>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

SPIN AND MORE SPIN ON SIGNAL GATE, I TALKED A FORMER DEFENSE EDITOR CHUCK HAGEL FROM THE FOLLOW OF TEAM TRUMP'S SHOCKING INTELLIGENCE BLUNDER.

>>> U.S. DISDAIN FOR YOUR ON FULL DISPLAY.

EUROPEAN COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANTONIO COSTA JOINS ME ON WHAT THEY LEARNED FROM SIGNAL GATE.

>>> TRUMP VERSUS UNIVERSITIES, YALE PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHY HE IS CONSIDERING MOVING TO CANADA.

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>>> WELCOMED THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

YOU CAN SEE, READ, DIGEST IT ALL FOR YOURSELVES AS THE WHITE HOUSE TIES ITSELF IN KNOTS TRYING TO EXPLAIN AWAY ITS STAGGERING INTELLIGENCE THE ATLANTIC MAGAZINE HAS RELEASED ALL OF THE TOP LEVEL TEXT CHAIN THAT EDITOR-IN-CHIEF JEFFREY GOLDBERG WAS INCLUDED ON BY ACCIDENT.

IN A GROUP THREAD ON SIGNAL, COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE APP WITH VICE PRESIDENT, CIA DIRECTOR, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, AND OTHERS, THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PETE HEGSETH SHARED OPERATIONAL DETAILS ABOUT IMMINENT STRIKES ON HOUTHIS IN YEMEN, WRITING, WEATHER IS FAVORABLE, JUST CONFIRMED WITH THEM COME, WE ARE A GO FOR MISSION MUNCH.

HE SHARES PLANS IN EXTRAORDINARY DETAIL LIKE 1415 STRIKE DRONES ON TARGET.

THIS IS WHEN THE FIRST BOMBS WILL DROP.

THE ATLANTIC SAYS THAT THESE TEXTS WERE RECEIVED TWO HOURS BEFORE THE SCHEDULED START OF THE BOMBING OF HOUTHI POSITIONS.

TESTY INTELLIGENCE BRIEFINGS BEFORE CONGRESS, DEMOCRATS ARE DEMANDING ANSWERS AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> THIS SLOPPINESS, THIS INCOMPETENCE, DISRESPECT FOR OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND, IS ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE.

IT IS AN EMBARRASSMENT.

SENATOR, YOU NEED TO DO BETTER.

YOU NEED TO DO BETTER.

>> THIS WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, CORRECT?

>> NO.

WE WILL GET THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THIS CHAIN AND YOUR TESTIMONY WILL BE MEASURED CAREFULLY AGAINST ITS CONTENT.

>> EVEN ONE OR TWO REPUBLICANS ADMIT MISTAKES WERE MADE.

CHUCK HAGEL WAS A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM NEBRASKA BEFORE BEING TAPPED AS DEFENSE SECRETARY BY PRESIDENT OBAMA AND HE IS JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> DEFENSE SECRETARY AND STILL A REPUBLICAN, WE WILL GET TO WHAT KIND OF REPUBLICAN IN A MOMENT, DEIRDRE SENATOR JOHN BENNETT, FROM COLORADO, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, A WHOLE LOAD OF YOUR REACTION?

>> I THINK THAT SENATOR BENNET'S COMMENTS WHERE APPROPRIATE.

MY REACTION IS HIS AMAZEMENT, ASTOUNDING, IS THIS GROSS INCOMPETENCE, IS IT RECKLESSNESS, IS IT BOTH?

IT IS CERTAINLY CONFUSING.

WHEN YOU'VE GOT CONFUSION AT THE TOP WITH THE VERY MOST IMPORTANT NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTIONS THAT DEFEND OUR COUNTRY AND PROTECT OUR INTELLIGENCE AND HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK THAT SENATOR BENNET OR OTHER SENATORS IN THE HEARING YESTERDAY OVERSTATED ANYTHING I THINK THEY WERE RIGHT ON IT AND IN ADDITION, WHAT THE ATLANTIC, MR. GOLDBERG RELEASED TODAY, I THINK BACKS TRULY ASTOUNDING THAT WE WOULD SEE THAT RELEASED IN THE FORM OF A NONSECURE GOVERNMENT CHANNEL AND I NEVER HEARD OF THAT BEFORE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE.

>> IS GOING TO ASK, HAD YOU SEEN THIS BEFORE, LET ME ASK YOU ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THAT THESE WERE NOT WAR PLANS, THE STORY IS A HOAX, THE TYPICAL BLAME THE MESSENGER.

I WANT TO ASK TWO QUESTIONS, ARE THEY WAR PLANS, WHAT YOU HAVE READ?

THEY SEEM TO ME RULES OF ENGAGEMENT IN THE FIELD, I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK.

AND B, IS THIS INFORMATION THAT ORDINARILY WOULD BE CONSIDERED CLASSIFIED?

>> I THINK THAT IT IS INFORMATION THAT WOULD ORDINARILY BE CLASSIFIED FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

DETAILS OF A STRIKE, A WAR STRIKE THAT IS GOING TO KILL PEOPLE, DO DAMAGE, THAT IS THE INTENT OF IT.

I THINK THAT IS CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

YOU CAN PARSE WORDS OR PARSE DIMENSIONS OF THE ISSUE, IS IT A WAR PLAN OR WAR STRIKE?

IT IS ALL THE SAME AND IN MANY WAYS, YOU CAN SAY, THE SPECIFICS OF A WAR STRIKE, WHICH THIS LAID OUT, IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT AND PROBABLY SHOULD BE EVEN MORE CLASSIFIED, WAR PLANS.

ALL OF THOSE, I THINK, ARE CLASSIFIED.

>> IT IS INTERESTING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, MENTIONING THE USE OF SEMANTICS BECAUSE HEGSETH, OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS OR SO, DENIED, I DID NOT TEXT, WE DID NOT TEXT WAR PLANS.

IT IS NOT TRUE, IT IS UNTRUTHFUL, WOULD YOU AGREE?

THIS IS THE CURRENT DEFENSE SECRETARY OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> IT IS UNTRUTHFUL.

I'M SORRY TO SEE THAT FOR OBVIOUS REASONS BECAUSE THIS IS A BASELINE.

THIS IS A NEW ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS BARELY BEEN IN OFFICE TWO MONTHS AND OUR ALLIES, OUR FRIENDS, RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE HAVE DEPENDED ON FOR YEARS AND YEARS TO SHARE INTELLIGENCE, NOT JUST NATO BUT COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHEN THEY SEE THIS, THEY LOSE TRUST, THEY LOSE CONFIDENCE IN US.

I HEAR FROM AMBASSADORS ALL THE TIME, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO, WHAT SHOULD WE DO, WHAT ARE OUR ALTERNATIVES IF AMERICA IS DOING THIS?

THEN THEY SEE THIS KIND OF INCOMPETENCY THAT IS PUBLIC AND REFLECTED AND PRETTY CLEAR, THAT GOES DEEPER INTO THEIR MISTRUST AND LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN US AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.

THERE WILL BE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.

