♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AN EXCLUSIVE FROM TEHRAN AS TRUMP WEIGHS JOINING NETANYAHU'S WAR, I REACH IRAN'S DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> IF THE AMERICANS DECIDE TO GET INVOLVED MILITARILY, WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RETALIATE, WHETHER WE FIND THE TARGETS NECESSARY TO BE ACTED UPON.

>> THEN AMIDST THE TURMOIL IN THE MIDDLE EAST THE UKRAINE WAR KEEPS RAGING ON AND I TALK TO THE RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UK, ANDREI KELIN.

>> WE WILL CONTINUE THIS DRIVE AND UKRAINE WILL HAVE TO SURRENDER UNDER MUCH WORSE CONDITIONS THAN THEY ARE -- THAT WE ARE PROPOSING RIGHT NOW.

>> PLUS, AS GAZA DESCENDS FURTHER INTO HELL, PALESTINIAN-AMERICAN POET HALA AYAN TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IDENTITY, MOTHERHOOD AND THE EXPERIENCE OF EXILE.

♪ >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

I MAY DO IT, I MAY NOT DO IT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, URGED ON BY ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER, IS BRINGING THE UNITED STATES TO THE EDGE OF WAR WITH IRAN.

>> I MEAN, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT I'M GOING TO EVEN DO IT.

YOU DON'T KNOW.

I MAY DO IT.

I MAY NOT DO IT.

I MEAN, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.

I CAN TELL YOU THIS, THAT IRAN'S GOT A LOT OF TROUBLE.

AND THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE.

AND I SAID WHY DIDN'T YOU NEGOTIATE WITH ME BEFORE?

ALL THIS DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

WHY DIDN'T YOU -- I SAID TO THE PEOPLE.

WHY DIDN'T YOU NEGOTIATE WITH ME TWO WEEKS AGO?

>> BUT WHETHER HE DECIDES TO ACTUALLY PULL THAT TRIGGER NOBODY KNOWS.

RESIDENTS OF TEHRAN, CALLED UPON TO EVACUATE, ARE AFRAID, MIRED IN TRAFFIC GRIDLOCK WITHOUT ENOUGH GASOLINE FOR THEIR VEHICLES, AS ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SOW CHAOS AND DESTRUCTION, EVEN AMONGST THE CIVILIANS WHO ARE DESPERATE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

ALSO HITTING LEADERSHIP TARGETS AND NUCLEAR SITES.

IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER, AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, REJECTED TRUMP'S CALL FOR UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER IN A TAPED VIDEO MESSAGE, AIRED ON STATE TV.

>> Translator: SURRENDER TO WHAT?

THE IRANIAN NATION CANNOT BE SURRENDERED.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN SUBJECTED TO ANYONE, AND WE WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY KIND OF SUBMISSION.

AND WE WILL NOT SUBMIT TO ANYONE'S SUBMISSION.

THIS IS THE LOGIC OF THE IRANIAN NATION.

THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF THE IRANIAN NATION.

>> SO NOW A RARE CHANCE TO HEAR FROM A HIGH-LEVEL IRANIAN OFFICIAL.

MAJID TAKHT-RAVANCHI IS THE DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER AND IS A KEY PLAYER IN THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS THAT WERE.

HE JOINED ME FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW FROM TEHRAN.

>> DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER RAVANCHI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> OKAY.

TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON.

WHAT HAS BEEN DAMAGED?

HOW CLOSE TO YOUR HEADQUARTERS?

WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME EXACTLY ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

>> WE HAVE BEEN WITNESSING AN ACT OF AGGRESSION, A CLEAR CASE OF NAKED AGGRESSION AGAINST IRAN AND THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, SINCE FIVE, SIX DAYS AGO.

WE WERE ABOUT TO START NEW ROUNDS, NEW ROUND OF TALKS WITH THE AMERICANS ON SUNDAY.

THAT WAS 15th OF JUNE.

AND TWO DAYS BEFORE WE WERE ATTACKED BY THE ISRAELIS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

THEY ATTACKED RESIDENTIAL AREAS.

THEY ATTACKED PARAMEDICS.

THEY ATTACKED, YOU KNOW, CITIZENS WHO ARE JUST SLEEPING IN THEIR HOMES.

THEY ATTACKED OUR UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS.

SO THIS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, PURE AND SIMPLE.

>> OKAY.

SO MR. RAVANCHI, THEY ALSO ATTACKED YOUR MILITARY LEADERSHIP, YOUR INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS WE UNDERSTAND NOW HAS BEEN HIT FOR THE DOMESTIC CONTROL.

THEY'VE ATTACKED AND TRIED TO TAKE OUT AND DAMAGE YOUR IMPORTANT NUCLEAR SITES, THE CENTRIFUGE SITES, THE URANIUM ENRICHMENT SITES AND OTHERS.

THEY ARE CAUSING A LOT OF HARDSHIP AND DAMAGE TO YOUR REGIME.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

IT SEEMS THAT FROM HERE.

>> NO, AS I SAID, THEY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN AN ACT OF AGGRESSION AND THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, MARTYRED OUR MILITARY PEOPLE AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, ALONG WITH MANY, MANY IRANIAN CITIZENS.

AND THEY HAVE NO BOUNDARIES.

THEY ATTACKED EVERYWHERE.

YOU MENTIONED ATTACKING AGAINST OUR NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

THESE ARE SAFEGUARDED PLACES.

IT IS A CRIME, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, TO ATTACK, YOU KNOW, A PLACE WHICH IS SAFEGUARDED UNDER IAEA RULES.

SO UNFORTUNATELY, THE AMERICANS AND SOME EUROPEANS HAVE SHIELDED THE ISRAELI REGIME, NOT TO BE CRITICIZED AT THE BOARD MEETING, BOARD OF GOVERNORS, IAEA BOARD OF GOVERNORS MEETING, AND ALSO AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

SO IT'S A SHAME TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE PROTECTING THIS REGIME.

>> OKAY.

LET ME GET TO A FEW THINGS.

CLEARLY YOU MUST BE CONCERNED.

YOU MUST BE WORRIED THAT MORE LEADERSHIP TARGETS WILL BE HIT.

YOU HAVE -- THE SUPREME LEADER, YOUR RULER THERE, AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, THE AYATOLLAH, HAS COME OUT AND SAID THAT THEY WILL -- YOU WILL NEVER SURRENDER IN RESPONSE TO DONALD TRUMP.

BUT I UNDERSTAND ALSO THAT THINGS ARE PRETTY BAD FOR YOU AND THAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO REACH OUT TO THE U.S. AND TO ISRAELIS TO TRY TO GET SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATION TRACK BACK ON TRACK.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

I DO NOT SHARE YOUR ASSESSMENT.

WE ARE NOT REACHING OUT TO ANYBODY.

WE ARE DEFENDING OURSELVES.

ALTHOUGH WE ALWAYS HAVE DIPLOMACY BUT WE CANNOT NEGOTIATE UNDER THE THREATS.

WE CANNOT NEGOTIATE WHILE OUR PEOPLE ARE UNDER BOMBARDMENT EVERY DAY.

SO WE ARE NOT BETTING FOR ANYTHING.

WE ARE JUST DEFENDING OURSELVES.

AND WE HAVE AN EXPERIENCE OF EIGHT YEARS OF WAR AGAINST SADDAM'S AGGRESSION BACK IN '80s AND NOW WE ARE DEFENDING OURSELVES AGAINST ISRAELI REGIME WHICH IS BEING HELPED BY AMERICANS, WHICH IS BEING PROTECTED BY AMERICANS AND SOME OTHERS.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELIS ARE MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED AND POWERFUL THAN SADDAM HUSSEIN EVER WAS.

THAT WAS SOME 40 YEARS AGO.

THIS IS A MUCH BIGGER ORDER OF MAGNITUDE.

AS YOU KNOW ALSO, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS PUBLICLY WEIGHING WHETHER TO JOIN THE STRIKES AND WHETHER SPECIFICALLY TO HIT, FOR INSTANCE, THE VERY DEEPLY BURIED FORDOW FACILITY WITH THE VERY BIG BOMBS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT ARE YOU READING?

DO YOU THINK THE AMERICANS WILL GET INVOLVED?

AND WHAT WOULD YOUR RESPONSE BE?

>> WE DON'T KNOW.

IF THE AMERICANS GET INVOLVED, YOU KNOW, DIRECTLY, DEFINITELY WE ARE -- OUR HANDS WILL NOT BE TIED.

WE WILL DO WHATEVER NECESSARY TO PROTECT OUR PEOPLE AND OUR INTERESTS.

