>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> TRUMP SAID HE WOULD, AND NOW HE HAS, ANOTHER UNIVERSITY STUDENT HAS BEEN ARRESTED AND DETAINED BY I.C.E., IN THIS SHOCKING FOOTAGE.

>>> THEN, WHO IS GOVERNMENT?

AS THE TRUMP/MUSK PURGES CONTINUE, WE LOOK AT THE PEOPLE AFFECTED, AND WHY THEIR WORK MATTERS, WITH MICHAEL LEWIS AND W. KAMAU BELL.

>>> AND THE OSCAR- WINNING PALESTINIAN DIRECTOR HAMDAN BALLAL ATTACKED IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK RECOUNTS HIS STORY.

>>> PLUS, WHAT NEXT FOR U.S. WHY THAT RELATIONS IN THESE UNPREDICTABLE TIMES?

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT'S HAPPENED AGAIN.

A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, AFTER THE ARREST OF A GREEN CARD- HOLDING COLUMBIA GRADUATE, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IT'S THE FIRST ARREST OF MANY TO COME.

CALLING OUT STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA AND OTHER UNIVERSITIES WHO HE SAYS ARE ENGAGED IN PRO- TERRORIST, ANTI-SEMITIC, ANTI-AMERICAN ACTIVITY.

NOW LOOK AT THIS VIDEO AND LISTEN.

IT SHOWS IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS DETAINING RUMEYSA OZTURK.

SHE'S A TURKISH GRADUATE AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY WITH A VALID STUDENT VISA.

SHE'S ARRESTED, SCREAMING IN FEAR, BY I.C.E.

AGENTS IN MASKS, HOODIES, AND UNMARKED CARS.

IT'S THE KIND OF IMAGE YOU MIGHT SEE IN IRAN, RUSSIA, BELARUS, OR ANY NUMBER OF AUTHORITARIAN STATES.

OZTURK HAS BEEN FORCIBLY TRANSPORTED TO DETENTION IN LOUISIANA.

A DHS SPOKESPERSON ACCUSES HER OF SUPPORTING HAMAS.

THEY DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE.

AND NO CHARGES HAVE BEEN BROUGHT.

HER BROTHER SAYS SHE'S VICTIM OF A TRUMP-LED WITCH HUNT.

APART FROM EXPRESSING HER OPINION WITHOUT ENGAGING IN ANY PROVOCATIVE ACTION, SHE'S DONE NOTHING ELSE, SHE SAYS.

IT IS THE SAME PLAYBOOK USED AT THE CASE AT COLUMBIA.

SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT AMERICA AND THE CONSTITUTION, AS THIS ADMINISTRATION RACHETS UP ITS WAR ON CIVIL LIBERTIES, WHILE FRAMING THEIR ACTION AS PART OF THEIR FOREIGN POLICY AGENDA.

VINCENT WARREN IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, AND HE'S JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THIS IS GETTING REALLY SERIOUS, AND IT'S ALSO FOLLOWING WHAT TRUMP SAYS IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND IT'S --IT'S --YOU KNOW, IT'S HAPPENING.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS LATEST, AND WHEN YOU SAW THE VIDEO WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO IT?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE EVERYONE OF YOUR LISTENERS TO REWATCH THAT VIDEO.

IT IS SHOCKING.

IT IS -- IT TUGS AT THE HEARTS OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY.

HERE, YOU HAVE SOMEONE THAT IS LEAVING --WALKING DOWN THE STREET AND SHE'S ACCOSTED BY PEOPLE WEARING HOODS, PEOPLE WEARING MASKS, THAT FORCIBLY TAKE HER PHONE, TAKE HER BACKPACK.

SHE SCREAMS.

IN ANOTHER VIDEO, YOU CAN HEAR ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO IS FILMING SAYING, WHAT IS THIS, A KIDNAPPING?

AND THEY'RE LIKE, NO, WE'RE THE POLICE, AND THE PERSON SAYS, YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE THE POLICE.

AND THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE THE POLICE, AND THEY'RE NOT ACTING LIKE THE POLICE.

THIS IS THE TYPE OF THINGS THAT HAPPENS IN AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND, IN FACT, IT'S THE REASON WHY, FOR OVER 100 YEARS, IMMIGRANTS HAVE BEEN COMING TO THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE THEY THINK THIS IS THE TYPE OF THING THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE.

BUT I THINK ANYBODY WATCHING THIS, I ACTUALLY, JUST TAKING MY LAWYER HAT OFF FOR A MINUTE, I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THIS WAS MY DAUGHTER, IF THIS WAS MY NIECE.

HOW CAN WE TREAT PEOPLE IN THIS MANNER?

SHE'S SHOCKED BY WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND I THINK THAT WHEN WE TAKE A LOOK AT IT, WE ACTUALLY SEE THAT THIS IS WHAT THE FACE OF UNFOLDING AUTHORITARIANISM LOOKS LIKE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS -- >> IT IS TRULY DRAMATIC, AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU SAID, HOW COULD IT HAPPEN, BUT WHY IS IT HAPPENING?

THE MASSACHUSETTS ATTORNEY GENERAL ANDREA JOY CAMPBELL HAS SAID THE FOOTAGE OF THE ARREST, A STUDENT HERE LEGALLY, IS DISTURBING.

BASED ON WHAT WE NOW KNOW, IT'S ALARMING THAT THE FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION CHOSE TO AMBUSH AND DETAIN HER, APPARENTLY TARGETING A LAW ABIDING INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE OF HER POLITICAL VIEWS.

THIS ISN'T PUBLIC SAFETY, IT'S INTIMIDATION THAT WILL AND SHOULD BE CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED IN COURT.

DO YOU ANTICIPATE IT GETTING ITS FAIR HEARING IN COURT?

SHE'S BEEN CARTED OFF TO LOUISIANA, WHICH WE KNOW, AND PLEASE, YOU KNOW, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, MAY BE EASIER TO BE DEPORTED FROM.

WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HER BEING IN LOUISIANA?

>> WELL, THAT'S --THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AS SOON AS SHE'S TAKEN OFF THE STREETS, THE LAWYERS FILED AN EMERGENCY MOTION IN COURT IN MASSACHUSETTS, ORDERING THAT SHE NOT BE TRANSFERRED OUTSIDE OF MASSACHUSETTS.

THE COURT SAID, I MAKE THAT ORDER, AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS TO GIVE EVERYBODY 48 HOURS NOTICE BEFORE IT INTENDS TO DO SO, BUT THEY DID IT ANYWAY.

AND THE REASON WHY THEY SEND FOLKS OVER 1,000 MILES AWAY FROM WHERE THEIR FAMILIES AND WHERE THEIR HOMES ARE, IS BECAUSE --THIS IS ESSENTIALLY A DISAPPEARANCE, THAT THEY'RE USING THE --I.C.E.

IS USING THE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION DETENTION REGIME TO BE ABLE TO MOVE PEOPLE AROUND PRECISELY SO THAT LAWYERS CANNOT STOP THEM FROM DOING THEIR ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

IT'S --THE COURTS HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY CLEAR, AND IN THIS CASE, AND I THINK ALSO IN THE CASE IN MAHMOUD CAN KALIL, THIS IS THE PLAYBOOK.

THEY MOVE THEM AROUND, THEY SAY, GOSH, WE DIDN'T KNOW WE COULDN'T DO THAT, BUT IT'S ALREADY DONE.