>> WHAT KIND OF CONSEQUENCES, I WANT TO FOLLOW YOUR LEAD.

NOT ONLY WERE THESE WAR PLANS, ATTACK PLANS, STRIKE PLANS PUBLIC, USED OVER THIS COMMERCIAL SATELLITE, IN VIOLATION OF PROTOCOL, I WILL GET TO THAT IN A SECOND, THEY SAID THE MOST AWFUL THINGS ABOUT EUROPEAN ALLIES.

IT WAS LIKE A KID'S COFFEE CLUTCH, THE EUROPEANS ARE PATHETIC, LET'S FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THIS AND MAKE THE EUROPEANS PAY, I'M FED UP WITH BAILING OUT THE EUROPEANS.

WHAT IS IT WITH THEM AND EUROPE?

>> I DON'T KNOW, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, WHAT IS IT WITH THEM AND EUROPE?

I THINK IT REFLECTS WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID.

EUROPEANS AND NATO ALLIES ARE FREELOADERS AND HAVE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF AMERICA SINCE WORLD WAR II.

TO SAY THOSE THINGS, AGAIN, IN OPEN CHANNELS, REALLY, JUST REFLEX WHERE THE PRESIDENT, I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION ARE.

BACK TO MY POINT ABOUT CONSEQUENCES AND HOW DANGEROUS THINGS LIKE THIS ARE, POST- WORLD WAR II WORLD ORDER WITH ALL OF ITS PROBLEMS AND ALL OF ITS FLAWS HAS WORKED OUT PRETTY WELL WE LED THAT WORLD ORDER BASED ON THE RULE OF LAW.

FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION, FREE TRADE, EVERYBODY HAS OPPORTUNITIES.

THERE HAS BEEN NO WORLD WAR III, NO NUCLEAR EXCHANGE, MORE PEOPLE FREE AND PROPER AS -- PROSPEROUS TODAY THAN EVER BEFORE.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING TODAY BY SAYING THESE KINDS OF THINGS AND MOVING THIS DIRECTION, YOU ARE UNDOING THE FOUNDATIONS OF THAT POST-WORLD WAR II WORLD ORDER.

THAT WILL CREATE, IF THAT HAPPENS, MATTER OF FACT, THAT WILL CREATE A WORLD ORDER THAT IS FRACTURED.

THERE WILL BE A VACUUM IN THE WORLD.

THERE WILL BE NEW LEADERS.

I DON'T LIKE THE ALTERNATIVES HERE, THE OPTIONS.

I DON'T THINK THAT THIS PRESIDENT AND THIS ADMINISTRATION UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHERE WE ARE HEADED IF WE WITHDRAW FROM OUR WESTERN ALLIANCES AND NATO.

THE PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT PULLING TROOPS OUT OF SOUTH KOREA, OUT OF JAPAN.

IT IS BECAUSE OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROJECT POWER AROUND THE WORLD.

AND BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL, YES WE HAD PROBLEMS, YES WE HAVE ISSUES, WE STILL DO, BUT YOU NEED TO MANAGE THOSE, YOU NEED TO GET BUT THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO.

WHEN I SAY CONSEQUENCES, CHRISTIANE, THIS IS WHAT I MEAN, LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.

ALWAYS ASK THE QUESTION, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, WHERE ARE WE GOING, HOW DOES THIS END?

THOSE ARE THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS AND WE ARE NOT ASKING THOSE.

>> I WANT TO ASK ONE BIG PICTURE QUESTION, WHEN YOU SAY, THE CONSEQUENCES WILL BE, I THINK THAT I'M INTERPRETING YOU RIGHT, AMERICA WILL GRADUALLY LOSE ITS LEADERSHIP WITH THE WORLD, YOU TALKED ABOUT A VACUUM, AND THERE WILL BE NEW LEADERS.

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CHINA, RUSSIA?

NOTABLY, NOBODY ON THIS COFFEE CLUTCH WHATEVER CLASSIFIED CONVERSATION BOTHERED TO MENTION THAT CHINA IS THE ONE THAT USES THAT SHIPPING ROUTE PERHAPS MORE THAN ANYBODY.

THEY KEPT BLAMING THE EUROPEANS.

WHY?

IS CHINA A FEAR FOR YOU TAKING OVER WORLD LEADERSHIP?

WHAT CHINA IS DOING AND I THINK THAT CHINA IS PROBABLY SITTING BACK, NOT ONLY DELIGHTING IN ALL OF THIS, PROBABLY SAYING, THIS IS SUCH GOOD FORTUNE, HOW HAVE WE BEEN SO LUCKY THAT THIS IS ALL HAPPENING?

BECAUSE WHAT CHINA IS DOING, I HEAR THIS FROM AMBASSADORS, BY THE WAY, AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, THEY ARE ALL OVER THE WORLD THING TO THESE COUNTRIES, YOU SEE WHERE AMERICA IS AND WHERE AMERICA IS GOING, YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM.

I, CHINA, WE CAN DO SOME THINGS WITH YOU, WE CAN HELP BUILD A NEW PORT FOR YOU AND HELP DO SOME OTHER THINGS.

I SAW THIS YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS IN THE SENATE WHEN I WOULD GO TO AFRICA, THESE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, I WOULD BE DRIVING IN FROM THE AIRPORT TO OUR EMBASSY AND I WOULD NOTICE A NEW SOCCER STADIUM OR A NEW HOSPITAL, I WOULD SAY, THAT IS VERY NICE TO THEY WOULD SAY, THE CHINESE BUILT IT.

THE CHINESE BUILT IT, YES, WITH ALL OF THEIR CHINESE LABOR AND EXTRACT 50 YEARS OF DEPOSITS OF MINERAL RIGHTS AND SO ON AND SO ON BUT THE CHINESE ARE GIVING ALTERNATIVES TO THESE COUNTRIES.

THE CHINESE WITH RUSSIA, TALK ABOUT A VACUUM.

IT WON'T BE THE SAME KIND OF WORLD THAT WE HAVE LIVED IN BECAUSE THE CHINESE WILL LEAD IT WITH THE RUSSIANS, WITH OTHERS AND WHERE WILL WE BE?

WE CAN'T DO THIS ALONE.

THIS MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, THIS IS A GREAT NATION, WE HAVE OUR FLAWS AND PROBLEMS AND WE WILL.

BUT WE LEAD THE WORLD MOST COUNTRIES BELIEVE IN THAT, FREEDOM, HUMAN RIGHTS, THE THINGS THAT ARE MOST IMPORTANT FOR LIFE, FOR PEOPLE.

CHINA DOES NOT OFFER THAT, RUSSIA DOES NOT OFFER THAT, NORTH KOREA OR ANY OF THEM.

>> LET ME JUST JUMP IN FOR A SECOND BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS TEAM SEEM TO THINK THAT ALL OF THOSE QUALITIES ARE WEAK, THAT IS FOR WEAK PEOPLE AND STRENGTH IS SOMETHING ELSE.

I WANT TO QUICKLY GO BACK WHEN YOU WERE DEFENSE SECRETARY, HOW WOULD A BATTLE PLAN HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED WITH THE PRINCIPLES?