THE AMERICANS HAVE BEEN COLLABORATING WITH THE ISRAELIS, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS CONFLICT, WHICH IS NOT TRUE, BUT IF THEY DECIDE TO BE ENGAGED MILITARILY, DIRECT MILITARY INVOLVEMENT IN THIS MASSACRE, DEFINITELY WE WILL DO WHATEVER NECESSARY TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

AND BY THE WAY, FORDOW IS ANOTHER PROTECTED SITE BASED ON IAEA RULES.

SO THAT WILL BE ANOTHER INSTANCE OF, YOU KNOW, A CRIME WHICH IS BEING DONE UNFORTUNATELY BY ISRAELIS AND AMERICANS, WHICH IS PROHIBITED UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.

>> I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS SAY THEIR INTELLIGENCE SAID THAT YOU WERE MOVING TOWARDS WEAPONIZATION AND THEY HAD TO ACT NOW.

BUT I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IS REGIME CHANGE TARGETING OR REGIME DESTRUCTION TARGETING?

HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE REMOVAL OF A BIG LAYER OF MILITARY COMMANDERS AND WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID ABOUT AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, THAT HE WOULD BE AN EASY TARGET IF THEY WERE TO DECIDE TO TAKE HIM OUT?

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS?

IS THIS ABOUT REGIME CHANGE?

>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THEIR INTENTION.

JUST ASK THEM WHAT THE INTENTION IS.

BUT WE WILL DO WHATEVER NECESSARY TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

AND WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OF, AS I SAID, EIGHT YEAR OF WAR DURING SADDAM'S ERA WHEN EVERYBODY WAS HELPING SADDAM.

SO YOU SAY THAT YOU SHOULD NOT COMPARE SADDAM AND ISRAELI REGIME.

BUT DO NOT FORGET THE FACT THAT ALL THE WORLD WERE BEHIND SADDAM AT THAT TIME AND WE WERE THE ONES WHO RESISTED.

AND NOW THERE IS A VERY STRONG COHESION WITHIN THE IRANIAN SOCIETY TO RESIST AGGRESSION, TO RESIST FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN OUR DOMESTIC AFFAIRS.

SO YOU ASK THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN TEHRAN, ASK THE EMBASSIES, ASK THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN TEHRAN THESE DAYS, AND ASK THE MORALE OF THE PEOPLE.

AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE IRANIANS ARE BEHIND THEIR GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE FACING A FOREIGN AGGRESSION WHICH WILL BE RESISTED.

>> I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT BECAUSE YOU ALL WERE VERY SURPRISED WHEN ASSAD FELL.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT HE WAS THAT UNPOPULAR WITH HIS PEOPLE, AND HE FLED AT THE LAST MINUTE.

I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE NEGOTIATIONS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS APPARENTLY TOLD ALLIES AND FRIENDS THAT HE FELT HE WAS BEING PLAYED BY THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT, THAT THERE WAS NO, YOU KNOW, WILLINGNESS OR IMMEDIATE PROSPECT OF YOU AGREEING TO THE CONDITIONS OF -- YOU KNOW, OF A NEGOTIATION.

HE SAID HE GAVE YOU 60 DAYS AND ON DAY 61 YOU STILL HADN'T COME.

WHY?

WHY DIDN'T YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS?

AND DID YOU BELIEVE YOU HAD A 60-DAY DEADLINE?

>> NOBODY CAN PUT ANY DEADLINE ON US.

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE NEGOTIATE SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, THE TWO SIDES HAVE TO AGREE ON THE TIMETABLE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS.

THIS IS POINT NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO IS THAT WE REALLY DOUBT THE SINCERITY OF THE AMERICANS IN THE COURSE OF FIVE ROUNDS OF DISCUSSIONS THAT WE HAD.

WE HAD GOOD DISCUSSIONS AND AT THE LAST ROUND WE WERE GIVEN SOME DOCUMENT BY THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF OMAN AND APPARENTLY BOTH SIDES FELT THAT THAT WAS A GOOD DOCUMENT TO BE WORKED ON FOR THE NEXT ROUND.

BUT BEFORE THE NEXT ROUND HAS STARTED, TWO DAYS BEFORE THE NEXT ROUND HAS STARTED, THE AGGRESSION TOOK PLACE.

SO THIS IS A BETRAYAL OF DIPLOMACY.

THIS IS THE BETRAYAL OF OUR TRUST TO AMERICANS.

WE SHOULD BE THE ONES WHO SHOULD CRITICIZE THE WAY WE WERE TREATED BY THE AMERICANS, NOT VICE VERSA.

IN FACT, NO DEADLINE IS GOING TO AFFECT OUR WAY OF NEGOTIATIONS AND THEN WE WILL DO WHATEVER NECESSARY TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY FLUID SITUATION.

THE ISRAELI AIRSTRIKES CONTINUE.

AMERICA IS WEIGHING, OR TRUMP IS, WHETHER HE WILL GET INVOLVED.

HE'S NOW SAYING THAT YOU THE IRANIANS HAVE SUGGESTED THAT YOU COME TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO NEGOTIATE.

HE SAYS YOU'RE TOTALLY DEFENSIVE -- DEFENSELESS, YOU HAVE NO AIR DEFENSE WHATSOEVER.

HE SAYS NEXT WEEK WILL BE BIG AND HE SAYS THAT UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER MEANS THAT I'VE HAD IT.

YOUR REACTION.

>> NOBODY CAN THREATEN IRANIANS.

THEY SHOULD NOT DARE TO THREATEN IRAN.

WE WILL DO WHATEVER NECESSARY.

ALTHOUGH THERE ARE HARDSHIPS, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, BUT IRANIANS ARE KNOWN TO BE VERY HARD AT DEFENDING THEIR TERRITORY.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE DOING.

>> DID YOU ASK -- DID YOU ASK TO GO TO THE WHITE HOUSE?

HAS YOUR GOVERNMENT ASKED FOR ACCESS -- >> NOT -- CHRISTIANE, NOT AT ALL.

NOT AT ALL.

WE ARE NOT BEGGING FOR ANYTHING.

WHAT WE ARE SAYING, WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS STOP THIS AGGRESSION.

THEN WE WILL HAVE TIME TO DO WHATEVER NEEDED.

AS LONG AS THE AGGRESSION CONTINUES, AS LONG AS THIS MORTALITY CONTINUES WE CANNOT THINK ABOUT ENGAGING.

>> OKAY.

SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

BECAUSE IT IS CLEAR AND WE CAN SEE IT, THAT A LOT OF YOUR MILITARY CAPABILITY HAS BEEN DEGRADED.

IT IS CLEAR.

THEY SAY THAT THEY HAVE CONTROL OF THE SKIES AND THEY'RE EVEN REPORTING THAT FEWER AND FEWER MISSILES ARE GETTING IN TO ISRAEL.

EVEN THE DEFENSE MINISTER SAYING THAT THEY MIGHT, AS HE SAYS IT, RELEASE THE POPULATION TO GO BACK TO WORK AND TO COME OUT OF THEIR SHELTERS.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

WHY DID YOU SURGE PRODUCTION OF 60% URANIUM TO THE POINT THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW BETWEEN TRUMP'S INAUGURATION AND NOW?

BACK THEN YOU HAD MAYBE A 5 TO 6-WEAPON CAPACITY IF YOU HAD DECIDED TO.

NOW A 10-WEAPON CAPACITY WITH THESE 400 KILOS OF 60% URANIUM.

WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, WE -- WE WERE ACTING BASED ON OUR RIGHTS WITHIN THE NPT.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING WRONG.

IAEA A INSPECTORS WERE PRESENT IRAN.

THEY HAVE TESTIFIED TO THE FACT WE HAVE BEEN VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD IN OUR PROGRAM.

THERE IS NO BAN ON 60% ENRICHED URANIUM, WHICH ARE BEING USED IN DIFFERENT PLACES FOR PEACEFUL PURPOSES.

BUT TO USE THAT AS A PRETEXT TO USE AGGRESSION AGAINST IRAN, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT -- >> BUT EVEN THE IAEA SAYS, AND THEY PUT OUT A PUBLIC STATEMENT SHORTLY BEFORE THESE STRIKES BEGAN, THAT THEY HAD NEVER BEFORE SEEN THAT AMOUNT OF STOCKPILE OF THAT MUCH ENRICHED URANIUM BY ANY COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

SO THAT'S A FACT.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU GUYS WERE NEGOTIATING AND DO YOU FEEL YOU'VE BEEN OUTNEGOTIATED OR YOU MISCALCULATED?

IF TRUMP SAYS HE THINKS YOU'RE PLAYING HIM, MAYBE YOU'VE BEEN PLAYED.

>> NO, NO, AS I SAID, WE WERE NEGOTIATING IN GOOD FAITH WITH AMERICANS.