SO, THAT REQUIRES THE LAWYERS NOW TO BE ABLE TO FILE ADDITIONAL MOTIONS TO HAVE THE PERSON BROUGHT BACK SO THEY CAN HAVE DUE PROCESS AND GET BEFORE A JUDGE ON THE LEGALITY OF THEIR DETENTION.

>> OKAY.

SO, KALIL WAS BROUGHT TO NEW JERSEY, AFTER HIS LAWYERS INTERVENED.

DO YOU THINK THE INTERVENING CRACKDOWN AND INTIMIDATION OF ACTUAL LAWYERS BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PAUL WISE, ET CETERA, IS GOING TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF LAWYERS WHO WANT TO TAKE THIS CASE, LIKE OZTURK'S CASE?

OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT WILL BE PETITIONED AND SHE WILL BE BROUGHT BACK?

>> WELL, I THINK FOR ALL OF THESE CASES --YOU ASKED THE QUESTION, NOT SO MUCH HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN AMERICA, BUT WHY IS THIS HAPPENING IN AMERICA RIGHT NOW?

AND WITH HER CASE AND WITH MAHMOUD'S CASE, THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.

AND THE ONLY REASON --THE ONLY REASON WHY THE GOVERNMENT IS DETAINING THEM AND, FRANKLY, TRYING TO DISAPPEAR THEM AND DEPORT THEM, IS BECAUSE OF THEIR DEFENSE OF PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, AND CALLING OUT THE GENOCIDE AND KILLING THAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.

THAT IS THE ONLY REASON.

AND THEY'RE MAKING CLAIMS THAT THESE ARE SOMEHOW CONNECTED TO HAMAS, WHICH THEY'RE NOT, THAT THESE ARE CONNECTED TO ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH THEY CERTAINLY ARE NOT.

THIS IS CORE DISAGREEMENT WITH GOVERNMENT POLICY.

AND RELATING TO OTHER LAWYERS, THE ATTACK ON LAW FIRMS THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING IS ALSO CHILLING, BECAUSE WE KNOW --AND YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, FROM COVERING SO MANY REGIMES, THAT OUT OF THE AUTHORITARIAN PLAYBOOK, YOU HAVE TO FIRST KILL OFF THE LAWYERS, AS SHAKESPEARE SAID.

YOU GET THE LAWYERS OUT OF THE PICTURE.

THESE LAW FIRMS NOW ARE GOING TO BE LESS LIKELY TO WANT TO JUMP IN AND CHALLENGE THE ADMINISTRATION ON CLEARLY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY, AND OUR HOPE IS THAT THE LAW FIRMS WILL ACTUALLY STAND UP.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS IN AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES WHERE PEOPLE SAY, WELL -- SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY, WELL, IF WE JUST KEEP OUR HEADS DOWN, MAYBE IT WILL GO AWAY, BUT THAT ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAPPEN IN AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES.

THAT STRENGTHENS THE GOVERNMENT.

SO, BY NOT RESISTING, BY NOT FIGHTING BACK, INCLUDING LAW FIRMS, MAJOR LAW FIRMS, CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, STUDENTS AND OTHER PROTESTERS, IF WE DON'T CONTINUE TO RESIST AND PUSH BACK, WE ARE ALLOWING THIS COUNTRY TO TURN INTO AN AUTHORITARIAN NIGHTMARE THAT WE MAY NEVER COME OUT OF.

>> HONESTLY, IT BEGGARS BELIEF --IT'S JUST REALLY, REALLY CHILLING, AND CLEARLY, THERE'S A POINT TO THIS IN, YOU KNOW, CHILLING THE STATE OF AFFAIRS ON ACADEMIC CAMPUSES.

SO, LOOK, HOMELAND SECURITY HAS BASICALLY SAID THAT OZTURK HAS, QUOTE, ENGAGED IN ACTIVITIES IN SUPPORT OF HAMAS.

OF COURSE IT DOESN'T SPECIFY ANYTHING, THERE ARE NO CHARGES, WE'VE JUST SPOKEN ABOUT HER, HER BROTHER SAYS SHE NEVER DID ANYTHING OR CALLED FOR ANY KIND OF VIOLENCE, EXCEPT FOR COWRITING AN OP-ED CHALLENGING, I THINK, TUFTS RESPONSE TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, AND DOING THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW, ASKING FOR VESTMENT AND ALL THE REST OF IT, WHICH IS --COMES UNDER NONVIOLENT POLITICAL ACTION, ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF THAT.

I KNOW IT'S UNPOPULAR, I KNOW ISRAEL AND OTHER JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS BELIEVE THAT IS ANTI-ANTI-SEMITIC, BUT THEY SAY IT'S NOT.

IN ANY EVEN, THEY ALSO SAY, DHS, THEY'RE USING THE SAME STATE DEPARTMENT, YOU KNOW, LAW OR RULE, VERY ARCANE, THAT THEY'RE USING IN MAHMOUD KALIL'S CASE.

>> YEAH, THEY ARE.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO, JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT LAW.

THIS IS A LAW THAT COMES FROM THE IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION ACT, DATES BACK TO 1952, AND IT GIVES THE SECRETARY OF STATE THE POWER TO DEPORT PEOPLE THAT HAVE --THEY HAVE A REASONABLE BELIEVE OF THEIR PRESENCE OR THEIR ACTIONS WILL BE DAMAGING TO U.S. FOREIGN POLICY.

NOW, THIS LAW WAS PASSED PARTICULARLY IN RESPONSE TO LOOKING AT SOVIET SPIES IN THE UNITED STATES IN 1952.

IT CANNOT AND IT SHOULD NOT BE APPLIED TO STUDENTS OR, FRANKLY, ANYBODY, FOR EXPRESSING AN OPINION THAT DISAGREES WITH U.S. FOREIGN POLICY.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, STUDENTS AND THERE ARE STUDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY, THAT ARE REALLY TROUBLED, AND SHOULD BE TROUBLED, BY THE BOMBING OF CHURCHES AND SCHOOLS IN GAZA.

PERIOD, FULL STOP.

WE CAN'T HAVE A SITUATION WHERE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES OR U.S. CITIZENS CAN MAKE THAT CRITICISM, BUT PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE FOR VALID REASONS OR PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE FOR, YOU KNOW, ALLOWED TO STAY HERE FOREVER CAN'T DO THAT.

THEY'RE WEAPONIZING THE VULNERABILITY OF IMMIGRATION STATUS IN ORDER TO STOP PEOPLE FROM SPEAKING ABOUT THE VIOLENCE AND THE WAR IN GAZA, AND AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, WHAT DOES THAT REALLY LOOK LIKE, IF WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE CRIMINALIZED AND DEPORTED AND DETAINED FOR SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE WAR, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO VOICE OUR DISSENT AGAINST WHAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS DOING, AND WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS -- IS ALLOWING THEM TO DO?

THIS FALLS AT THE HEART -- >> YEAH, YEAH, I GET IT.

I WANT TO JUST BROADEN OUT QUICKLY, BECAUSE IT'S --THERE'S THIS, AND THEN THERE'S THE WHOLE MASS DEPORTATION PIECE OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

YOU KNOW, THE --THE HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF KRISTI NOEM TOURED THIS --BASICALLY THIS PRISON FACILITY, RIGHT, IN SALVADOR YESTERDAY.