WHAT IS THE OPERATIONAL EFFORTS OR THE SECURITY THAT NEEDS TO BE IN PLACE FOR THAT?

>> WE WOULD DISCUSS IT WITHIN THE PENTAGON IN SECURE SURROUNDINGS, SECURE ROOMS.

WE WOULD NOT TEXT EACH OTHER OR GO ON THE INTERNET AND DISCUSS IT WITH 15 PEOPLE.

WE WOULD HAVE SECURE ROOMS IN THE PENTAGON, THAT WOULD BE THE PENTAGON PIECE OF IT.

WHEN YOU WOODBRANCH THAT OUT, WHICH YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO WITH THE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, STATE DEPARTMENT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, IT WOULD BE IN THE SITUATION ROOM, THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT IS WHERE THOSE DISCUSSIONS TOOK PLACE.

THAT TOP-SECRET SITUATION ROOM IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

I DON'T EVER RECALL USING ANY KIND OF A VEHICLE OUTSIDE OF SECURE GOVERNMENT NETWORKS TO DISCUSS ANY OF THIS.

ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF YESTERDAY'S HEARING, THAT WAS BEFORE, ANYWAY, IT WAS A HEARING BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH, WHO ASKED A DIRECT QUESTION OF CIA DIRECTOR JOHN RATCLIFFE AND DNI TULSI GABBARD, LISTEN TO HOW THAT EXCHANGE WINS.

>> I'M CURIOUS, DID THIS CONVERSATION AT SOME POINT INCLUDE INFORMATION ON WEAPONS PACKAGES, TARGETS, OR TIMING?

>> NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

>> DIRECTOR GABBARD, SAME QUESTION.

>> SAME ANSWER AND DEFER TO THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE ON THAT QUESTION.

>> THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ANSWERS BUT YOU ARE SAYING THAT, THAT WAS NOT PART OF THE CONVERSATION, PRECISE OPERATIONAL ISSUES WERE NOT PART OF THIS CONVERSATION?

>> CORRECT.

>> IN THE FULL LIGHTNESS OF DAY WITH ALL OF THE TEXTS PUBLISHED, WE KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE.

>> YES, IT IS NOT TRUE.

>> WHAT ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY?

WHOSE HEAD SHOULD ROLL, IF ANYONE'S?

>> THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY.

THERE ALWAYS MUST BE ACCOUNTABILITY IN ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY GOVERNMENT, OF GOVERNMENT AND ESPECIALLY THOSE INSTITUTIONS REPRESENTED AT THAT TABLE YESTERDAY PLUS THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, PLUS THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

AND TO HAVE LEADERS OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS SAY, WHAT THEY SAID IN DENYING WHAT WAS ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSMISSION THAT WE NOW KNOW OF, THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO EARLIER.

THERE IS EITHER GROSS INCOMPETENCE HERE, CERTAINLY CONFUSION HERE, RECKLESSNESS.

DIDN'T THEY EVEN READ THOSE TRANSCRIPTS OR THEY ARE STRAIGHT OUT LYING.

THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY, ABSOLUTELY.

CONGRESS, I HOPE, WILL CONTINUE TO PURSUE THIS.

>> DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THE REPUBLICANS ARE PRETTY EXERCISED ABOUT IT.

SOME OF THEM HAVE SAID, YES, MISTAKES HAVE BEEN MADE, ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AND MOVE ON.

EVERYONE WANTS TO MOVE ON, THEY OF FIRMER COMMENTARY ON THIS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE DON'T KNOW IS WHAT YET, WHAT IS YET TO COME.

AFTER GOLDBERG RELEASED THE ENTIRE TEXT, WHICH WE NOW HAVE ALL SEEN, WHAT ELSE DON'T WE KNOW THAT IS YET TO COME OUT?

I SUSPECT THERE MAY BE MORE.

THE REPUBLICANS WILL BE IN A TOUGH SPOT HERE BECAUSE THE PUBLIC HAS SEEN THIS, THE WORLD HAS SEEN THIS, THE MEDIA IS ALL OVER IT.

I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE, EVEN REPUBLICANS SUPPORTING TRUMP IN THE CONGRESS, HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY HERE.

THEY HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE SOME RESPONSIBILITY THAT THEY'VE GOT THAT IS ONE OF CONGRESS ' MAJOR ROLES, RESPONSIBILITIES IN ITS ARTICLE ONE RESPONSIBILITY.

I HOPE THAT THEY WILL DO THAT.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU A POINT OF LAW AND FACT, ONE OF THE TEXTS, THE NSA DIRECTOR WALT WRITES, THE FIRST TARGET, THE TOP MISSILE GUY, POSITIVE I.D.

OF HIM WALKING INTO HIS GIRLFRIEND'S BUILDING AND IT NOW COLLAPSED.

IS THAT A GOOD ADJOURNMENT -- LEGITIMATE TARGET, CIVILIAN BUILDING, WHOEVER THAT WAS NOT CARRYING A MISSILE INTO THE BUILDING, IS THAT LEGITIMATE?

>> I WOULD SAY THIS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT ATTACK PLANS AND WHY YOU ARE ATTACKING AN INDIVIDUAL OR WHEREVER THAT INDIVIDUAL IS, YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO FACTOR IN COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

BECAUSE THERE WILL BE.

>> OKAY.

>> YOU GET LAWYERS IN THIS, SPECIFICS INTO IT, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO FACTOR ALL OF THAT IN.

I DON'T KNOW THIS IS A FIX OF WHAT WENT INTO THAT OVER WHAT THEY WERE REALLY LOOKING FOR I CAN'T TELL YOU -- >> ONE LAST QUESTION, AS YOU KNOW AMONGST REPUBLICANS TOO, THERE WAS A LOT OF DOUBT ABOUT THE COMPETENCE AND EXPERIENCE FOR THESE TOP JOBS OF PETE HEGSETH AND TULSI GABBARD.

SHE WAS ACCUSED OF HAVING HARBORING WARM THOUGHTS FOR THE DICTATORS IN RUSSIA AND IN SYRIA.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE REPUBLICANS MADE A MISTAKE BY CONFIRMING THEM?

>> I WOULD SAY THIS, AND I SAID THIS AT THE BEGINNING WHEN I WAS ASKED ABOUT THE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS AND INDIVIDUALS, WHAT YOU WILL ALWAYS SEE, IT WORKS ON ALL THE TIME, SEE HOW IT WORKS OUT.

THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PEOPLE THAT I WOULD HAVE RECOMMENDED OR IF I HAD BEEN IN THE SENATE, I WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST ALMOST ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THEY ARE EQUIPPED TO DO THE JOB.

THREE REQUISITES, INDISPENSABLE REQUISITES LEADERSHIP, CHARACTER, COURAGE, AND JUDGMENT.

AND I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE HAD IT.

>> GOT IT.

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL, FORMER SENATOR, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

IF THERE WERE ANY DOUBT ABOUT THAT TRUMP'S TEAM'S DISDAIN FOR THE EUROPEAN ALLIES, IT HAS BEEN MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR WITH THE RELEASE OF THE SIGNAL TEXT FROM THE ATLANTIC.