FIVE ROUNDS OF NEGOTIATIONS.

AND APPARENTLY BOTH OF US WERE HAPPY WITH THE ONGOING NEGOTIATIONS.

BUT ALL OF A SUDDEN TWO DAYS BEFORE, YOU TELL ME THAT HE GAVE US 60-DAY DEADLINE.

AND ON DAY 61 THEY ATTACKED US.

BUT WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN ON DAY 63?

THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT SHOULD RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION.

IF HE KNEW THAT THE ATTACK WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN TWO DAYS BEFORE THE NEXT ROUND, WHY DID HE ACT LIKE THIS?

IN FACT, AS FAR AS NBC REPORT IS CONCERNED, ON JUNE 8th DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, PENTAGON BRIEFED THE PRESIDENT ABOUT THE ATTACK.

SO HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.

IN FACT, IT IS A SORT OF COLLABORATION BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND AMERICANS AND THE DIVISION OF LABOR BETWEEN THE TWO.

>> MR. DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER, I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME MORE THINGS.

AGAIN, I REFERRED TO YOUR SURPRISE, AND I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I WAS IN DOHA WHEN ASSAD FLED AND I WAS MEANT TO BE INTERVIEWING YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER.

HE HAD TO RUSH BACK FOR EMERGENCY SESSION IN TEHRAN BECAUSE YOUR KEY ALLY IN THE REGION COLLAPSED AND FLED.

AND IT WAS A TOTAL SURPRISE TO YOU.

AND NOW IN THE AFTERMATH AN IRANIAN GENERAL WAS QUOTED IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, GENERAL ESPATHI.

HE HAD MADE A SPEECH IN A MOSQUE IN DECEMBER, AND HE MADE A SOBERING ASSESSMENT OF YOUR MILITARY CAPABILITY.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, WHEN HE WAS ASKED IF IRAN WOULD RETALIATE AGAIN FOR VARIOUS KILLINGS LIKE HASSAN NASRALLAH OF HEZBOLLAH, HE REPLIED THAT IRAN ALREADY HAS DONE AND THAT THE SITUATION COULDN'T REALISTICALLY HANDLE ANOTHER ATTACK ON ISRAEL RIGHT NOW.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT YOUR CAPACITY HAS BEEN DIMINISHED AND DEGRADED.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> SO YOU DO NOT EXPECT ME TO REVEAL MILITARY SECRETS.

WHAT OUR MILITARY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DOING IS EXACTLY BASED ON THE CALCULATED, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT THEY HAVE IN MIND.

SO THEY ARE DOING BASED ON THE PLAN THAT THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW, PREPARED FOR THEMSELVES.

SO DON'T, YOU KNOW, MIX THINGS WITH EACH OTHER.

ONE NIGHT OR ONE DAY THE MILITARY MIGHT DECIDE TO DO IN ONE DIRECTION.

ANOTHER DAY THEY MIGHT GO TO ANOTHER DIRECTION.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

YOU ARE JUST REFERRING TO THE REPORTS COMING OUT OF AMERICA -- >> NO, NO, NO.

I'M REFERRING TO AN IRANIAN GENERAL.

SORRY, I AM.

>> NO, I'M JUST -- I WAS REFERRING -- I WAS REFERRING TO THE FACT THAT YOU SAID THAT SOME ISRAELIS ARE SAYING THAT IRAN IS IN SHORT OF MISSILES OR AMERICAN MILITARY PEOPLE.

ARE SAYING THAT IRAN HAS SHORTCOMING AND THIS AND THAT.

SO DO NOT LOOK AT THESE INFORMATION AT FACE VALUE.

THEY HAVE OTHER THINGS IN MIND WHEN THEY HAVE INTERVIEWS AND MAKE PROPAGANDA AGAINST IRAN.

>> OKAY.

STILL QUOTING AN IRANIAN GENERAL HERE, CLEARLY THEY BELIEVE, AND I ASSUME YOU BELIEVE, THAT IF YOU ATTACK, AND YOU MIGHT CALL IT RETALIATION, WHATEVER, IF YOU STRIKE ANY U.S.

BASES OR U.S.

PERSONNEL THE REACTION WILL BE HUMONGOUS.

ARE YOU -- CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU WOULD NOT DO THAT EVEN IF AMERICA JOINS?

IN OTHER WORDS, ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT AMERICA DOESN'T COME INTO THIS?

>> NO, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE NOT ACCEPT AGAINST ANYBODY BUT THE ISRAELIS.

>> I'M SAYING IF AMERICA COMES IN.

>> I'M JUST RESPONDING TO YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> SORRY.

>> IF THE AMERICANS DECIDE TO GET INVOLVED MILITARILY, WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RETALIATE WHEREVER WE FIND THE TARGETS NECESSARY TO BE ACTED UPON.

SO THAT IS CLEAR AND SIMPLE.

BECAUSE WE ARE ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE.

IF ANOTHER COUNTRY JOINS THE FIGHT, SO THAT IS ANOTHER INSTANCE FOR OUR SELF-DEFENSE.

YOU DO NOT EXPECT IRAN TO NOT USE ITS RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE BASED ON ARTICLE 51 OF THE U.N. CHARTER.

>> ABOUT REGIME CHANGE OR REGIME DESTRUCTION, AGAIN, AFTER THE FALL OF ASSAD IN DECEMBER THERE WERE MANY REPORTS, YOU KNOW, COMING FROM INSIDE IRAN HOW PUNDITS WERE TALKING ON STATE TELEVISION, ON TELEGRAM, ON ALL SORTS OF CHATS, HOW IRAN HAD MISJUDGED THE DYNAMICS, PARTICULARLY IN YOUR CLOSEST ALLY.

THERE YOU WERE PROPPING HIM UP.

YOU WERE THE GROUND FORCES.

YOU WERE HIS ALLY.

AND HE FELL AND IT TOOK YOU ALL BY SURPRISE.

SO DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A HANDLE ON WHAT YOUR OWN PEOPLE ARE FEELING?

WHAT IF YOU'RE TAKEN BY SURPRISE AND THEY TAKE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DEMONSTRATE THEIR ANGER AND THEIR IMPATIENCE WITH WHAT THEY HAVE HAD TO GO THROUGH FOR MANY DECADES?

>> NO, AS I SAID BEFORE, COME TO TEHRAN.

COME TO DIFFERENT CITIES IN IRAN.

AND SEE FOR YOURSELF WHAT IS THE COHESION WITHIN THE IRANIAN SOCIETY IN RESISTING AGGRESSION.

IRANIANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FAMOUS FOR THEIR STEADFAST AGAINST AGGRESSION, AGAINST FOREIGN INTERVENTION.

DO NOT COMPARE IRAN FOR ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

I DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER COUNTRY BY NAME IN MY HEAD.

BUT IRAN SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN IRAN BEFORE.

YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE MENTALITY OF THE IRANIANS.

THE DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE.

THOSE WHO ARE CRITICAL OF THE GOVERNMENT.

WITH THOSE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THE GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE ONE VOICE.

THEY RESIST THE AGGRESSION, AND TIME WILL SHOW THAT WE ARE RIGHT.

>> AND FINALLY, ISRAEL SAYS THAT IT BELIEVES YOU WERE ON THE VERGE OF DECIDING TO MAKE A NUCLEAR BOMB.

NOW, TRUMP IS MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION, EVEN THOUGH HIS INTELLIGENCE CHIEF SAID THAT'S NOT THE CASE IN TERMS OF THEIR ASSESSMENTS.

BUT DO YOU KNOW THINK THAT THIS CLEAR ATTACK ON ALL OF YOUR FACILITIES AND YOUR CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS IF YOU SURVIVE WILL IRAN DECIDE TO BECOME A NUCLEAR WEAPONS STATE?

>> WE WILL SURVIVE.

THAT IS FOR SURE.

THIS IS THE POINT THAT I NEED TO EMPHASIZE.

THE OTHER POINT IS THAT WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THERE IS NO PLACE IN OUR DEFENSIVE DOCTRINE, NUCLEAR WEAPONS HAVE NO PLACE IN OUR DEFENSIVE DOCTRINE.

IN FACT, WE BELIEVE THAT THE WORLD WILL BE A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

BUT WHO HAS THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

THE ISRAELI REGIME.

WHO HAS THE WEAPONS, YOU KNOW, THE MOST SOPHISTICATEED WEAPONS, NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

THE AMERICANS.

SO THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE CHAOS THAT ARE GOING ON IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD AS A RESULT OF, YOU KNOW, DESIRE FOR ACHIEVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER MAJID TAKHT-RAVANCHI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AND WE HOPE THAT WE CAN TALK TO YOU AGAIN.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> NOW, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CALLING ON PRESIDENT TRUMP NOT TO JOIN ISRAEL'S WAR ON IRAN, WARNING THAT IT COULD LEAD TO, QUOTE, A NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE.