WE HAVE PICTURES OF HER STANDING IN FRONT OF A CAGE, ESSENTIALLY, FULL OF SHIRT LESS MEN.

THERE WAS A REPORT TODAY THAT MEN WERE FOCUSED ON BECAUSE OF THEIR TATTOOS.

ONE OF THEM WAS SCREAMING THAT HE WAS JUST A HAIRDRESSER, AND THE OTHER ONE SAID, YOU KNOW, NOBODY --THIS PERSON HAS ZERO CONNECTION TO GANGS, AND ONE OF THE TATTOOS, WHICH WAS SHOWING, IS FOR AUTISM AWARENESS, TO HONOR HIS BROTHER.

HE'S ONE OF THE DETAINED IN EL SALVADOR.

SO, THE QUESTION GOES, OBVIOUSLY, TO THE COMPETENCE OF THIS, TO THE DUE DILIGENCE ON WHO THEY'RE ACTUALLY ROUNDING UP AND DEPORTING.

IS THERE ANY RECOURSE?

>> YEAH, THERE'S TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF RESOURCE, BECAUSE ALL OF THIS ACTIVITY IS ILLEGAL.

THAT PEOPLE ARE MARCHING INTO COURTS RIGHT NOW FOR THESE MEN, FOR THE STUDENTS THAT ARE BEING ARRESTED, AND THEY'RE SAYING THAT THIS TYPE OF MASS DEPORTATION IS ILLEGAL.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SENATE FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS DID THE STOP AND FRISK CASE IN NEW YORK CITY FOR 13 YEARS.

WE WON A TREMENDOUS RULING THAT THE CONSTITUTION JUST DOESN'T ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO ROUND UP PEOPLE BASED ON RACE, BASED ON ETHNICITY, BASED ON THESE THINGS, AND JUST MASSIVELY CRIMINALIZE THEM.

WE LEARNED THIS LESSON ALSO AFTER 9/11, TRAGICALLY, AND SADLY, WHERE MUSLIM AND ARAB COMMUNITIES WERE JUST ROUNDED UP AND DEPORTED, AND COMMUNITIES WERE CRIMINALIZED.

AND THE LESSON WE SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IS THAT YOU CAN'T MASSIVELY CRIMINALIZE, DETAIN, DEPORT PEOPLE BASED UPON OUTWARD APPEARANCES.

THERE'S NOT ONLY THE AUTISM AWARENESS TATTOO, WE'VE HEARD ABOUT A SOCCER COACH WHO HAD A SOCCER TATTOO ON HIS NECK AND THAT WAS MISTAKEN, OR USED AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR SAYING THAT HE WAS IN A GANG.

ANOTHER REPORT WHERE SOMEONE WHO IS A MUSICIAN AND A CONSTRUCTION WORKER HAD A BIRD TATTOO ON HIS NECK AND THAT'S BEING TAKEN AS A SIGN OF GANG ACTIVITY.

THIS ADMINISTRATION IS BASICALLY TRYING TO ROUND UP ANYBODY THAT CAN THINK OF FOR ANY REASON THAT COMES TO MIND, SEPARATE AND APART FROM WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES AND TRYING TO DEPORT THEM.

SIMPLY NOT ALLOWED.

>> ALL RIGHT, I MEAN, JUST VERY, VERY BRIEFLY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU EXPECT 200 VENEZUELANS TO COME BACK, DESPITE THE COURT PETITIONS.

DO YOU EXPECT KALIL AND OZTURK, THE TWO STUDENTS, TO BE DEPORTED?

VERY BRIEFLY?

>> I DO NOT.

WE HAVE A HEARING IN MAHMOUD'S CASE TOMORROW AND THERE WILL BE HEARINGS ON --ON THE OTHER CASES.

WE EXPECT THAT THE COURTS REVIEWING THE -- THE JUSTIFICATION IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US ON THIS REALLY IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VINCE WARREN.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN IS JUST ONE OF MANY WAYS IN WHICH DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO REMAKE THE UNITED STATES.

HE'S ALSO COMPLETELY GUTTING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, CUTTING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF JOBS.

AND AMERICA'S VIEW OF GOVERNMENT IS COMPLICATED.

PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY ONCE SAID, LET PUBLIC SERVICE BE A PROUD AND LIVELY CAREER.

WHILE RONALD REAGAN SOME 20 YEARS LATER PROCLAIMED, GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO OUR PROBLEM, GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM.

THE FACT IS, MANY AMERICANS JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT 3 MILLION PEOPLE WORKING FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY DO.

ENTER MICHAEL LEWIS, THE JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR KNOWN FOR BEST SELLERS LIKE "MONEY BALL" AND "THE BIG SHORT."

HIS LATEST WORK IS "WHO IS GOVERNMENT?"

IT LOOKS AT THE UNSUNG WORK OF CIVIL SERVANTS.

AND COMEDIAN W. KAMAU BELL IS A CONTRIBUTOR.

THEY ARE BOTH JOINING ME NOW, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, I MEAN, WHAT -- I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU, MICHAEL, BECAUSE THIS WAS AN IDEA OF YOURS FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST" EDITOR, AS WELL.

MA MADE YOU THINK OF THIS?

BECAUSE YOU DID IT BEFORE THIS ADMINISTRATION WAS INAUGURATED AND STARTED THIS CURRENT WAVE OF PURGES.

>> SO, WHAT INTERESTED ME, IN THE FIRST PLACE, WAS TRUMP'S SORT OF NEGLECT OF THE GOVERNMENT HIS FIRST TIME AROUND.

WHICH PROVOKED ME TO GO INENED A WRITE A BOOK ABOUT JUST KIND OF WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DID.

AND IN THE COURSE OF DOING THAT, I WAS JUST SHOCKED BY THE QUALITY OF THE CHARACTER INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT --JUST THESE, LIKE, MISSION- DRIVEN EXPERTS WHO GOT NOTHING BUT GRIEF FROM THE SOCIETY THEY WERE SERVING.

AND WHOSE --AND WHOSE MISSION WAS SORT OF, LIKE, UNKNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

AND THERE WAS THIS --SO, I HAD A SENSE THAT, LIKE, OKAY, THERE'S --THERE'S A STEREOTYPE OF THE CIVIL SERVANT THAT'S SORT OF INFECTED THE AMERICAN MIND, AND IT'S THE THING THAT ELON MUSK IS PEDDLING.

THEY'RE WASTEFUL, ABUSIVE, OR THEY'RE THE DEEP STATE, BUREAUCRATS.

AND THE ACTUAL PERSON WAS SO DIFFERENT AND ACTUALLY SUCH GOOD MATERIAL THAT I THOUGHT, LET'S, LIKE, DO THIS BIG.

LET'S --LET ME HIRE SIX WRITERS WHO I LOVE AND I'LL --AND ALONG WITH ME, WE'LL PARACHUTE INTO THE PLACE AND FIND STORIES AND JUST TELL THEM, AS A WAY TO KIND OF COUNTERACT THE STEREOTYPE.

AND THE GOAL WAS TO EXPLODE THE STEREOTYPE, BECAUSE IT'S DUMB AND INCREASINGLY IT'S DEADLY.

>> SO, CUE W. KAMAU BELL, YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE WRITERS.

YOU'VE DONE A LOT, CERTAINLY FOR CNN, YOU'VE MET A LOT OF PEOPLE, PRESUMABLY ALSO GOVERNMENT WORKERS.