TOP U.S. OFFICIALS COMPLAINED ABOUT BAILING EUROPE OUT, CALLING THE CONTINENT FREELOADING AND PATHETIC IN WORDS THAT WOULD BE UNTHINKABLE EUROPEAN COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANTONIO COSTA IS URGING EUROPEAN NATO MEMBERS TO BECOME LESS DEPENDENT ON OTHERS, NAMELY, HE SAID, ON THE UNITED STATES.

THE U.S. ALSO MAKING EUROPE UNEASY AS TRUMP AND PUTIN SEEM TO BE COZYING UP.

THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT WAS FIRST ELECTED 25 YEARS AGO, TAKING THE WEST ON A ROLLER COASTER RIDE EVER SINCE.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE PUTIN ACTUALLY WANTS PEACE IN UKRAINE, HE APPEARS TO BE PULLING TRUCK INTO WHAT IS BEST FOR HIM.

I SPOKE TO ANTONIO COSTA ABOUT ALL OF THIS FROM BRUSSELS.

PRESIDENT ANTONIO COSTA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM >> HELLO, HOW ARE YOU, GOOD EVENING.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, THERE'S SO MUCH GOING ON RIGHT NOW, I WOULD LIKE YOUR REACTION TO WHAT APPEARS TO BE A MASSIVE MISTAKE IN RELEASING ON A TEXT TO JOURNALIST, BATTLE PLANS FOR A STRIKE ON HOUTHI REBELS A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

COMMENT ON PRIVATE MESSAGE BUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THE SAFETY ON THE RED SEA IS CRUCIAL FOR GLOBAL ECONOMY.

WHY WE LAUNCH AMERICAN OPERATION LAST FEBRUARY TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF TRADE.

>> IT IS INTERESTING YOU SHOULD SAY THAT BECAUSE NO DOUBT, YOU HAVE READ THE TEXT AND HEARD VICE PRESIDENT VANCE AND SECRETARY HEGSETH ESSENTIALLY DISSING THE EUROPEANS CALLING THE EUROPEANS FREELOADERS, CALLING THE EUROPEANS PATHETIC, SAYING THAT THE EUROPEANS SHOULD BE PAYING THE PRICE FOR THIS U.S. STRIKE BECAUSE THEY BENEFIT THE MOST.

THEY REALLY REVEALED WHAT THEY THINK OF THEIR EUROPEAN ALLIES TO >> FOR DECADES, OUR ALLIANCE HAS MADE EARTH STRONGER, STRONGER UNITED STATES, STRONGER WE ARE THE LARGEST TRADING PARTNERS IN THE WORLD.

WE ARE AT THE CORE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE.

WE MUST CHERISH THIS LONG- STANDING RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE IT IS A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP FOR AMERICANS AND VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP FOR EUROPEANS.

IT IS A WIN-WIN ALLIANCE AND WE NEED TO WORK ON THIS AND IMPROVE ON THIS.

>> HOW YOU CONVINCE TEAM TRUMP IT IS A WIN-WIN?

WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS HISTORICALLY CORRECT BUT THEY DON'T SEEM TO GET IT.

IN FACT, THEY SAID, WHY SHOULD WE BE BE DOING THIS MILITARY ACTION?

NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THE RED SEA, WHEN EUROPE USES IT MOST, THEY DON'T MENTION CHINA IT IS CRITICAL TO CHINA TOO.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CONVINCE TEAM TRUMP THAT THIS IS A GOOD ALLIANCE, TRANSIT ATLANTIC ALLIANCE?

BETTER THAN PERCEPTIONS AND SECONDLY, AFFECTS PROOF THE WORTH OF OUR ALLIANCE.

IN THE PAST, THE PRESENT, CERTAINLY IN THE FUTURE.

THAT OUR TRADE GROWTH DOUBLE OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.

IT IS BETTER FOR THE UNITED STATES AND IT IS BETTER FOR EUROPE SERVICES WE NEED TO IMPROVE OUR TRADE RELATIONS AND IT IS A REASON BECAUSE WE ARE NEGOTIATING WITH THE UNITED STATES TO AVOID TARIFFS WAR BECAUSE TARIFFS ARE VERY BAD.

TARIFFS AFFECT TAXES, TAXES PAID BY THE CONSUMERS.

TARIFFS INCREASE THE PRICES, BOOST INFLATION, AND IS BAD FOR BUSINESS, BAD FOR PEOPLE.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO IMPROVE OUR RELATION AND NOT DISTURB OUR RELATION.

>> IT IS ALMOST AS IF YOU'RE YOU SHOULD HAVE A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR MAIN ALLY, THE UNITED STATES.

LET ME ASK YOU TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS, THE EU TRADE COMMISSIONER HAS BEEN IN WASHINGTON, MEETING WITH HIS COUNTERPART AND HE SAYS THAT THE HARD WORK GOES ON.

THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER ROUND OF TARIFFS TRUMP IS THREATENING ON APRIL 2nd.

HE PUT 25% ON STEEL AND ALUMINUM AND THREATENED 200% ON FRENCH CHAMPAGNE ET CETERA AND EUROPEAN ALCOHOL.

HOW DO YOU THINK YOU WILL BE ABLE TO RESOLVE THIS?

>> TALKING.

WE ARE ALLIES, WE ARE PARTNERS, WE ARE FRIENDS.

PROBLEMS BETWEEN FRIENDS, WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TALK.

WHAT -- HAVE DONE THIS WEEK IN WASHINGTON, WILLING TO CONTINUE TO TALK AND NEGOTIATE.

IMPROVE OUR RELATIONSHIP BUT WE NEED TO PRESERVE WHAT WE HAVE DONE OVER THE LAST DECADES BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE BECAUSE THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF THE WORLD.

TRADE RELATIONS IS 30% OF THE GLOBAL TRADE IN THE WORLD.

IT REPRESENTS 40% OF THE GLOBAL GDP, DEBT.

ANY PROBLEM IN OUR ECONOMIC RELATIONS IS NOT ONLY BAD FOR AMERICAN ECONOMY, NOT ONLY BAD FOR EUROPEAN ECONOMY, IT IS VERY BAD FOR THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO IMPROVE OUR RELATIONSHIP BUT NOT DISTURB OUR RELATIONSHIP.

>> YES, THE PROBLEM HERE THOUGH IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY CUTTING THE CORD, CUTTING THE CORD WITH ITS HISTORIC ALLIES, AS YOU ARE.

THIS PROBLEM WITH TRADE, AS YOU IDENTIFIED, HE LOVES TARIFFS, HIM, THEY THOUGHT IT WAS NEGOTIATING PLOY, IT IS NOT, IT IS REAL.

HE HAS THROWN YOU IN THE DEEP BLUE SEA WHEN IT COMES TO SECURITY.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COPE WITH OVERNIGHT EMERGENCY LIKE THIS?