ALL A BIT RICH, SAY MANY ANALYSTS, GIVEN PUTIN'S OWN WAR ON UKRAINE AND THE VERY REAL RISK OF NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE AS THEIR REACTORS ARE TARGETED.

28 PEOPLE WERE KILLED EARLIER THIS WEEK IN KYIV IN THE DEADLIEST RUSSIAN STRIKES THE CAPITAL HAS SEEN IN ALMOST A YEAR.

BEFORE ABRUPTLY LEAVING THE G7 MEETING IN CANADA PRESIDENT TRUMP STOOD AGAINST HIS ALLIES AND REFUSED MORE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA FOLLOWING A LENGTHY CALL WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

JOINING ME HERE IN THE STUDIO IS RUSSIA'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UK, ANDREI KELIN.

AND HE'S WITH US FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S QUITE RARE TO GET AN OFFICIAL RUSSIAN VOICE.

SO WE'RE GLAD THAT YOU CAME IN.

NOW, ON THIS WAR PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS WEIGHED IN TODAY, URGING THE UNITED STATES NOT TO GET INVOLVED.

TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE BECAUSE IRAN IS YOUR ALLY AND IRAN SENDS YOU A LOT OF WEAPONS, WHICH YOU'RE USING IN UKRAINE.

>> MM-HMM.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HAVE A LOOK AT IT AND I THINK THAT HOW THE WORLD LOOK AT IT.

THIS IS AN UNPROVOKED STRIKE OF MILITARY AGGRESSION IN FACT BY A STATE ISRAEL WHICH ALWAYS DENIED TO TAKE ANY OBLIGATIONS UNDER NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPON REGIME, AGAINST IRAN, WHICH IS A STATE WHICH IS A MEMBER, PART OF NPT TREATY AND WHICH IS UNDER THE I -- >> IAEA.

>> IAEA SYSTEM OF SAFEGUARDS.

AND WHICH TOTALLY IS OBEDIENT TO IT.

AND I WOULD LIKE ALSO TO POINT OUT TO THE CONCLUSION OF INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY OF THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS STATES THAT SINCE 2003 IRAN DOES NOT DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPON IN SPITE OF OUTSIDE PUSH WHICH PUSHES HIM TO DO SO.

>> NOW, YOU HEARD DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER RAVANCHI CONTINUE TO SAY THAT THAT IS NOT THEIR DOCTRINE, THEY WILL NOT GO FOR A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

OBVIOUSLY, OTHERS LIKE ISRAEL DISPUTES THAT.

BUT CAN I ASK YOU FROM YOUR OWN RUSSIAN PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE YOU WERE ALSO PART OF THE JCPOA -- IN FACT, I THINK RUSSIA TOOK A LOT OF THE ENRICHED URANIUM UNDER THAT DEAL, RIGHT?

WHAT DOES RUSSIA SAY ABOUT IRAN TESTING -- YOU KNOW, PUSHING THE LIMITS?

I MEAN, THAT IS HIGH.

60% ENRICHMENT AT THAT QUANTITY, ACCORDING TO THE IAEA.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WHY DO YOU THINK IRAN IS DOING THAT?

>> WE -- WE DON'T ENGAGING IN THIS PLATFORM.

I WILL SAY THAT -- NO PART OF US IS ENGAGED IN A CONVERSATION.

THIS IS A VERY SPECIFIC CONVERSATION.

BUT WE DO BELIEVE IRAN.

IT HAS NO PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

IT HAS A PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING IT FOR DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION, FOR DOMESTIC NEEDS, FOR ENERGY.

AND WHAT IS GOING ON, IT IS A TERRIBLE ESCALATION BECAUSE IT IS VERY DANGEROUS FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW AND EVERYBODY'S WHO IS IN THE REGION BECAUSE WE CAN GET A CONTAMINATION OF THESE STRIKES AGAINST NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

AND WE ALSO HAVE OVER THERE A ATOMIC POWER ENERGY FACILITY OVER THERE WHICH HAVE CONSTRUCTED FOR IRAN.

>> THE BUCHER FACILITY.

>> YES.

BUCHER.

WE DO BELIEVE ONE SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT.

WE CAN GET A CONTAMINATION OF THE REGION AND EVEN BEYOND THE REGION.

>> SO IT JUST STRIKES ME THAT THE NUCLEAR DEAL THAT WAS SIGNED IN 2015 IS POSSIBLY THE FIRST AND THE ONLY AGREEMENT THAT I CAN CONJURE UP IN MY HEAD RIGHT NOW THAT THE ENTIRE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL VOTED FOR.

RUSSIA, CHINA, THE U.S., THE PERMANENT MEMBERS WHO ARE ALWAYS AT LOGGERHEAD, WHO NEVER VOTE ON THE SAME THING, ALL VOTED FOR THIS.

IRAN IS ALSO YOUR MAIN ALLY NOW, ONE OF THEM, IN YOUR -- YES.

IN YOUR FIGHT AGAINST UKRAINE.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITHOUT IRANIAN DRONES, IRANIAN -- ALL THE STUFF THAT THEY'RE SENDING YOU?

THE SHAHEED SUICIDE DRONES WHICH ARE CAUSING SO MUCH DESTRUCTION IN UKRAINE.

>> NO, NO.

WE -- IT WAS AN INITIAL PHASE OF THE SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION -- >> ARE YOU STILL NOT CALLING IT A WAR?

>> USED THE IRANIAN DRONES AS PROCESSING.

AND SINCE THAT TIME WE HAVE CONSTRUCTED A LOT OF FACILITIES ON OUR SOIL THAT IS PRODUCING MUCH MORE ADVANCED WEAPONRY INCLUDING THE -- THESE AS YOU CALLED SHAHEEDS, WELL, UNMANNED FLYING OBJECTS, WHICH IS NOW IN PLACE BUT IT IS OUR OWN PRODUCTION.

>> SO ARE YOU SAYING YOU DON'T NEED IRANIAN WEAPONS ANYMORE?

>> I DO NOT KNOW.

THAT IS BEYOND MY COMPETENCE TO SPEAK ABOUT THAT.

BUT AS I UNDERSTAND, THE PRODUCTION IN IRAN WAS VERY LIMITED ON IT.

THEY DO HAVE FACILITIES, BUT SINCE THAT TIME WE HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN INDUSTRY IN ALL BRANCHES NECESSARY TO SUPPLY FOR THE SPECIAL OPERATION IN UKRAINE.

>> IS IRAN STILL AN ALLY?

I FEEL LIKE YOU'RE DROPPING THEM WITH THIS STATEMENT.

>> NO, NO.

>> IS IT STILL AN ALLY?

>> IT IS OF COURSE AN ALLY.

WE HAVE TREATY THAT HAS JUST BEEN RATIFIED BY IRANIAN PARLIAMENT AND BY RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT ON THAT SUBJECT.

WE ARE NOT ALLIES IN MILITARY TERMS.

WE DO NOT HAVE SUCH -- >> BUT YOU WERE.

YOU MAY NOT HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN BUT YOU WERE.

>> WE DO NOT HAVE SUCH AN OBLIGATION BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF COOPERATION.

WE DEVELOPED IT IN MANY AREAS.

AND I CAN PROVE IT BECAUSE SINCE WE HAVE EVACUATED A LOT OF CULTURAL DELEGATIONS AND SCIENTIFIC DELEGATION RIGHT NOW FROM IRAN, AN ORCHESTRA AND A BIG CINEMA PRODUCTION CAPACITIES OVER THERE WHICH UNDER BANDARCHUCK WAS AHEAD OF IT.

ORCHESTRA I MENTIONED.

SCIENTIFIC -- >> YOU'VE JUST EVACUATED A WHOLE BUNCH OF RUSSIANS?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> BECAUSE OF THIS WAR?

>> THAT INCLUDED ALSO A SCIENCE -- SCIENTIFIC PEOPLE, POLITICIANS AND ALL OF THAT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING?

BECAUSE IT'S VERY -- YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAD A PRETTY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN.

HE DIDN'T COME TO THE AID OF UKRAINE.

AND HE NEEDED PUTIN'S WHATEVER, ACQUIESCENCE, PERMISSION TO BOMB TARGETS INSIDE SYRIA WHILE YOU WERE SUPPORTING ASSAD.

NOW OF COURSE ASSAD HAS FALLEN.

ISRAEL HAS QUITE CONTROL OF THE SKIES OVER SYRIA AS WELL AND CONTINUES TO BOMB THERE.

DOES PUTIN HAVE ANY INFLUENCE WITH ISRAEL OR IRAN IF HE DOESN'T WANT, YOU KNOW, THIS TO CONTINUE?