WHAT DID YOU FIND THAT MAYBE, YOU KNOW, CHANGED THE STEREOTYPE, WHEN YOU EXPLORED THE CIVIL SERVANTS?

>> I MEAN, FOR ME, WHEN MICHAEL APPROACHED ME, SAID, DO YOU WANT TO WRITE ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I SAID, YES, BECAUSE IT WAS EXCITING TO DLAB RATE WITH MICHAEL, AND I HAD THIS THOUGHT, WAIT, DOESN'T MY GODDAUGHTER WORK IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

SO, OVER A KWANZAA CELEBRATION, I ASKED HER ABOUT HER JOB, SHE WORKS IN THE ANTI-TRUST DEPARTMENT OF THE JUSTICE, AND SHE EXPLODED WITH SO MUCH EXCITEMENT OVER SOMETHING THAT I NEVER THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE SO MUCH EXCITEMENT.

I THOUGHT, THIS IS GREAT, AND I GET TO JUST HANG OUT WITH MY GODDAUGHTER.

>> AND JUST QUICKLY, BECAUSE THE DOJ IS SHIFTING ALL SORTS OF, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO SAY RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO PURGE QUITE A LOT OF THE INDEPENDENT PROSECUTORS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, IS SHE STILL COMMITTED?

IS HER LIFE, RATHER, HER JOB, SECURE?

BECAUSE THERE ARE ALSO PURGES THERE.

>> WELL, SHE IS A PARALEGAL.

HER JOB WAS ONLY GOING TO BE FOR A FEW YEARS, BECAUSE IT'S A THING THAT LAW SCHOOL STUDENTS DO.

SHE KNEW SHE WAS GOING TO LEAVE.

BUT THE INTERESTING THING, WHEN I TALKED TO HER IN THE SUMMER ABOUT THIS BEFORE TRUMP WAS IN OFFICE, SHE SAID, I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD COME BACK, BECAUSE I MAY END UP WITH SO MUCH LAW SCHOOL DEBT, I CAN'T AFFORD TO BE A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE.

BUT OVER THE COURSE OF EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED WITH TRUMP, SHE IS MORE COMMITTED TO COMING BACK, BECAUSE SHE REALLY FEELS LIKE THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO ARE COMMITTED, AND WHO KNOW THAT WE NEED COMMITTED EMPLOYEES HERE WHO ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.

>> THAT'S THE AMAZING.

THAT'S WHAT KENNEDY APPEALED TO IN HIS INAUGURATION SPEECH.

AND IT'S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HAPPENED UNDER REAGAN, WHO --WHAT DID HE SAY, SOMETHING ABOUT THE NINE WORST WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, I'M THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M COMING TO HELP YOU, I'M PARAPHRASING.

BUT WHY DO YOU THINK, MICHAEL, IT WAS SO EASY TO DEMONIZE FEDERAL WORKERS?

AND THAT'S LASTED UNTIL --UNTIL NOW.

>> NO, AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY BEEN AMPED UP NOW, AND IT IS REALLY AN INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR 50 YEARS.

AND THEY'VE WOUND UP IN THE SAME BUCKET AS IMMIGRANTS AND TRANS-PEOPLE, IN THE TRUMP MIND.

IT'S LIKE PEOPLE YOU CAN SAY ALMOST ANYTHING ABOUT AND NO ONE WILL STAND UP AND DEFEND THEM.

AND I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS GOING ON.

ONE IS, THE NATURE OF THE INSTITUTION.

IT'S RUN --ALTHOUGH THERE ARE 2.

3 MILLION CIVIL SERVANTS WHO AREN'T IN THE MILITARY, THERE'S A TOP LAYER OF POLITICAL APPOINTEES WHO RUN THE PLACE, AND THE COMMUNICATIONS OPERATION IS RUN BY THE POLITICAL PEOPLE.

SO, CIVIL SERVANTS DON'T REALLY HAVE MUCH ABILITY TO TELL THEIR STORY OR DEFEND THEMSELVES.

AND THERE IS ALSO THIS REFLECTIVE --THIS REFLEXIVE FEAR, BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY, EVERY TIME THEY'RE NOTICED, IT'S BAD, YOU KNOW?

THEY --THERE'S BEEN NO CULTURE OF --OF SORT OF RECOGNITION, EXCEPT WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG, SOMEONE GETS HAULED OUT AND HAS THEIR HEAD WHACKED OFF.

SO, THEY THEMSELVES HAVE KIND OF LEARNED THE BEST THING TO DO IS LAY LOW.

AND SO, WHEN YOU'RE NOT TELLING YOUR STORY, AND THAT'S --THAT'S THE PROBLEM, RIGHT?

THE STORIES JUST DON'T GET TOLD, AND THAT'S THE REASON FOR THE BOOK.

BUT WHEN YOU'RE NOT TELLING YOUR STORY, THEN SOME OTHER STORY RUSHES INTO THE VACUUM.

AND THIS SIMPLE STORY, WHICH IS VERY USEFUL FOR - -FOR AT LEAST -- FOR ACTUALLY ALL POLITICIANS, WHEN THINGS GO BAD, YOU BLAME A CIVIL SERVANT.

WHEN THINGS GO WELL, YOU TAKE CREDIT.

THAT'S JUST KIND OF RULED THE AMERICAN MIND FOR THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES.

>> KAMAU BELL, I WAS FASCINATED TO READ AMONGST MANY OF THE LITTLE VIGNETTES THAT IT WAS A, YOU KNOW, A --A PERSON IN THE IRS WHO CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF, WOW, LET'S HAVE E-FILING OF OUR TAX STATEMENTS, AND, WOW, HASN'T THAT BECOME NOW, JUST A MATTER OF COURSE, AND IT WAS JUST ONE PERSON'S IDEA.

BUT ALSO IN THE BOOK, AN IRS COMMISSIONER IS QUOTED, HE'S SPEAKING TO IRS WORKERS, AND HE SAYS, THE QUALITY OF LIFE WE HAVE, IT'S ALL GOVERNMENT.

GOVERNMENT TOUCHES YOU 100 TIMES BEFORE BREAKFAST AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT WE HAVE IN OUR LIFE IN SOCIETY THAT COME FROM GOVERNMENT DOING ITS JOB.

ONE OF THE STORIES THAT I CAME ACROSS WAS THE BREAKUP OF THE MONOPOLY OF AT&T.

IT USED TO BE THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS OF THIS COUNTRY WERE CONTROLLED BY ONE COMPANY, AND THERE WAS NO INNOVATION.

YOU DIDN'T EVEN OWN YOUR PHONE.

YOU HAD TO RENT YOUR PHONE FROM THE PHONE COMPANY, AND YOU DID NOT GET ANY SORT OF GREAT CHOICE OF YOUR PHONES, AND THE BREAKUP OF AT&T BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BY THE ANTI-TRUST DIVISION, LED TO INNOVATION IN PHONES, WHICH LED TO ALL OF US BEING ON OUR PHONES TOO MUCH.

WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT WHETHER THAT'S GOOD ORRED BAD, BUT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT COMES FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

>> AND MICHAEL, YOU PROFILED A COAL MINER, SO -- I THINK HIS NAME WAS CHRISTOPHER MARK.

TELL ME WHY HE GRABBED YOUR ATTENTION.

>> HE --SO, IT WAS A COAL MINE WHOLE HAD LEFT A COAL MINE AND SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF COAL MINE ROOFS FALLING ON THE HEADS OF COAL MINES.