DO YOU BELIEVE THE AMERICANS WILL GIVE YOU TIME, FOR INSTANCE, TO IMPART DEFENSE SPENDING TO GET WHERE YOU NEED TO BE TO BE AUTONOMOUS OR INDEPENDENT OF U.S. SECURITY, AS THEY ARE DEMANDING?

>> 10 YEARS AGO, NATO ALLIES DECIDED TO INCREASE DIFFERENT SPENDING, 2% OF GDP BY 2024.

BESIDES THE LAST YEAR, 2024, ON AVERAGE, THE EUROPEAN ALLIES REACHED THIS TARGET OF 2%.

AND WE KNOW WE NEED TO DO MORE AND WE ARE PREPARED TO DO MORE.

NEXT JUNE, JUNE, THE NEXT NATO SUMMIT, WE WILL TAKE THE DECISION TO INCREASE OUR TARGETS TO FULFILL OUR CAPABILITIES.

WHAT AMOUNTS AFTER, UKRAINIAN INVASION BY RUSSIA, WE DECIDED IN THEIR SIDE, TO ASSUME GREATER RESPONSIBILITY IN OUR OWN DEFENSE.

JUST OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, WE INCREASED OUR DEFENSE SPENDING BY 30%.

WE ARE NOW PREPARING TO DO MORE, TO DO MORE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND TO DO MORE DEVELOPING OUR OWN CAPABILITIES TO ENSURE A MORE LARGER OWNERSHIP IN OUR OWN DEFENSE.

OF COURSE, WE DON'T WANT TO BREAK OUR RELATIONS, WE DON'T WANT TO BREAK OUR RELATION WITH UNITED STATES.

NOW, I THINK WE HAVE A CONFIDENT VISION, THE UNITED STATES ONCE THERE TO BE GREATER ASSUMED RESPONSIBILITY AND WE ARE WORKING TO ASSUME THIS GREATER RESPONSIBILITY IN OUR OWN DEFENSE.

>> IT IS SOMETHING THAT TAKES TIME.

IN THE MEANTIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN SEEN TO HAVE SWITCHED HIS ALLEGIANCE TOWARDS THE ADVERSARY, RUSSIA, AND AWAY FROM UKRAINE AND EUROPE.

BUT BECAUSE OF THE RESPONSES FROM PRESIDENT PUTIN, WHICH HAVE NOT AGREED, PUTIN HAS NOT AGREED TO ANY OF THE CEASE- FIRES, IT ALL COMES WITH MASSIVE CONDITIONS, UNLIKE UKRAINE, WHICH HAS AGREED, TRUMP BASICALLY SAID, AFTER THE LATEST TALKS, PUTIN LOOKS LIKE HE MAY BE DRAGGING HIS FEET WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT TRUMP NEEDS TO KNOW AND TEAM TRUMP, ABOUT PUTIN'S NEGOTIATING TACTICS?

DO YOU THINK HE WANTS PEACE >> WE APPRECIATE A LOT THE EFFORT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP CREATED NEW MOMENTUM FOR LASTING PEACE IN UKRAINE.

BUT WE ARE VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT MR. PUTIN AND ABOUT RUSSIA BECAUSE WE NEED TO LEARN THE LESSONS FROM THE PAST.

IN THE PAST, RUSSIA NEVER RESPECTED THEIR COMMITMENTS ABOUT UKRAINE.

AS YOU KNOW, IN BUDAPEST, UKRAINE AGREED TO GIVE BACK THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL FROM THE PREVIOUS SOVIET UNION TO RUSSIA.

AND RUSSIA DOES NOT RESPECT THAT TERRITORY INTEGRITY OF UKRAINE, DOES NOT RESPECT THE BODY OF UKRAINE, DOES NOT RESPECT THE PEACE IN UKRAINE.

THEN STARTS THE WAR IN THE EASTERN PART OF UKRAINE.

AND FINALLY, IN 2022, LAUNCH A FULL-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE IN WAR.

WHY WE ARE STILL IN WAR.

WE ARE VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT MR. PUTIN.

THAT IS WHY THIS IS NOT THE MOMENT TO RELEASE THE PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

IF WE WANT PEACE, WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN UKRAINE FOR PEACE, STRENGTH THE OPINION POSITION TO ANY PEACE NEGOTIATION AND STRENGTH THE POSITION OF UKRAINE TO PRESERVE PEACE AFTER THESE AGREEMENTS.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE SUPPORTING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EFFORTS BUT WE ARE VERY SKEPTICAL TO RUSSIAN POSITION.

AND WHAT IS EFFECTIVELY THE WILL OF RUSSIA TO COME TO PEACE.

WE WILL JUDGE PUTIN, NOT BY THE WORDS BUT BY THEIR ACTS.

>> THAT IS CLEAR.

CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME, PRESIDENT COSTA, WHAT YOU MAKE OF UPCOMING VISIT, ALMOST LIKE THE U.S., TRUMP, WHO SAID, I WILL GET GREENLAND ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, AFTER SAYING THAT THE WIFE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT WILL COME ON A PERSONAL TRIP THIS WEEK, NOW THE VICE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, WHO IS MEANT TO BE COMING TO GREENLAND THIS WEEK, THE GREENLAND AND DANISH GOVERNMENTS HAVE CALLED THIS VERY PROVOCATIVE AND AGGRESSIVE.

THEY HAVE NOT INVITED THIS U.S. DELEGATION.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THIS?

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS U.S. ADMINISTRATION WILL ANNEX TERRITORY, AND DATE TERRITORY, ECONOMICALLY CRIPPLE CANADA OR GREENLAND IN ORDER TO TAKE THEM OVER?

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

>> ALLOW ME TO LEVEL, FIRST A IS A PART OF THE TERRITORY OF THE KINGDOM OF DENMARK.

THE INTEGRITY IS VALUE THAT WE NEED TO PROTECT.

OUT OF QUESTION TO PUT ANY THREAT ABOUT THE INTEGRITY OF EUROPEAN MEMBER STATE.

SECOND POINT, AS I UNDERSTOOD ON THE LAST HOURS, THE SCOPE OF THE VISIT CHANGED.

NOW THE VICE PRESIDENT, VANCE IS VISITING UNITED STATES MILITARY BASE IN GREENLAND.

AND I HAVE NOTHING TO COMMENT ON THIS.

AND THE GOVERNMENT OF DENMARK SAID THAT PROBLEM, DENMARK IS VERY CLOSE ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES.

THEY HAVE A CLEAR AGREEMENT DIFFERENCE ON GREENLAND.

UNITED STATES ALREADY MILITARY IMPORTANT INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE DEFENSE AND SECURITY ON GREENLAND.

THIS IS COMMON COMMITMENT AND COMMON CONSENT OF EUROPE, DENMARK, AND UNITED STATES.

>> YOUR VERY DIPLOMATIC AND I SEE THE U.S. WIGGLED IT SO IT IS NOT UNWELCOME VISIT TO THE CAPITAL OF GREENLAND.

PRESIDENT ANTONIO COSTA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> TRUMP'S AMERICA STARTED TO CHALLENGE AND REDEFINE ACADEMIC FREEDOM.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS SOUNDING THE ALARM.