HAS HE BEEN ASKED?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

AND I THINK THAT HE DOES.

HE DID TALK TO NETANYAHU.

HE DID TALK TO IRANIAN LEADERSHIP.

HE TALKED TO TRUMP, WHO HAS JUST CONFIRMED IT.

AND ACTUALLY, WE HAVE CONNECTIONS WITH ALL THE PLAYERS IN THE AREA, IN THE REGION, AND WE CAN OFFER SOME MEDIATION EFFORTS ON THAT SUBJECT IF IT WILL BE REQUIRED.

AND I KNOW THAT THERE ARE PLAYERS, IMPORTANT PLAYERS IN THE AREA AND OUTSIDE OF THE AREA THAT WILL WELCOME THESE MEDIATION EFFORTS.

>> LET'S GET TO UKRAINE.

BECAUSE WHATEVER YOU SAY ABOUT WHAT ISRAEL HAS DONE TO IRAN, YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR THREE YEARS-PLUS IN UKRAINE.

YOU'VE VIOLATED A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.

YOU ARE ATTACKING THEIR CIVILIANS.

YOU ARE ALSO TARGETING AND ATTACKING VARIOUS REACTORS THERE.

SO POTENTIAL OF A NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE.

TRUMP HAS SAID HE DOESN'T NECESSARILY WANT TO PUT ANY MORE SANCTIONS ON.

DO YOU FEEL ANY LEVERAGE?

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET YOU THE RUSSIANS TO ACTUALLY BE SERIOUS ABOUT A CEASEFIRE OR NOT?

OR ARE YOU -- >> ABOUT WHAT?

>> ALL OF THAT.

A CEASEFIRE AND STOPPING THIS WAR.

>> CHRISTIANE, THIS IS NOT OUR FIRST CONVERSATION ON THE SUBJECT.

>> RIGHT.

BUT IT'S CARRYING ON.

>> OUR GOAL IS AN OVERALL AND COMPREHENSIVE AGREEMENT ON THE SITUATION WITH ELIMINATION OF GROUND TROOPS ON THE CONFLICT.

WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IT ONCE AND FOREVER.

WE DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A PAUSE THAT WILL SERVES UKRAINE TO REGROUP ITS FORCES AND SO ON.

THERE ARE TWO WAYS OF DOING THIS.

ONE IS JUST TO MOVE AHEAD OR YOU HAVE A SITUATION OF COMPLETE IMPASSE ON THE FIELD AND THEN YOU ENTER THE NEGOTIATIONS.

OR -- BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT.

WE ARE NOW IN OFFENSIVE AND UKRAINE IS IN RETREAT, IN A QUICK RETREAT.

IN MAY WE HAVE TAKEN ABOUT 600 SQUARE KILOMETERS OF THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE.

AND WE CONTINUE TO DO THAT WITH EVEN MORE SCALE.

SO WE DO NOT SEE ANY NECESSITY TO STOP.

>> SO YOU THINK YOU'RE WINNING?

YOU THINK YOU'RE WINNING?

>> YES, OF COURSE WE DO.

YES, WE CONTINUE TO REQUIRE MORE AND MORE GROUNDS.

AND FOR UKRAINE THERE IS A CHOICE, EITHER THEY WILL TAKE OUR CONDITIONS RIGHT NOW AND IT WILL BE A PERMANENT CEASEFIRE AND A COMPREHENSIVE SETTLEMENT OF THE SITUATION, OR WE WILL CONTINUE THIS DRIVE AND UKRAINE WILL HAVE TO SURRENDER UNDER MUCH WORSE CONDITIONS THAN WE ARE PROPOSING RIGHT NOW.

>> THAT'S PRETTY AGGRESSIVE.

I MEAN, IT REALLY SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE DOUBLING AND TRIPLING DOWN.

THEY HAVE TO SURRENDER.

IT NEEDS TO TAKE OUR TERMS OR ELSE.

THAT'S NOT A NEGOTIATION, AMBASSADOR.

THAT'S A CAPITULATION.

>> WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF STARTING THE NEGOTIATIONS.

WE HAVE HAD TWO ROUNDS OF NEGOTIATIONS WITH UKRAINE.

AND WE ACHIEVED SOME -- A LOT OF AGREEMENTS, I WILL SAY, IMPORTANT AGREEMENTS.

HUMANITARIAN SIDE.

EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS.

EXCHANGE OF BODIES.

EXCHANGE OF YOUNG SOLDIERS WHO ARE PRISONERS AND ALL OTHERS.

AND WE ARE PLANNING THE THIRD ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS AFTER THE 22nd OF JUNE.

THE DATE IS NOT YET FIXED.

BUT IT IS IN THE PLANS.

SO THIS IS STAGE BY STAGE NEGOTIATIONS BECAUSE IT'S A COMPLICATED CONFLICT.

>> OH, YEAH.

NOT ACTUALLY BECAUSE YOU INVADED YOUR NEIGHBOR AND VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAW.

SO THAT'S CLEAR.

SO THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE ANY NATO STAFF, NO REAL ARMY.

I MEAN, THOSE ARE THE CONDITIONS THAT PUTIN SAID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT THOSE ARE SILL THE CONDITIONS?

YOU DON'T REALLY WANT AN INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN UKRAINE.

>> NO.

WE HAVE NEVER SAID THAT.

>> YOU HAVE.

>> BUT THERE ARE TWO MAJOR ISSUES.

ONE IS THAT UKRAINE SHOULD NOT BE PART OF NATO BECAUSE IT IS VERY THREATENING TO US.

IT IS DAMAGING OUR SECURITY.

AND THE SECOND IS REESTABLISHMENT OF NORMAL HUMAN RIGHTS ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE FOR EVERYBODY.

THAT SHOULD INCLUDE RUSSIANS, HUNGARIANS, POLES ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE, WHICH IS NOW VERY DETRIMENTAL.

AND THE SITUATION OF MINORITIES IN UKRAINE.

>> YOU'RE ASKING FOR TERRITORY YOU HAVEN'T EVEN OCCUPIED YET.

BUT LET'S -- >> IT WILL COME.

>> WHAT?

IT WILL COME?

>> OF COURSE.

>> YOU REALLY ARE CONFIDENT?

WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET ALL THESE SOLDIERS?

I KNOW YOU HAVE A BIGGER POPULATION.

BUT CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOUR SOLDIERS, OR THE FAMILIES, WHAT'S GOING ON?

YOU PAY THEM, DON'T YOU?

>> YES, WE DO PAY THE SOLDIERS.

>> BUT I MEAN EXTRA TO RECRUIT THEM?

WHAT ARE THE FAMILIES IN RUSSIA SAYING ABOUT THIS WAR?

IT'S A MEAT GRINDER FOR THEM.

>> I WILL TELL YOU ABOUT THE -- WHAT EXPERTS, OUTSIDE EXPERTS ARE SAYING THAT -- THIS IS NOT A WAR, IN FACT.

A WAR IS BEING DONE WITH THE FULL CAPACITY OF A STATE.

IT NEEDS TO PROVIDE ABOUT 40% OF ITS NATIONAL INCOME FOR THE WAR.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

WE HAVE ONLY 5% TO 7% OF OUR BUDGET, WHICH IS ALLOCATED TO THE WAR.

WE HAVE A MUCH SMALLER ARMY THAN UKRAINIAN ONE OVER THERE ENGAGED.

IT'S ABOUT AROUND 600,000 AGAINST A MILLION OF UKRAINIAN ARMY AS THEY CLAIM TO BE.

>> WESTERN INTELLIGENCE SAYS YOU ARE GETTING MANY MORE CASUALTIES, UP TO A MILLION CASUALTIES.

>> IT IS UP TO YOU TO BELIEVE LIKE YOUR IRANIAN COLLOCUTOR HAS SAID, YOU DO BELIEVE CALCULATIONS OF WESTERN COUNTRIES.

WE HAVE OUR OWN CALCULATIONS.

WE HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERTS, INDEPENDENT AS WELL, AND WE'RE NOT SPEAKING ABOUT CASUALTIES.

WHAT'S YOUR NEXT QUESTION?

>> SPEAKING ABOUT CASUALTIES.

ACTUALLY, I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT HOW YOU MANAGE TO KEEP RECRUITING THEM.

>> I'M NOT A SPECIALIST IN THIS AREA.

BUT AS I UNDERSTAND, WE HAVE 50 TO 60 THOUSAND A MONTH OF THOSE VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE COMING TO RECRUIT, POSTING AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO GET ENGAGED INTO THIS THING.

>> WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE, AS YOU JUST MENTIONED, ON JUNE 22nd?

BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, AGAIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP FEELS THAT HE THOUGHT HE HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH PUT THANE WOULD LEAD PUT TONY PUTIN TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT A CEASEFIRE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

HE'S ALSO BEEN TELLING PEOPLE THAT HE FEELS LIKE HE'S BEEN PLAYED BY VLADIMIR PUTIN AND HE SAYS HE'S LOSING PATIENCE AND YOU'RE BOTH LIKE CHILDREN IN A KINDERGARTEN, BOTH SIDES, AND YOU HAVE TO FIGHT UNTIL -- >> I HAVE SEEN THE STATEMENT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP OF COURSE ABOUT CHILDREN PLAYING IN THE GARDEN.

BUT WE ARE NOT IN A SITUATION LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN IN CANADA NOW WHERE IT WAS -- AS SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING ONE PLUS SIX MEETING.

YES.

>> YOU MEAN THE G7 IN CANADA?

>> YES.

G7 CHARACTERISTIC.

1 PLUS 6 I THINK IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST THING WHICH I HAVE HEARD.

WE DO HAVE CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN OUR TWO PRESIDENTS ON EQUAL FOOTING.

I WILL TELL YOU.

AND SINCE I CAN FOLLOW WHAT THEY TELL TO EACH OTHER.

SO THAT IS A CONVERSATION VERY POLITE BETWEEN TWO LEADERS WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY DO WITH A LOT OF TRUST AND A LOT OF UNDERSTANDING OF EACH OTHER POSITION.

>> OKAY.

BUT NOT YET CLOSER TO ENDING THE WAR.

AMBASSADOR KELIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NOW, HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA HAVE BEEN KILLED, MOSTLY AROUND CONTROVERSIAL AID DISTRIBUTION SITES INCLUDING SCORES TODAY ACCORDING TO OFFICIALS THERE.

AND WITH ATTENTION TURNED TO IRAN, THEIR PLIGHT RISKS, IN FACT IS BEING FORGOTTEN.

AND MANY ARE WARNING THAT THE CONFLICT THREATENS TO ERASE PALESTINIAN HISTORY, CULTURE AND IDENTITY, MEANING STORYTELLING ITSELF BECOMES A FORM OF SURVIVAL.

OUR NEXT GUEST, THE PALESTINIAN-AMERICAN WRITER HALA AYAN, IS DOING WHAT SHE CAN TO PRESERVE THAT.

HER NEW MEMOIR, "I'LL TELL YOU WHEN I'M HOME," IS AN EXPLORATION OF MOTHERHOOD, EXILE, AND HER OWN FAMILY'S DISPLACEMENT DURING THE 1948 NAKBA.

AYAN IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW THE STORIES WE INHERIT SHAPE THE ONES WE TELL.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

HALA AYAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ARE A WOMAN OF MANY LIVES.

YOU ARE A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST.

YOU ARE A POET.

YOU ARE THE AUTHOR OF MANY BEAUTIFUL ESSAYS THAT JUST SORT OF TOUCH PEOPLE TO THEIR CORE.

THIS BOOK, IT'S A MEMOIR, BUT I ALSO READ IT IN PART SOME OF IT READS LIKE POETRY.

SOME OF IT THEY'RE LIKE PROSE POEMS.

SOME OF IT IS A HISTORY LESSON.

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I MEAN, I THINK IN SOME WAYS A POET IS CONSTANTLY GIVING THEMSELVES AWAY.

WE'RE LIKE THE POETIC FINGERPRINTS ARE ON EVERYTHING I TOUCH.

I CONCEPTUALIZE THE WORLD VERY -- IN ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT I DO SORT OF THROUGH THE PRISM OF FRAGMENTATION.

I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT WE DO WITH PARTS IN GENERAL AS PEOPLE.

WHICH TRACKS WITH BEING A PSYCHOLOGIST.

IT TRACKS WITH BEING A WRITER.

JUST KIND OF REALLY THINKING ABOUT HOW WE CAN TAKE ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT CAN FEEL INCREDIBLY INCOHERENT THAT OFTENTIMES DO FEEL INCOHERENT FOR US IN THE PRESENT, AND THEN THROUGH THE ACT OF MAKING AND REMAKING AND CREATING SOMETHING STARTS TO EMERGE.

SO I THINK THIS BOOK REALLY IS KIND OF A TESTAMENT TO THAT MAKING THAT I WAS DOING AND THAT SORT OF FUMBLING IN THE DARK THAT I WAS DOING IN MY PSYCHE THROUGH HISTORY, THROUGH CONCEPTUALIZATIONS OF FERTILITY, THE BODY, LAND, EXILE, DISPLACEMENT.

IT'S ARCHIVE.

IT'S MEMORY.

IT'S DREAM WORK.

I MEAN, IT'S ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

>> THE THING ABOUT THIS BOOK, IT BRAIDS TOGETHER SOME OF THE MOST PROFOUND EXPERIENCES THAT ANY HUMAN BEING CAN HAVE.

THE EXPERIENCE OF INFERTILITY.

THE EXPERIENCE OF DIFFICULTIES IN MARRIAGE.

BUT ALSO THE EXPERIENCE OF DISPLACEMENT.

I MEAN, YOU'RE PALESTINIAN.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT.

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DISPLACED THROUGH DECADES ACROSS CONTINENTS AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE YOU FIT IN THE WORLD.

WHAT MADE THIS THE TIME TO WRITE THIS BOOK?

>> I THINK -- YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE I -- THIS BOOK WAS WRITTEN PREOCTOBER 7th BECAUSE THE EDITING PROCESS, ET CETERA, YOU KNOW, YOU GIVE IT TO PUBLICATION, AND WHILE I WAS DOING THE EDITS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAD WAS IS THIS STILL GOING TO BE RELEVANT, THE URGENCY OF THE MOMENT RIGHT NOW OF EVERYTHING WE'RE SEEING IN GAZA AND ELSEWHERE FEELS SO COMPLETELY COMPELLED TO PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND SPEAK ABOUT THAT AND JUST BE WRITING ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS ONE OF THOSE QUERIES I HAD FOR MYSELF DURING THE EDITING PROCESS OF DOING THAT, SCRAP THIS, DO WE WRITE TOWARD A DIFFERENT ENDING?

THE STORYLINE AS IT IS IN THE BOOK ENDS IN 2022 WITH THE BIRTH OF MY DAUGHTER.

DO WE NOW WRITE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING?

DO WE ADD AN AFTER-WORD?

DO WE WHATEVER?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REALLY STRIKING ABOUT IT WAS THAT IN THE END IT ALL REMAINED RELEVANT BECAUSE I HAD BEEN WRITING PALESTINE THROUGHOUT IT.

WRITING TO YOUR POINT THE EXPERIENCE OF EXILE AND DISPLACEMENT AND THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH YOU KIND OF DON'T KNOW THE WATER YOU'RE SWIMMING IN BECAUSE YOU'RE CONSTANTLY SWIMMING IN IT, THAT I FELT LIKE THERE WAS SOMETHING I NEEDED TO DO THAT WAS MORE PRONOUNCED WITH THE NARRATIVE WHEN IN FACT IT'S EVERYTHING THAT I'M TOUCHING, IT'S EVERYTHING THAT I'M THINKING ABOUT AND HAS BEEN FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE.

AND SO FOR ME THE NECESSITY OF THIS PARTICULAR NARRATIVE FOR THIS STORY IS JUST FRANKLY THAT I COULDN'T GET THE NARRATIVE OR THE STORY TO WORK IN ANY OTHER FORM.

>> I'M GOING TO EDIT WHAT I SAID EARLIER.

I SAID YOU'RE PLNTD ALESTINIAN AMERICAN.

OR YOU'RE AN AMERICAN PALESTINIAN.

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HEAR IT IN YOUR OWN MIND.

RIGHT.

SO BRIEFLY WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR ROOTS?

>> WE WERE -- I WAS BORN TO PALESTINIAN SYRIAN LEBANESE IMMIGRANTS.

SO MY PARENTS MET AND MARRIED IN KUWAIT.

MY MOTHER'S BACKGROUND IS LEBANESE SYRIAN.

PALESTINIAN A LITTLE BIT.

MY DAD WAS BORN IN GAZA AFTER BEING -- HIS FAMILY LEFT A VILLAGE THAT WAS ERADICATED IN 1948 CALLED ERAKS VIDAN.

SO THEY MET IN KUWAIT.

I WAS BORN IN THE STATES.

WE WERE IN THE STATES VERY BRIEFLY AFTER MY BIRTH AND THEN WENT BACK TO KUWAIT.

WE WERE THERE UNTIL SADDAM'S INVASION IN 1990.

THEN PRECIPITATED OUR NEEDING TO SEEK ASYLUM.