WHO KNEW IT WAS A PROBLEM, UNLESS YOU WERE A COAL MINER?

BUT IT TURNS OUT IT KILLED 50,000 AMERICAN COAL MINERS OVER THE PREVIOUS CENTURY.

AND HE WAS, I MEAN, HE WAS A REMARKABLE CHARACTER IN AND OF HIMSELF, AND HIS MOTIVES WERE REALLY, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD LITERARY DEDIMENSIONS TO THEM, BUT THE FACT THAT HE HAD KIND OF DONE IT, MORE OR LESS BY HIMSELF, I MEAN, INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND HIM, AND THAT THE ONLY MECHANISM FOR HIM TO DO IT WAS INSIDE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THE COAL MINING INDUSTRY DIDN'T HAVE A PARTICULAR INTEREST IN THE --IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM.

I MEAN, IT JUST SPOKE VOLUMES.

AND IT'S A BROADER THING.

THE BROADER THING IS, LIKE, ALL THE PROBLEMS --ALL THE HARD PROBLEMS, ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT THE MARKET DOESN'T WANT TO SOLVE, FINDS --FIND THEIR WAY TO GOVERNMENT.

ALONG WITH A LOT OF OTHER INTERESTING PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SOLVE THOSEPROBLEMS, AND WE'VE COME TO SORT OF JUST TAKE IT FOR GRANTED AND WE'RE NOW IN THE SITUATION WHERE WE'VE TAKEN IT FOR GRANTED FOR SO LONG THAT A PRESIDENT CAN COME ALONG AND TRY TO DESTROY IT, AND -- WITH MINIMUM KIND OF BLOW-BACK, WITH PEOPLE KIND OF, LIKE, NOT QUITE SURE OF WHAT IT IS HE'S DESTROYED.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS --THIS GENTLEMAN, THIS MINER, BECAUSE WHEN YOU MET HIM, HE WAS THIS THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, HENCE A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE.

BUT TO YOUR POINT ABOUT BILLIONAIRES AND PRIVATE SECTOR VERSUS GOVERNMENT, DAVE EGERS BASICALLY SAYS, HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY, AND HE WRITES, THE WORK DONE THERE IS THE MOST INSPIRING RESEARCH DONE BY ANY HUMANS AN THE PLANET.

NO BILLIONAIRES WILL FUND WORK LIKE THIS, BECAUSE THERE'S NO MONEY IN IT.

THAT CAN BE SAID OF MANY OF THE GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS.

I SEE YOU NODDING, KAMAU.

TELL ME WHAT --REACT TO THAT.

>> YEAH, THE --WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, BILLIONAIRES HAVE SAID THAT PROFIT OVER EVERYTHING IS THE WAY TO GO, BECAUSE THAT WORKS FOR THEM.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT MANY OF THE GREATEST THINGS THAT HAVE EVER HAPPENED TO THIS COUNTRY WERE THROUGH PEOPLE WHO JUST WANTED TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS IS, THOSE PEOPLE HAVE SMALL EGOS, AND ALL OF OUR BILLIONAIRES AND POLITICIANS HAVE BIG EGOS.

WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT THE INNOVATION THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES, BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE GIANT EGOS.

WHEN IN REALITY, THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING TO GET TO A BETTER COUNTRY IS BY PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING FOR A BETTER DAY.

AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES HAVE TO PROVE THEIR WORTH.

THEY HAVE TO PROVE THEY ARE MAKING AMERICA BETTER.

THEY DON'T JUST GET TO SAY IT AND PUT IT ON A BUMPER STICKER.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE --GO AHEAD, MICHAEL.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO ADD TO THAT, THE HYPOCRISY OF WHAT IS GOING ON NOW IS BREATHTAKING.

TESLA GETS ITS START, THANKS TO A LOAN AND LOAN GUARANTEES FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, THAT WITHOUT IT, ELON MUSK, BACK IN THE DAY, ACKNOWLEDGED, LIKE, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF THE GROUND.

LIKE, IT'S JUST BREATHTAKING THAT THIS POSE NOW BY PEOPLE WHO HAPPEN TO BE SITTING ON TOP, THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY WOULD JUST NATURALLY HAVE GOTTEN THERE, AND THAT, IN FACT --WHEN, IN FACT, THE TRUTH IS, THE SOURCE OF A LOT OF INNOVATION AND THE FOUNDATION OF THE ECONOMY IS SOME PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR, FOR WHICH THE PIE VAT SECTOR THEN TAKES CREDIT, AND THE GOVERNMENT JUST KIND OF FADES AWAY AS PART OF THE STORY.

>> YEAH.

SO, I'M GOING -- IT IS EXTRAORDINARY, AND IT'S REALLY GOOD TO BE REMINDED OF THIS.

AND PARTICULARLY IN THE LIGHT OF --OF THAT CALL, THAT RALLYING CALL FROM KENNEDY AND ESPECIALLY TO YOUNG PEOPLE, WHO DO ACTUAL I WILL PERHAPS STILL HAVE SOME, YOU KNOW, DREAMS OF MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

SO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE OF RUSSELL VOTE, BUT AS YOU ALL KNOW, HE'S TRUMP'S OMB, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET DIRECTOR, AND HE TAPED A SPEECH, OR, HE HAD A SPEECH THAT WAS TAPED AND RELEASED BY PRO PUBLICA, I'M GOING TO PLAY IT AND GET YOU TO REACT TO IT.

>> WE WANT THE BUREAUCRATS TO BE TRAUMATICALLY EFFECTED.

WHEN THEY WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, WE WANT THEM TO NOT WANT TO GO TO WORK, BECAUSE THEY ARE -- THEY ARE INCREASINGLY VIEWED AS THE VILLAINS.

WE WANT THEIR FUNDING TO BE SHUT DOWN SO THAT THE EPA CAN'T DO ALL OF THE RULES AGAINST OUR ENERGY INDUSTRY, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO BAND WIDTH FINANCIALLY TO DO SO.

WE WANT TO PUT THEM IN TRAUMA.

>> OH, MY GOODNESS.

IT'S HARD TO LISTEN TO, ACTUALLY, AND IT'S HARD TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE LAUGHING IN THE AUDIENCE.

I SEE YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD, KAMAU.

>> YEAH, I THINK ABOUT THE DMV.

WE ALL THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WORK AT THE DMV AS NOT BEING NICE PEOPLE.

WE DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE NICE PEOPLE, SO THEY DON'T ACT LIKE NICE PEOPLE.

THE FACT THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET WHAT WE GET IF WE DON'T TREAT THESE PEOPLE LIKE PEOPLE.

SO, HE IS NOT AFRAID OF HIS LIFE GETTING WORSE, BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SHUTS DOWN, BECAUSE HE'S PROBABLY GOT A LOT OF MONEY AND HE'S GOT CESS TO PEOPLE WITH A LOT OF MONEY.

BUT THE GOVERNMENT WORKERS ARE AFRAID TO SHOW UP, OUR LIVES ARE GOING TO GET MEASURABLY WORSE AND WE CAN SEE IT AT THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, THAT IF OLD PEOPLE CAN'T GET THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FIRED, WE DON'T ALL HAVE A BILLIONAIRE RELATIVE LIKE HOWARD LUT KIN TO SUPPORT US, IF WE CAN'T GET OUR SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS.