YALE PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY IS THE AUTHOR OF, ERASING HISTORY " HOW FASCIST REWRITE TO CONTROL THE FUTURE.

HOW NEW TEACHING GUIDELINES ARE STOKING A CULTURE OF FEAR AND WHY HE IS TAKING DRASTIC MEASURES AS A RESULT.

>> THANKS.

PROFESSOR, THANKS FOR TALKING >> IT IS GREAT TO BE IN CONVERSATION DURING THIS EXISTENTIAL TIME.

>> Reporter: THINK ABOUT IN WRITING ABOUT AUTHORITARIANISM QUITE A WHILE.

YOU WROTE A PIECE FOR THE GUARDIAN IN WHICH YOU SAID, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LEAVING THE COUNTRY DOWN THE PATH OF EDUCATIONAL AUTHORITARIANISM.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THAT MEANS THAT HE IS CREATING A CULTURE OF FEAR IN UNIVERSITIES, THEY HAVE DONE THIS IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA CREATING CULTURE OF FEAR IN K- 12 EDUCATION.

AUTHORITARIANISM REQUIRES A CULTURE OF FEAR AND REQUIRES FEELING LIKE THE STATE IS ALWAYS LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER, FEELING LIKE THERE ARE VAGUE RULES THAT YOU CAN BE PUNISHED FOR AND YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED TO REPORT YOU.

THERE'S OFFICIALS STATE IDEOLOGY AND IF YOU VIOLATE THE GET IN TROUBLE.

>> WHAT SPARKED YOUR LATEST PIECE FOR THE GUARDIAN WAS THIS, DEAR COLLEAGUE LETTER THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION ISSUED, THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUED ON FEBRUARY 14th, IT WAS A LETTER TO AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND IT REINTERPRETED FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS LAW.

LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT, IT SAYS THAT EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS HAVE TOXIC WASTE INDOCTRINATED STUDENTS WITH THE FALSE PREMISE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS BUILT UPON SYSTEMIC AND STRUCTURAL RACISM AND ADVANCED DISCRIMINATORY POLICIES AND PRACTICES AND PROPONENTS OF THESE DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES AND ATTEMPT TO FURTHER JUSTIFY THEM, PARTICULARLY DURING THE LAST FOUR YEARS UNDER THE BANNER OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION, DEI, SMUGGLING RACIAL STEREOTYPES AND EXPLICIT RACE CONSCIOUSNESS INTO EVERYDAY PROGRAMMING AND DISCIPLINE.

THIS AND TELL US WHY YOU WERE SO CONCERNED ABOUT THIS BUT YOU SAID THAT THIS IS THE SIGN THAT THAT IS THE INTENTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO MOVE TOWARD THIS PATH?

>> A DEAR COLLEAGUE LETTER ANNOUNCES IT IS THE INTENTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO MOVE TOWARD THIS PATH.

LINDA McMAHON'S FINAL MISSION STATEMENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, SHE MENTIONS PATRIOTIC EDUCATION AS THE GOAL HERE TO IMPOSE ON K-12 AND UNIVERSITIES.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS FOUNDED AND BUILT UPON SYSTEMATIC RACISM AND INCLUSION.

IT IS PART OF OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS THAT WE WANTED TO TAKE MORE INDIGENOUS LAND.

SLAVERY, THE UNITED STATES IS UP ON SLAVERY THERE IS NO FACTUAL ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT.

WHEN YOU BEGIN BY SAYING THAT UNIVERSITIES IN K-12 SCHOOLS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH FACTS, YOU ARE ALREADY ON A VERY PROBLEMATIC PLAYING FIELD.

PART OF THE POINT OF THESE GUIDELINES IS TO BE VAGUE BECAUSE IT ALLOWS WIDE LATITUDE TO TARGET PROFESSORS AND ENCOURAGE STUDENTS TO REPORT PROFESSORS FOR ANYTHING THAT MIGHT SUGGEST THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS NOT ALWAYS THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH AND WAS ESSENTIALLY FREE FROM SIN.

>> AS PART OF THE ISSUE TO TAKE IT FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION, CONSERVATIVES WOULD SAY THAT PROGRESSIVES OR NON- CONSERVATIVES, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY, ARE JUST MAD BECAUSE THEY ARE OFFERING AN ALTERNATIVE IDEOLOGY.

THEY'RE REPLACING ONE IDEOLOGY WITH ANOTHER.

I THINK THAT THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND THEY GET TO DO THAT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> THERE'S NO SUCH THING, IN A DEMOCRACY, THE STATE CANNOT IMPOSE A REQUIRED PATRIOTIC IDEOLOGY.

UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT THERE IN A DEMOCRACY TO STOKE EGOS OF THE CITIZENS OF A COUNTRY.

JUST IMAGINE WHAT YOUR CARTOON VISION OF AN AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY, IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SCHOOLS IS TO TELL STUDENTS TO LOVE THEIR COUNTRY AND NOT QUESTION IT.

IN A DEMOCRACY, UNIVERSITIES ARE THERE TO TEACH THE FACTS, THEY'RE NOT THERE TO BREED PATRIOTISM.

THESE DOCUMENTS EXPLICITLY TELL US THE PURPOSE OF SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES IS TO CREATE PATRIOTIC CITIZENS.

THAT IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF UNIVERSITIES, THAT IS NATIONALIST EDUCATION, THAT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC EDUCATION.

WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING BY BANNING CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY BANNING BLACK HISTORY, BECAUSE YOU'RE BANNING THE STUDY OF UNDER SLAVERY AND JIM CROW THAT HAVE REPERCUSSIONS TODAY.

YOU ARE BANNING THAT WITH THESE VAGUE GUIDELINES, THEY SAY, WE ARE NOT BANNING THAT BUT THE GUIDELINES ARE SO VAGUE, YOU WOULD BE FOOLISH TO TEST WHETHER OR NOT IT IS REALLY BANNING THAT.

>> Reporter: WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF THAT IS THE CASE?

I THINK THAT OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, THEY ARE VAGUE WHICH MEANS THERE'S ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION.

WHY DO YOU SAY THE BIGNESS ITSELF IS A PROBLEM?

>> A CONSERVATIVE INTELLECTUAL IN A NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE, WHERE I WAS ALSO QUOTED, SAID, TERMS LIKE DEI ARE VAGUE WHICH ALLOW US WIDE LATITUDE TO TARGET PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY LEAVE IT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION.

THAT IS THE POINT.

WE CAN TARGET ANYTHING WE WANT BY CALLING IT DEI.

AND THAT IS WHAT RUFO, ONE OF THE MAIN POLITICAL ACTIVISTS BEHIND THE STRATEGY SAID, HE SAID, EARLY ON, WE WILL CALL THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND PEOPLE WILL WANT TO TAKE IT DOWN.

THIS IS EVOCATIVE OF THE REPUBLICANS TO SOUTHERN STRATEGY OF CALLING ANYTHING THEY DON'T LIKE WELFARE AND THAT WOULD CREATE NEGATIVE ATTITUDES TOWARDS IT.

