT PROBABLY TOOK US ABOUT SEVEN OR EIGHT HOURS FOR THE FLIGHT.

ITS THE MAIN GUY AS FAR AS LIKE GRABBING PEOPLE.

MAYBE ONE ADULT WITH THEM.

THIS IS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE BURREL JUST KIND OF RELIED ON THE TRAINING WE GET.

WE GET THE HIGHEST LEVEL TRAINING IN THE WORLD.

SO REALLY JUST KIND OF RELIED ON THAT AND THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST KNOWING THAT ANY OF THE RESCUE SWIMMERS IN THE COAST GUARD WOULD'VE DONE THE EXACT SAME IF NOT BETTER THAN ME.

>> A BIG THANK YOU TO EVERYBODY GIVING THEIR ALL TO RESCUE MISSIONS.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.