HE IS PREACHING TO A SMALL GROUP OF RICH PEOPLE THAT AREN'T AFRAID OF WHAT HAPPENS IF THE GOVERNMENT SHUTS DOWN.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS OBVIOUSLY STARTED TO RAISE ITS UGLY HEAD DURING THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT, IN OTHER WORDS, THIS REAL ANIMUS TOWARDS GOVERNMENT PEOPLE.

PEOPLE WOULD BE ASKED, DO YOU LIKE MEDICAID, SOCIAL SECURITY --OH, YEAH, YEAH, WE WANT ALL OF THAT.

SO, MY QUESTION TO YOU, MICHAEL, DO YOU THINK THERE IS A STRATEGY BEYOND HEARING DOWN?

DAVID NGER OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES" TALKED ABOUT TRUMP'S MOTIVATION.

IN HIS FIRST TWO MONTHS, THE NEW ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN EFFICIENT IN TEARING THINGS DOWN, BUT PAINFULLY SLOW TO EXPLAIN HOW THEIR ACTIONS FIT INTO THEIR BROADER STRATEGY.

WHAT DO YOU SEE, MICHAEL?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S --I THINK IT'S COMPLICATED, BECAUSE I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS GOING ON AT ONCE, BUT ONE SIMPLE EXPLANATION, FOR WHAT THEY'VE DONE, IS, THEY HAVE --THEY'VE DISRUPTED ANYTHING AND THEY'VE GONE AFTER ANYTHING THAT WOULD PREVENT DONALD TRUMP FROM TURNING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INTO HIS PERSONAL POLITICAL WEAPON.

AND JUST AN INSTRUMENT OF HIS OWN POLITICAL DESIRES.

AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT ELON MUSK IS SAYING, VERSUS WHAT HE'S DOING, THERE'S NO --THERE'S NO CONNECTION.

HE SAYS HE WANTS TO ELIMINATE WASTE, FRAUD, AND CORRUPTION, THE FIRST THING THEY DID WAS FIRE ALL THE INSPECTORS GENERAL AT ALL THE DIFFERENT AGENCIES.

AND THOSE PEOPLE'S JOB, AND THEY WERE INDEPENDENT, THOSE PEOPLE'S JOB WAS TO ROOT OUT FRAUD AND WASTE.

AND THEY COULD REPORT IT TO CONGRESS.

IT'S EXACTLY WHO YOU'D WANT ON THE BEAT.

IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN WASTE AND CORRUPTION.

BUT THEY'RE NOT.

THEY'RE INTERESTED IN SOMETHING ELSE.

AND IT DOES SEEM TO BE LIKE REDUCING THIS THING TO --TO AN INSTRUMENT THAT IS LOYAL TO DONALD TRUMP AND NOT TO THE CONSTITUTION.

OF COURSE, THE CIVIL SERVANTS, THEY TAKE AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.

NOT TO DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK THAT'S --THAT'S SORT OF AT THE BOTTOM OF A LOT OF THE HOSTILITY.

AND I THINK THE OTHER THING IS, I -- THE CLIP YOU JUST PLAYED, IT'S ASTONISHING THAT ANYBODY THINKS IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO MANAGE A LARGE INSTITUTION THIS WAY.

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY SUCCESSFUL LARGE INSTITUTION WHERE THE LEADERS, THE PEOPLE ON TOP, COME IN AND TREAT THE EMPLOYEES WITH SCORN AND DERISION?

THAT'S NOT A STRATEGY THAT'S EVER WORKED.

SO, THEY ARE AFTER SOMETHING OTHER THAN MAKING IT WORK WELL.

>> WELL, IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY BOOK, AND IT'S REALLY TIMELY, AND IT'S SO UPLIFTING, ACTUALLY.

SO, "WHO IS GOVERNMENT?"

THANK YOU SO MUCH, YOU BOTH, FOR TELLING US SOME OF THESE STORIES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WITH THE RESUMED WAR ON GAZA INTENSIFYING EVERY DAY, ISRAELIS CONTINUE TO PROTEST THIS, AS WELL AS THEIR GOVERNMENT'S ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THE JUDICIARY.

AND IN GAZA, RARE PROTESTS AGAINST HAMAS.

PEOPLE THERE FACE A BRUTAL CRACKDOWN FOR DOING SO.

MEANWHILE, IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, PALESTINIANS ARE UNDER CONSTANT ASSAULT, AS WE REPORTED THIS WEEK, HAMDAN BALLAL, THE OSCAR-WINNING DIRECTOR OF "NO OTHER LAND," WAS ATTACKED AND BEATEN BY ISRAELI SETTLERS AND AUTHORITIES.

JEREMY DIAMOND HAS NOW BEEN SPEAKING TO HIM.

HERE'S THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO IN HAMDAN BALLAL WAS BEING CELEBRATED FOR WINNING THE OSCAR FOR BEST DOCUMENTARY.

TODAY, HE IS BACK HOME IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, A BRUISE UNDERLYING HIS LEFT EYE.

>> LOOK, THIS IS -- >> HE AND OTHER WITNESSES SAY HE WAS ATTACKED BY THE VERY SAME ISRAELI SETTLERS WHOSE ATTACKS WERE THE SUBJECT OF HIS OSCAR-WINNING DOCUMENTARY.

THIS VIDEO, CAPTURED BY AN AMERICAN PEACE ACTIVIST, DOCUMENTS A PART OF MONDAY'S ATTACK.

ASSETLERS PELTED THEIR CAR WITH ROCKS.

ALONGSIDE ONE OF THOSE DAMAGED VEHICLES, BALLAL SAYS HE ARRIVED HERE THAT EVENING AFTER HE WAS ALERTED TO THE PRESENCE OF SETTLERS.

>> THE SETTLERS STARTED TO KIND OF THROW STONES TO THE HOUSE.

AND DESTROYED THE WATER TANK.

>> AS SOME PALESTINIANS BEGAN THROWING STONES BACK AT THE SETTLERS AND MORE SETTLERS AND SOLDIERS ALIVED, BALLAL THOUGHT OF HIS FAMILY DOWN THE HILL.

>> IF THE SETTLERS COME DOWN THERE AND THEY START TO ATTACKING THEM, OKAY, WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THEM?

SO, DIRECTLY, AND QUICKLY, I BACK TO MY HOUSE.

AND I STAND THERE.

I TOLD MY WIFE, IF YOU SEE ME DIE, DON'T OPEN THE DOOR.

I CLOSE IT LIKE HERE, AND STOP HERE, EXACTLY.

AND THEY CAME FROM --FROM THIS SIDE.

>> HE SAYS AN ISRAELI SOLDIER THEN APPROACHED HIM, HIS RIFLE DRAWN, AS ONE OF THE SETTLERS BEGAN BEATING HIM FROM BEHIND.

HITTING HIM IN HIS HEAD.

>> WHEN I SAW I'M BLEEDING, I FELT I --THIS IS THE LAST MOMENTS IN MY LIFE.

>> IN THAT MOMENT, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO DIE?

>> YES.

BECAUSE THAT --THAT ATTACK WAS SO, SO HARD.

AND, YOU KNOW, MY HEAD, LIKE, WAS A FOOTBALL.

BETWEEN THEY'RE LEGS AND THE WALL HERE.

I WAS SHOUTING, SCREAMING, CRYING, BUT THEY DON'T CARE.