OR MY PARENTS -- I HAD A PASSPORT.

BUT MY PARENTS SO THE ASYLUM IN THE STATES.

THEN WE LIVED IN THE MIDWEST UNTIL I WAS ABOUT 12.

AND THEN I MOVED BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

FROM 12 TO 22 I LIVED IN THE ARAB WORLD AND I DID MY HIGH SCHOOL IN LEBANON.

I DID MY UNDERGRAD IN BEIRUT.

AND THEN CAME TO NEW YORK FOR GRAD SCHOOL AND HAVE BEEN THERE SINCE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN THERE SINCE.

BUT ALSO YOUR FAMILY'S NEVER LEFT YOU.

THEY'RE STILL WITH YOU.

YOU'RE CARRYING THEM WITH YOU.

RIGHT?

>> I THINK THAT'S THE REALLY INTERESTING EXPERIENCE OF DIASPORA IN SO MANY WAYS IS YOUR KIND OF LIKE NOT QUITE THERENESS AND IN BETWEENNESS SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT AND WRITTEN ABOUT ACROSS CENTURIES, IS ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT IS YOU ARE -- YOU'RE KIND OF ALWAYS IN A PLACE AND YOU'RE NEVER IN A PLACE AT THE SAME TIME AND YOU'RE ALWAYS SORT OF AMASSING AND REGATHERING DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, MARKERS THAT FEEL LIKE HOME.

SO YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, ONE OF THEM IS IT'S THE FAMILY NEVER LEAVES YOU BUT ALSO THE STORIES NEVER LEAVE YOU, THE MEMORY.

YOU BECOME THE HOLDER OF MEMORIES IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND YOU BECOME THE ARCHIVE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> YOU KNOW THE GREAT AFRICAN AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, WRITER AND SOCIOLOGIST SCHOLAR W.E.B.

DUBE OIS SPOKE ABOUT THAT IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE OF THE TWONESS.

THE TWO WARRING SOULS IN ONE DARK BODY.

BUT IN YOUR CASE THE TWO WARRING SOULS ARE AT TIMES COUNTRIES THAT ARE LITERALLY AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER.

AND THEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE WAR WITH YOUR BODY.

NOT DOING WHAT IT IS THAT YOU SO WANT IT TO DO.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND THAT IS A VERY INTERESTING THING TO SORT OF COMPARE THAT TO THAT EXPERIENCE OF WAR.

YOU TALK ABOUT BEING EXILED FROM MOTHERHOOD AS SOMETHING YOU SO VERY MUCH WANT BUT ARE LONGING FOR BUT IS ELUDING YOU.

I JUST THINK THAT'S QUITE REMARKABLE.

THAT'S WHERE I WANT TO ASK YOU TO READ A PASSAGE FOR US.

AND IT'S WRITTEN AS A KIND OF -- IT'S WRITTEN AS SORT OF ADDRESSED TO YOUR DAUGHTER.

SO WOULD YOU READ A BIT FOR US?

>> IN YOU IS THE GLITTERING BEIRUT PAVEMENT AFTER RAIN, THE PORTS OF BOSTON.

IN YOU ARE BOTH MY GRANDMOTHERS' REBELLIOUS BLOOD, FOLLOWING MEN, ESCAPING WARS FROM ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER.

MY MOTHER'S LEAVINGS.

MY AUNTS.

THE RAGE AND HUMILIATION AND EXILE.

IN YOU IS THE HARM AND REJOICING IN HEALTH GENERATIONS OF WOMEN.

IN YOU LIVE THE PEOPLE THAT MADE YOU.

ALL OF THEM.

I WOULDN'T GIVE YOU ANOTHER STORY EVEN IF I COULD FOR THIS IS THE ONE THAT BORE YOU AND IT IS HEAVY AND DAZZLING AND THE TRUTH.

IN YOU IS YOUR FATHER'S WANDERLUST, HIS FATHER'S LONELINESS.

HIS FATHER'S FATHER'S HEART GIVING OUT ON THE MARBLE FLOOR.

IN YOU IS THE STORY OF SAILORS, OCCUPIERS, THE OCCUPIED, THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER LEFT AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MADE TO.

YOU WILL LEARN TO LIVE WITHIN THIS AS WE ALL DO.

YOU COME FROM PEOPLE THAT LOVE THE WAY MOONS PULL TIDES OR ELSE THE WAY TIDES ARE PULLED BY THE MOON, AND SOMEDAY YOU WILL HAVE TO RECKON WITH YOUR OWN UNRULY HEART.

I HAVE NO ADVICE TO GIVE SAVE ONE THING.

DON'T EXILE ANYTHING.

TURN THE SUN OF YOUR ATTENTION BRIEFLY, SOMETIMES BRIEFLY ON ALL THAT AWAKENS YOUR LOVE.

THIS IS YOUR BIRTHRIGHT, VEDA.

YOU WILL HAVE TO HUNT FOR MANY THINGS, EXCAVATE THEM IN OTHERS OR YOURSELF, BUT NOT YOUR MOTHER'S TRUTHS.

I'LL LEAVE THAT RIGHT IN THE OPEN FOR YOU TO SEE.

>> HMM.

THERE'S SO MUCH HERE.

IT'S NOT UNIQUELY WOMEN.

BUT IT IS OFTEN WOMEN WHO ARE SORT OF ASKED TO CHOOSE ONE OR THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, THE PERSONAL OR THE POLITICAL.

RIGHT?

YOU'RE ASKED TO THINK ABOUT THE WORLD OR YOU'RE ASKED TO THINK ABOUT THE HOME OR WHAT'S WITHIN YOU AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE IS I REFUSE.

I REFUSE TO CHOOSE.

IT'S ALL WITHIN US.

BUT THE OTHER PASSAGE HERE THAT REALLY, REALLY SORT OF STRUCK ME IS "IN YOU IS THE STORY OF SAILORS, OCCUPIERS, THE OCCUPIED, THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER LEFT, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE MADE TO.

YOU WILL LEARN TO LIVE WITHIN THIS AS WE ALL DO."

DO YOU, THOUGH?

DO WE ALL LIVE WITH THIS?

>> I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

LIKE THERE'S A SPECIFIC EXPERIENCE THAT'S BEING -- IT EVOKES HERE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S SORT OF ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT WRITING, IS HOW TO LIVE ALONGSIDE THE PARTICULAR AND THE UNIVERSAL AND HOW TO LEAN INTO THE SPECIFICITY AND OFTENTIMES IN LEANING TO THE SPECIFICITY YOU'RE CALLING FOR SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE THEMSELVES IN.

I THINK WE ALL LIVE WITHIN CONTRADICTIONS.

I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE SENSE OF OUR -- WHAT WE INHERIT AND WHAT WE WANT TO LEAVE BEHIND.

YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE MOTHERS OR CAREGIVERS OR WHATEVER IN THOSE TRADITIONAL SENSES, I THINK WE ALL HOPEFULLY ARE ON THIS PLANET TO THINK OF WAYS TO SHOW UP FOR EACH OTHER AND CARE FOR EACH OTHER.

AND I THINK TO DO THAT IS TO THINK OF THE LEGACY THAT WE COME FROM AND THE LEGACY WE'LL LEAVE BEHIND.

>> SO HALA, AFTER -- AFTER ALL OF THIS, THIS VERY REAL EXPERIENCE OF MOVING FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND ALSO THE MEDITATION ON MOVING FROM PLACE TO PLACE, WHAT DOES HOME MEAN TO YOU NOW?

>> IT'S A BEAUTIFUL QUESTION.

I THINK ON ONE HAND CERTAINLY HOME, AS FOR MANY PEOPLE IN DIAS PORIC COMMUNITY HAS COME TO MEAN THE IDEA OF THE PERPETUAL HOPE FOR RETURN, IN MY CASE TO BE ABLE TO BRING MY DAUGHTER FREELY TO PLACES IN PALESTINE, TO PLACES IN LEBANON, TO PLACES IN SYRIA SO THAT SHE'S ABLE TO ACCESS HER ANCESTRY, SHE'S ABLE TO ACCESS HER BIRTHRIGHT.

I THINK UNTIL THAT IS POSSIBLE FOR ME IN THIS PRESENT MOMENT HOME HAS COME TO MEAN THE PEOPLE I FEEL IN COMMUNITY WITH, THE PEOPLE THAT I KNOW SEE ME AND THAT I CAN SEE WITH SORT OF LOVE, WITH AFFECTION, WITH WARMTH AND WITH WHOLENESS, TO BE ABLE TO REALLY ALLOW FOR KIND OF ALL THE CONTRADICTORY PARTS OF OUR IDENTITIES, OUR HISTORIES, TO SHOW UP FULLY.