THE VAGUENESS DOES LEAVE ROOM FOR CONTESTATION.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO IN FRONT OF THE SCHOOL BOARD, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO IN FRONT OF A TITLE SIX OFFICE WITH A LAWYER TO DEFEND THE INTERPRETATION?

THAT YOUR TEACHING ABOUT SLAVERY OR JIM CROW OR MORTGAGE REDLINING DOES NOT FIT, DOES NOT FALL UNDER THESE PROHIBITED GUIDELINES.

THAT IS REALLY A DISTRACTION FROM YOUR WORK, LEGAL FEES ARE VERY EXPENSIVE.

MOST TEACHERS TEACHERS AND PROFESSORS, WOULD LIKE TO AVOID THAT.

>> Reporter: AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN ENGINES OF TREMENDOUS WEALTH, TREMENDOUS INNOVATION.

THERE'S A REASON WHY PEOPLE WANT TO COME FROM ALL OF THE WORLD TO STUDY AT THESE UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING PEOPLE LIKE PETER THIEL AND ELON MUSK, BECAUSE OF THEIR ROLE IN CREATING PRIVATE WEALTH THROUGH THE ACCUMULATION OF KNOWLEDGE.

WHY IS IT, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, THAT THESE ACTIVISTS ARE SO, AND THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SO -BENT ON BRINGING UNIVERSITIES TO HEAL?

>> CAN I BE FRANK, MICHELLE?

>> Reporter: I HOPE SO.

>> THEY ARE DESTROYING MY COUNTRY, INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING MY COUNTRY, THEY SAY THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AN ALLY.

THEY ARE TAKING DOWN THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY, TAKING DOWN THE SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES TO ENRICH THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS.

THEY ARE THROWING SCAPEGOATS TO WORKING PEOPLE, TRANS WOMEN, BLACK AMERICANS, IT IS ABOUT JUICING UP DOMINANT GROUP VICTIMS.

IT IS ABOUT TELLING WHITE AMERICANS, YOU ARE THE REAL VICTIMS.

ONCE WE TARGET ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO MADE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WEREN'T THE REAL VICTIMS, ALL OF THE PEOPLE MAKING YOU FEEL GUILTY FOR INHERITING YOUR HOUSE FROM YOUR PARENTS WHEN THEY COULD NOT INHERIT A HOUSE FROM YOUR PARENTS, ONCE WE DO THAT, EVERYTHING IS GOOD FOR YOU AND WE CAN DISMANTLE THE COUNTRY, THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON.

STARTING OUT WITH THE UNIVERSITIES IS VITAL.

YOU TAKE DOWN THE UNIVERSITIES, YOU TELL UNIVERSITIES ARE JUST FOR JOB SKILLS, THEY ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS ANYMORE.

YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GO AND YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GO TO UNIVERSITIES.

YOU MAKE STUDENT LOANS MORE DIFFICULT, MORE EXPENSIVE, PRIVATIZE THEM.

YOU DELEGITIMIZE THE UNIVERSITY.

'S >> Reporter: ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IS A SOURCE OF PARTICULAR IRE TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, ALSO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO MADE A POINT OF MAKING A PILGRIMAGE TO THE UNIVERSITY TO EXPRESS THEIR OUTRAGE AT WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE ANTI-SEMITIC DEMONSTRATIONS THAT STARTED IN THE WAKE OF ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA.

COLUMBIA AGREED TO LIST OF TRUMP DEMANDS TO REINSTATE SOME $400 MILLION IN FEDERAL FUNDING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION REVOKED AS THEY SAID FOR PUNISHMENT FOR COLUMBIA'S FAILURE TO PROTECT ITS JEWISH STUDENTS.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THE REALITY OF IT IS, THERE ARE A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA THAT DID FEEL THREATENED AND DEMEANED BY THESE DEMONSTRATIONS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND THEY SAY THAT THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS CAPITULATION ON COLUMBIA'S PART BUT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING, MAYBE THIS WAS A PRAGMATIC STEP TO TRY TO SURVIVE THIS ERA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THERE ARE TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF ARAB STUDENTS THAT FELT INCREDIBLY THREATENED AT COLUMBIA, WHAT ABOUT THEM?

THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO, FIRST.

SECONDLY, AT YALE, I'M SURE THIS IS TRUE OF COLUMBIA, THERE WERE A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF JEWISH STUDENTS IN THOSE PROTESTS BECAUSE WHO ON CAMPUS CARES THE MOST ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF ISRAEL?

ONE GROUP ARE JEWISH STUDENTS.

THE WEIGHTED MINISTRATION IS USING THE TERM, ANTI-SEMITISM, IS SYNONYMOUS WITH LEFTISM IS IRONIC BECAUSE THE LARGE MAJORITY OF JEWISH AMERICANS VOTED FOR KAMALA HARRIS.

COMPARABLE TO BLACK AMERICANS.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IS USING THE TERM ANTI-SEMITISM AS SHORT JEWISH AMERICANS LIKE ME, WHO ARE HIGHLY CRITICAL OF ISRAEL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PHRASE, RIGHT TO EXIST, IT MEANS.

I DON'T WANT TO TAKE DOWN THE STATE OF ISRAEL, I'M SOME KIND OF ZIONISTS.

HOWEVER, I'M VERY CRITICAL OF THE BEHAVIOR OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

THERE WERE PLENTY OF STUDENTS, TIED FOR THE LARGEST IDENTITY GROUP IN THE PROTESTS.

WHY DON'T THEY COUNT AS JEWISH?

THE ADMINISTRATION IS SAYING THERE ARE GOOD JEWISH PEOPLE AND BAD JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE GOOD ONES SUPPORT ISRAEL'S ACTIONS IN GAZA AND BAD JEWS ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE HIGHLY CRITICAL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND PUSH FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS BECAUSE PALESTINIANS DESERVE EVERY BIT OF POLITICAL EQUALITY THAT JEWS, JEWISH PEOPLE DESERVE.

>> Reporter: YOU ARGUE THAT USING THE PRETEXT OF JEWISH SAFETY TO JUSTIFY CRACKDOWNS ON DISSENT AND CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP.

YOU HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT YOU THINK THAT THIS REINFORCES ANTI-SEMITIC TROPES, CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT QUESTION MARK >> REINFORCING ANTI-SEMITIC TROPES ALL ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WHAT ARE THE MOST TOXIC ANTI- SEMITIC TROPES?

JEWS CONTROL THE INSTITUTIONS.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY REINFORCING THIS.

ANY YOUNG AMERICAN WILL THINK, REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY TOOK DOWN THE WORLD'S GREATEST UNIVERSITY SYSTEM ON BEHALF OF JEWISH SAFETY?

THIS WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY BOOKS.

THE HISTORY OF THIS ERA WILL SAY THAT JEWISH PEOPLE WERE THE SLEDGEHAMMER FOR FASCISM.

IF WE DON'T SPEAK OUT, IF WE AMERICAN JEWS DO NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST THIS, THIS WILL BE A HISTORY AS AMERICANS.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE AS AN AMERICAN THAT I HAVE BEEN FEARFUL OF OUR STATUS AS EQUAL AMERICANS.