>> BALLAL SAYS THE SOLDIER PRESSED HIS RIFLE INTO HIS LEG AND THREATENED TO SHOOT.

HE WAS THEN ARRESTED.

IN CUSTODY, HE SAYS HE WAS BLINDFOLDED AND FORCED TO SIT ON THE GROUND.

HIT BY SOLDIERS EVERY TIME HE TRIED TO MOVE.

A CLAIM THE ISRAELI MILITARY DENIES.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID THEY ARRIVED HERE ON THE SCENE OF WHAT THEY DESCRIBED AS A, QUOTE, VIOLENT CONFRONTATION BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

ACCORDING TO THE IDF, SPARKED BY PALESTINIANS THROWING ROCKS AT ISRAELIS.

SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE HERE DENIES.

WHILE THEIR OSCAR WIN IS SHINING A LIGHT ON SETTLER VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK, BALLAL AND HIS CODIRECTOR KNEW THEY WOULD COME BACK TO THE SAME REALITY.

OR WORSE.

>> WE KNOW THAT THE SETTLERS WOULD BE WITH THE OCCUPATION ARMY AND POLICE WOULD BE MORE ANGRY AND DO A.

AND PUNISHMENT, MAINLY TO SILENCE US AND TRY TO PREVENT US FROM TRANSFERRING THE MESSAGE, THE TRUTH AND THE REALITY OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> BALLAL BELIEVES HE WAS TARGETED BECAUSE OF HIS OSCAR WIN.

BUT HE SAYS HE WON'T BE DETERRED.

YOU ARE DETERMINED TO STAY, THIS ATTACK WON'T CHANGE THAT?

>> YOU SEE, MY BLOOD IS HERE.

ON THE GROUND.

THIS IS MY HOUSE.

AND HERE, MY BLOOD, OKAY?

SO, I WILL STAY HERE.

THAT CONNECTION, IT'S BECOME MORE AND MORE.

NOW, THE CONNECTION BETWEEN ME HAND THE LAND, THIS IS BLOOD.

SO --I WILL NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, OKAY, LEAVE MY HOME.

>>> NOW, IN PARIS TODAY, MORE SIGNS OF TENSION BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND KYIV, AS UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS AMERICA KEEPS CHANGING THE TERMS OF THE EXTENT OF A POTENTIAL MINERALS DEAL IT WANTS.

ITS SYMPTOMATIC OF A WIDER TRENLD, AS ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES ALIKE FACE A MERCURIAL ADMINISTRATION.

BEIJING HAS ACCUSED THE U. S. OF VIOLATING WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION RULES AFTER TRUMP ANNOUNCED 25% TARIFFS ON CARS AND AUTO PARTS IMPORTED FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

IN BEIJING, THE FOREIGN MINISTER SPOKESMAN SAID THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN A TRADE WAR OR A TARIFF WAR, AND HE CALLED THIS ACTION UNHELPFUL.

JESSICA CHEN WHITE HOUSE EISS IS PROFESSOR AT JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY, AND SHE SPOKE WITH ARI ON HOW CHINA IS TRYING TO MANAGE THE UNPREDICTABLE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

JESSICA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

JUST RECENTLY, WE HAD THE CHINESE DEVELOPMENT FORUM, WHERE CHINA GETS TO INVITE FOREIGN COMPANIES FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND SAY, WE'RE OPEN FOR BUSINESS.

AND I WONDER, IN LIGHT OF WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN THE PAST MONTH OR TWO, IS IT OPEN FOR BUSINESS AS USUAL, OR -- WHAT ARE THE KIND OF CHANGES THAT THE CHINESE ARE TRYING TO LURE THE WORLD WITH?

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

THE CHINESE ARE NERVOUS, AS WELL, ABOUT ALL THAT'S UNDER WAY, WITH THE, YOU KNOW, ON AND OFF AGAIN TARIFFS AND THE CHANGES IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, AND THEY HAVE A LOT OF ECONOMIC CHALLENGES AT HOME, AND SO, THE CHINA DEVELOPMENT FORUM IS THEIR ANNUAL EFFORT TO SIGNAL AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THAT CHINA IS, AS YOU SAID, OPEN FOR BUSINESS.

BUT THEY HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO IN TERMS OF REASSURING FOREIGN INVESTORS THAT CHINA PLANS TO KIND OF LIVE UP TO ITS PROMISES TO BE THE DEFENDER OF GLOBALIZATION AND NOT TO FOLLOW THE PATH OF KIND OF UNILATERALISM THAT THEY'VE CRITICIZED SO MUCH IN U.S. POLICY RECENTLY.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY CHINA SEES SOME BENEFIT FROM THE U.S. MAKING IT ALL SEEM LIKE AN UNRELIABLE PARTNER, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, BUT THEY'RE QUITE NERVOUS, AS WELL.

CHINA'S BENEFITED A LOT FROM GLOBALIZATION, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT TARIFFS GO UP AROUND THE WORLD, THIS COULD COME, YOU KNOW, SIGNIFICANT COST TO CHINESE GROWTH, WHICH, YOU KNOW, REMAINS VERY HEAVILY DEPARTMENT ON ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE CHALLENGES AT HOME.

>> SO MUCH OF THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR CHINA?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK CHINA HAS BEEN TRYING TO BUILD AL PARTNERSHIPS AS A WAY TO PROVIDE SOME INSULATION FROM WHAT IT SAW AS KIND OF U.S. -LED CONTAINMENT AND SANCTIONS.

TO THE EXTENT THAT THE U.S. IS NO LONGER AN ECONOMIC PARTNER, CHINA STANDS TO BENEFIT.

BUT THE SAME TIME, A LOSS FOR THE UNITED STATES ISN'T NECESSARILY A WIN FOR CHINA.

I DON'T THINK CHINA IS GOING TO FILL THE VOID THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS LEFT IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN GLOBAL HEALTH.

>> SO, IN GLOBAL HEALTH, IF WE STOP VACCINE DISTRIBUTIONS, CHINA DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO STAND UP THE EQUIVALENT OF USAID, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

CHINA'S NOT CAPABLE AND NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN MAKING THOSE KINDS OF INVESTMENTS.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOSS FOR THE WORLD.

THAT --AND AMERICANS, TOO, BECAUSE I THINK THE EARLY DETECTION AND CONTAINMENT OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, YOU KNOW, LIKE EBOLA, YOU KNOW, HAS BENEFITED MANY AMERICANS, AND I THINK THE GREATER RISK HERE IS NOT THAT CHINA STEPS UP AND FILLS THE VOID, INSTEAD, THE DISINTEGRATION OF MANY OF THE INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS THAT HAD ONCE, I THINK, KEPT MANY OF THESE DISEASES AT BAY.

>> IS THERE SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT TRUMP 1.0 VERSUS 2.0 IN TERMS OF NOT JUST THE POSITION SURING, BUT THE POLICIES THEY'RE LAYING OUT?

BECAUSE WE SAW TARIFFS AGAINST CHINA IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

IS THERE SOMETHING DIFFERENT NOW, IS IT THE --JUST LEVEL OF UNCERTAINTY?

>> I THINK THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE ALREADY OUT OF THE GATE BETWEEN THE TWO TRUMP ADMINISTRATIONS.