AND SO IT'S COME TO MEAN REALLY MORE CONCEPTS AND PERSONHOOD AND LIKE HOW WE SHOW UP WITH EACH OTHER.

IT'S BECOME A FAR MORE INTANGIBLE THING, I THINK FOR A LONG TIME AS REALLY PREOCCUPIED WITH THE IDEA OF PHYSICAL PLACE AND HOW I COULD EVOKE IT IN MY WRITING AND HOW I COULD WRITE TOWARDS IT AND THE RHETORIC AROUND IT AND WHATNOT.

I THINK THAT WHILE SO MANY OF THOSE THINGS CONTINUE TO BE IMPORTANT, IN THE MEANTIME IT'S BEEN FINDING PEOPLE WHO SEE THE WORLD IN SIMILAR WAYS AS ME.

YOU KNOW, AND BEING ABLE TO THINK OF WAYS TO RAISE MY DAUGHTER TO -- I WANT A HOME, AND THAT IS TO SAY A FUTURE, AND THAT IS TO SAY A WORLD THAT IS BETTER FOR HER THAN THE ONE THAT I'M IN RIGHT NOW.

>> CAN I READ ONE PASSAGE THAT REALLY -- THAT STRUCK ME?

IT'S EARLYISH IN THE BOOK.

YOU WERE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR DAUGHTER.

SHE IS HERE.

BUT EVER MANY TRIALS AND A LOT OF INTERVENTIONS AND SOME HEARTBREAKING MISCARRIAGES AND PAINFUL EXPERIENCE.

AND YOU WERE ABLE TO HAVE HER THROUGH SURROGACY.

AND SO I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE THIS IS HOW WE HELP TO SET UP THIS PASSAGE I WANT TO READ.

"THIS STORY IS ABOUT WAITING.

I WAS TERRIBLE AT WAITING BUT USED TO IT, OR SO I'D THOUGHT.

BUT THOSE PINK LINES MEANT A DIFFERENT KIND OF WAITING.

SUDDENLY WAITING HAD A PURPOSE, A GOAL.

THE WAITING BECAME TOLERABLE BECAUSE OS TENSABLY IT HAD AN ENDING.

I'D BECOME CONSUMED WITH LEAVINGS.

JOHNNY'S, MY BODY'S DEATH THE WAY PLACES BECAME INACCESSIBLE WITH WHAT WOULDN'T STAY.

NO BULLDOZER CLEAVED MY LIFE IN TWO.

IT HAD BEEN JUST ONE NOISELESS DEPARTURE AFTER THE OTHER.

AND BENEATH THAT PULSING LOSS AN ECHO OF ALL THE VANISHINGS.

AND TAKINGS THAT HAD COME BEFORE.

BUT NOW THERE IS SOMETHING COMING.

THERE IS A WAITING THAT MATTERS.

HOW I USE MY TIME.

WHAT AMENDS I MAKE.

THE STORIES I GATHER, WHAT I'LL TELL YOU AND HOW.

STORIES OF THE PEOPLE YOU'LL NEVER KNOW.

OF THE PLACES OF LOVE AND WRECKAGE IN EQUAL MEASURE.

MY ENTIRE LIFE I HUNG FOR STORIES MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

THE STORY INSIDE EACH WAR, EACH ARRIVAL.

I'D LIE IN BED AS A CHILD AND IMAGINE MYSELF A TIME TRAVELLER RETURNING TO MY MOTHER'S CHILDHOOD, MY GRANDMOTHER'S YOUTH, BACK EVEN FARTHER, ALL THE WOMEN AND HOUSES AND BIRTHS AND BURIALS, THE PRAYERS, THE WEDDING CEREMONIES, THE ARMIES.

I WAS DETERMINED OF ONE THING.

I'D PUT MY WAITING TO GOOD USE.

THAT'S A TESTAMENT ABOUT STORY AND THE IMPORTANCE OF STORY.

AND NOW, NOW THAT YOU'VE TOLD THIS STORY, I WANT TO ASK, DO YOU FEEL A WHOLENESS NOW?

>> WHOLENESS IS A BIG WORD.

I THINK I FEEL -- I FEEL A SENSE OF COMPLETION IN TERMS OF HAVING TRIED TO TELL THE STORY I WAS TRYING TO TELL.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE LEARNED ABOUT WRITING OR STUDYING NARRATIVE KIND OF MORE ON A LIKE SOCIOPOLITICAL LEVEL, IS THAT IT'S NEVER DONE.

I DO FEEL LIKE I TOLD THE STORY THAT I WANTED TO TELL.

AND I THINK THE TIMING OF IT, WHEN THIS BOOK IS BEING RELEASED IS REALLY HEART-WRENCHING IN THAT IT'S A BOOK ABOUT REALLY MY EXPERIENCE OF MOTHERHOOD AND SURROGACY AND ALL THOSE YEARS OF INFERTILITY HAS SHOWN ME JUST THE ABSOLUTE VALUE OF A LIFE AND THE PRECIOUSNESS OF A LIFE AND WHAT ONE CAN UNDERTAKE TO BRING A LIFE INTO THIS WORLD AND TO SORT OF COMPARE THAT TO THE ABSOLUTE DEVASTATION AND DISREGARD FOR LIFE THAT WE'RE SEEING.

THAT I THINK HAS BEEN -- IT'S AN INTERESTING TIME TO BE LAUNCHING THE BOOK, TO BE REALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE WRITING ABOUT HAVING BROUGHT IN MANY WAYS A HALF PALESTINIAN CHILD TO THIS WORLD.

AND TO THINK ABOUT HOW -- I DO NOT BELIEVE ART IS A REPLACEMENT FOR POLICY OR THE CHANGES THAT NEED TO HAPPEN ON THE GROUND.

BUT I DO THINK THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT -- I HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND NARRATIVE MAKING AS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL TOOLS OF RECLAIMING AND AS I READ, RETURN EVEN IN IMAGINATION.

BECAUSE I DO THINK THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WE SEE WHERE POWER OFTEN DECIDES WHEN A STORY BEGINS.

PEOPLE OF POWER.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST RECEIPTS OF THAT POWER USUALLY IS THE ABILITY TO SAY WE PRESS THE TAPE HERE, WE PRESS START HERE, WE PRESS PAUSE HERE, AND TO SHAPE A BEGINNING IS OFTENTIMES TO SHAPE AN ENDING.

AND SO I THINK IN SOME WAYS WHEN SO MUCH EFFORT IS PUT TOWARDS DESTROYING ARCHIVE THAT DOES INDICATE TO ME THAT THE ARCHIVE IS ACTUALLY QUITE IMPORTANT.

THAT INCLUDES PALESTINIAN VOICES AND INCLUDES VOICES OF ANYBODY THAT BELONGS TO A MARGINALIZED OPPRESSED COMMUNITY.

IN THAT WAY I DO FEEL A SENSE OF COMPLETION AND I ALSO FEEL LIKE THIS HOPEFULLY IS THE BEGINNING FOR MYSELF AND FOR MANY OTHER PEOPLE TO REALLY CONTINUE TO TELL THE STORIES OF HOW WE GET HERE AND HOW WE STAY HERE.

>> DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHO YOU WOULD LIKE TO FIND THIS BOOK?

>> I THINK -- I THINK CERTAINLY ON ONE LEVEL ANYBODY WHO IS INTERESTED, SEEKING, QUESTIONING MOTHERHOOD.

AND AGAIN, I MEAN THAT SORT OF IN AN UNGENDERED SENSE.

CAREGIVING.

OF SHOWING UP FOR THAT TASK IN SOME WAY.

CERTAINLY PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING OR HAVE STRUGGLED WITH INFERTILITY.

AND I THINK ALSO FOLKS WHO ARE JUST KIND OF INTERESTED IN THE IDEA OF SURROGACY AS METAPHOR, TOO, BECAUSE I CERTAINLY TALK ABOUT IT IN THIS LITERAL SENSE BUT I ALSO AM REALLY INTERESTED IN THE IDEA OF SURROGACY AS SYMBOLISM FOR THE WAYS THAT WE CARE FOR EACH OTHER AND WE SHOW UP FOR EACH OTHER BECAUSE IT'S REALLY KIND OF LIKE THE MOST -- IT'S AN EXTREME EXAMPLE OF WHAT I THINK WE ARE DOING FOR EACH OTHER HOPEFULLY ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

AND THEN, I MEAN, I THINK ANYONE WHO'S BELONGED TO AN IDENTITY OR COMMUNITY THAT'S FACING AND HAS FACED ERASURE.

I THINK THIS BOOK IS A WAY OF TRYING TO COUNTER THAT AND WRITE AGAINST THAT.

>> HALA AYAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

THIS WAS SUCH A PLEASURE.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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