NOT BECAUSE OF THE PROTESTS ON CAMPUS, WHICH AS I SAID, HAD A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS IN THEM.

BUT BECAUSE WE ARE SUDDENLY AT THE CENTER OF POLITICS, U.S.

POLITICS.

IT IS NEVER GOOD TO BE IN THE CROSSHAIRS FOR US.

AND WE ARE BEING USED TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY.

THE HISTORY BOOKS ARE GOING TO BE HARSH UNLESS WE, JEWISH AMERICANS, CAN SAY, THIS SHOULD NOT BE DONE IN OUR NAME.

FINALLY, BY FOCUSING ON US, THEY ARE ERASING THE ATROCITIES AND HORRORS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN GAZA.

THEY ARE SHIFTING THE TRUE VICTIMS HERE, NOT JUST PALESTINIANS WHO ARE HERE, BUT THE VICTIMS IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S POLICIES.

>> Reporter: I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS HERE, FIRST OF ALL, WHY DO YOU THINK COLUMBIA HAS AGREED TO THESE TERMS?

INCLUDING BANNING FACE MASKS AND EMPOWERING CAMPUS POLICE OFFICERS TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM CAMPUS OR ARREST THEM AS NEEDED.

WHY WOULD COLUMBIA, NOT A POOR INSTITUTION, AGREE TO THESE TERMS?

>> TWO REASONS.

FIRST OF ALL, THERE ARE PEOPLE WITHIN THE COLUMBIA STRUCTURE WHO ARE ESSENTIALLY BETRAYING COLUMBIA.

THEY AGREE WITH THIS IDEOLOGICAL ATTACK.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC, THEY ARE NOT SEEING IT, THEY ARE TRAITORS TO THEIR OWN INSTITUTIONS.

THAT IS ONE POINT.

THE SECOND POINT IS THAT THIS, COLUMBIA IS COMPLETELY BENDING TO AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING ACROSS UNIVERSITIES, MICHELLE, WE ARE SEEING THIS CULTURE OF FEAR, THIS IDEA IF WE JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY, EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY.

I'M SEEING THIS EVERYWHERE AND IT IS ONE REASON THAT I AM PROBABLY LEAVING THE UNITED STATES FOR TORONTO.

>> Reporter: REALLY?

I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT YOUR OWN COURSE HERE?

YOU FEEL STRONGLY ENOUGH ABOUT THIS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY?

>> YES.

BECAUSE I WOULD NOT DO THIS IF I SAW ALL OF OUR UNIVERSITIES BANDING TOGETHER.

IT IS NOT JUST THE UNIVERSITIES, MICHELLE.

IT IS THE LAW FIRMS, ALL OF OUR AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

WHEN PAUL WEISS CAPITULATED, PART OF THE REASON THEY CAPITULATED, OTHER LAW FIRMS INSTEAD OF DEFENDING THEM, WERE GOING AFTER THEIR CLIENTS.

WE SEE UNIVERSITIES SAYING THINGS INCLUDING MY UNIVERSITY, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP OUR HEAD DOWN SO WE ARE NOT TARGETED.

AS SOON AS I HEARD THAT VOCABULARY, I KNEW IT MIGHT BE THE GAME IS OVER.

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BANDING TOGETHER IF YOU SAY, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP OUR HEAD DOWN.

>> Reporter: I WANT TO GET BACK TO YOU THOUGH, YOU ARE LEAVING?

ANY REGRETS ABOUT THAT?

YOU FEEL YOU ARE ABANDONING THE FIGHT OR HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

>> I THINK THAT CANADA IS CENTRALLY IN THE FIGHT RIGHT NOW.

I WOULD RETURN TO THE UNITED STATES, MY HOME, IN A HEARTBEAT AND I HOPE, I SAY THAT I'M PROBABLY MOVING TO CANADA BECAUSE I MIGHT RETURN TO YALE.

IF THEY ESSENTIALLY ALLOW ME WITH LEAVING BECAUSE THE POLITICAL CLIMATE FOR THE UNIVERSITIES AND POLITICAL CLIMATE FOR FREEDOM LOOKS GRIM IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE FACE A FASCIST REGIME.

I CAN BEST FIGHT IT IN A COUNTRY THAT IS DEDICATED TO THE VALUES THAT I LOVE, THE VALUES THAT AMERICA, THE UNITED STATES, WAS FORMED ON, FREEDOM AND EQUALITY.

CANADA DEFINITELY CENTERS THOSE VALUES.

I HAVE TWO BLACK CHILDREN, TWO BLACK JEWISH CHILDREN.

THE UNITED STATES, TO ERASE, TO USE ONE OF THEIR IDENTITIES AS A SLEDGEHAMMER FOR FASCISM AND TRY TO ERASE ANOTHER OF THEIR IDENTITIES IS DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC FOR ME.

THERE ARE ALL OF THESE LONG- STANDING FEATURES OF THIS COUNTRY LIKE MASS INCARCERATION THAT I WORRY, VIOLENT POLICING, OBVIOUSLY WITH TWO BLACK CONCERNED ME AS WELL.

THIS IS MY HOME, UNITED STATES IS MY HOME, I'M A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN AND I WANT TO FIGHT FOR OUR COUNTRY.

I DO HAVE TWO SMALL CHILDREN, TWO YOUNG CHILDREN AND I DO THINK THAT THE INSTITUTION THAT I LOVE ARE BEING EXISTENTIALLY THREATENED AND THEY ARE NOT DEFENDING THEMSELVES IN A WAY THAT GIVES ME ANY KIND OF HOPE THAT FREE INQUIRY WILL STILL BE POSSIBLE.

>> Reporter: PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE GIVEN US A LOT TO THINK ABOUT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHELLE.

>> WHAT A ROBUST DEFENSE, ESPECIALLY THE NOTION THAT FOR ALL OF OUR PROFESSIONS AND ATTACK ON ONE IS ATTACK ON ALL.

>>> FINALLY, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP MOVES TO A BEEN VOTING PROTECTIONS, WE REMEMBER THE GREATS OF YESTERYEAR THAT FOUGHT TO DEFEND THEM, SIX YEARS AGO DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

ADDRESSED CROWDS IN MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA, THE FINAL DAY OF HISTORIC MARCH FROM SELMA TO PROTEST VOTING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACK AMERICANS, STANDING AT THE STEPS OF THE STATE CAPITAL BUILDING, HE DELIVERED ONE OF HIS GREATEST SPEECHES, HOW LONG, NOT LONG, HIS WORDS WERE GUIDING LIGHT FOR THE NATION.

THE ARC OF THE MORAL UNIVERSE IS LONG BUT BENDS TOWARD JUSTICE.

THESE WORDS MIGHT SOUND QUAINT TODAY, SUBJECT TO THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF OUTRAGEOUS FORTUNE AS SHAKESPEARE MIGHT HAVE SAID.

OR THEY COULD IGNITE HOPE AND ACTION TO DEFEND A BRIGHTER FUTURE.

THAT IS IT FOR A PROGRAM TONIGHT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR A NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.