I THINK THAT EVERYBODY EXPECTED THAT THESE TARIFFS WOULD BE USED AS LEVERAGE AGAINST --AGAINST CHINA, POTENTIALLY, TO EXTRACT BETTER TERMS, MAYBE GET THEM TO LIVE UP TO THEIR END OF THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, TRADE DEAL.

BUT INSTEAD, WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE PRIORITY, ACTUALLY, ON U. S. ALLIES AND PARTNERS, CANADA, MEXICO, AND WE'RE ALSO SEEING, YOU KNOW, NEW RHETORIC ABOUT THE DESIRE, YOU KNOW, TO TAKE GREENLAND, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

CALLING INTO QUESTION, REALLY, I THINK, SOME OF THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF, YOU KNOW, NORMS AGAINST TERRITORIAL AGGRESSION AND EXPANSION, THAT HAVE REALLY BEEN, I THINK, IMPORTANT TO HOLDING YOU YOU KNOW, EVEN AUTHORITARIAN POWERS LIKE CHINA AND RUSSIA IN CHECK.

SO, THAT'S A REALLY BIG DEPARTURE.

AND MANY AMERICAN ALLIES, ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE, AND IN CANADA NA DA, ARE NOW LOOKING TO THE UNITED STATES, WONDERING IF THEIR GREATEST THREAT IS NOT AT ALL CHINA, BUT THE UNITED STATES, INSTEAD, AND SO --A BIG PART OF, I THINK, AMERICAN STRENGTH IS RUN THROUGH OUR ALLIANCES AND PARTNERSHIPS, AND THOSE ARE VERY MUCH, I THINK, BEING CALLED INTO QUESTION.

>> I WONDER WHAT THE LESSONS ARE THAT CHINA TAKES AS THE UNITED STATES POSTURE IS MUCH CLOSER TO RUSSIA, IN LIGHT OF UKRAINE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, YOU KNOW, HOW THE UNITED STATES DEALS WITH UKRAINE IS GOING TO BE A SIGNAL FOR CHINA ON WHAT IT COULD DO WITH TAIWAN.

>> I THINK CHINA'S QUITE NERVOUS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK THEY THINK IT CAN GO THAT FAR, AND CERTAINLY, THE - -I THINK XI AND PUTIN HAVE TAKEN PAINS TO REASSURE ONE ANOTHER THAT THEIR PARTNERSHIP ISN'T DRIVEN BY THESE EXTERNAL FACTORS, AND IT REMAINS STRONG.

BUT I THINK THAT THE --CHINA SEES BENEFITS AND RISKS.

ON THE ONE HAND, THE UNITED STATES IS, I THINK, UNDERMINING MANY OF ITS KEY STRENGTHS, NOT ONLY IN THE ALLIES AND PARTNERS, BUT ALSO, I THINK, THE DOMESTIC BASIS OF, YOU KNOW, CHINA --SORRY, THE DOMESTIC BAY VICE OF AMERICAN KIND OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY LEADERSHIP, SO, WE'RE WITNESSING A KIND OF BRAIN DRAIN THAT CHINA AND EUROPE IS BENEFITING FROM, FRANCE, OTHERS ARE LURING AMERICAN SCIENTISTS WHO SEE A DEAD END FOR THEIR CAREERS HERE NOW, IN THE NEW CLIMATE.

BUT THEY ALSO, I THINK, IN CHINA SEE RISKS, YOU KNOW, THAT AGAIN, CHINA'S IN A REALLY DIFFICULT DOMESTIC POSITION NOW, AND THEY'VE BEEN TRYING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS TO STABILIZE THEIR --THE KIND OF EXTERNAL ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW, NOT SHYING AWAY FROM PUNCHING BACK, BUT NONETHELESS, NOT LOOKING TO PROVOKE ESCALATION OR CONFLICT, SO, I DON'T SEE THEM NECESSARILY CROWING THAT LOUDLY, THOUGH THEY'RE CERTAINLY HAPPY TO POINT OUT TO AMERICAN ALLIES AND PARTNERS JUST HOW UNRELIABLE THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN OF LATE AND THAT CHINA, YOU KNOW, CONTINUES TO PORTRAY ITSELF AS THE DEFENDER OF THE STATUS QUO IN CONTRAST TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> I WONDER IF THE WORK THAT CHINA HAS BEEN DOING ACROSS WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER THE GLOBAL SOUTH, THE PARTNERSHIP S WITH THE BELT AND ROAD INITIATIVE, THE INVESTMENTS IN, YOU KNOW, EVEN IN, SAY, INDIA, PAKISTAN, SORT OF DIFFERENT REGIONS, ARE PAYING OFF NOW, IF THAT'S AS GOOD A HEDGE AS YOU NEED.

>> I THINK THEY'VE BEEN PRETTY EFFECTIVE AS A HEDGE.

CHINA HAS, SINCE THE FIRST TRADE WAR, REALLY TRIED TO DIVERSIFY AWAY FROM THE UNITED STATES TOWARD WHAT WE CALL SOUTH RELATIONSHIPS.

AND THE TRADE HAS BECOME INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT TO CHINA, AND I THINK PROVIDES REAL KIND OF INSURANCE FOR CHINESE BUSINESSES SEEKING ACCESS TO MARKETS, AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, RAW INPUTS.

AND IT MEANS THAT WHEN THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, RAISES TARIFFS AGAINST CHINA AND CHINA RETALIATES, AND AS THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, TAKES ON MANY OF ITS TOP TRADING PARTNERS, YOU KNOW, WITH GREATER TARIFFS, THE RISK OF THE UNITED STATES ACTUALLY ISOLATES ITSELF FROM THE WORLD, AND THAT CHINA CONTINUES, YOU KNOW, TO, YOU KNOW, COURT THOSE WHO ARE, I THINK, WARY OF THE ELEMENT OF CHAOS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS INTRODUCING INTO THE GLOBAL TRADING SYSTEM.

>> THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS RIGHT NOW ABOUT A GOLD PASS THAT WOULD OFFER BASICALLY CITIZENSHIP IN THE UNITED STATES FOR ABOUT $5 MILLION.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE COMMERCE SECRETARY EXPECT TO SELL A MILLION OF THESE, AND THEY SAID, LOOK THE NUMBER OF CHINESE BUSINESSMEN OR PEOPLE THAT COULD COME OVER WITH THEIR FAMILIES.

IS THAT GIVEN KIND OF WHERE THE TENSIONS ARE RIGHT NOW?

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE CHINESE BILLIONAIRES WANT TO HAVE IN THEIR SIDE POCKET, IS JUST AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEAVE CHINA AND GO TO THE UNITED STATES?

OR DO THEY SEE KIND OF BOTH AS UNSTABLE OR UNPREDICTABLE?

>> I THINK THAT THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF CHINESE THAT WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THEIR, YOU KNOW, THEIR INVESTMENTS AND ASSETS ELSEWHERE, WHERE THEY FEEL SAFER, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT IN THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT, THE UNITED STATES FEELS LIKE THE SAFEST OF HAVENS.

WHICH IS REALLY A MISSED OPPORTUNITY, AND IF ANYTHING, I THINK --AT LEAST IN THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY DOMAIN, WE ARE SEEING A REVERSAL, WHERE CHINESE SCIENTISTS WHO ONCE CONTRIBUTED THEIR EFFORTS TO INNOVATION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE BEING RECRUITED BACK TO CHINA.

SO, THIS IS A REAL OWN GOAL FOR THE UNITED STATES, AND IF THE GOLD CARD OR OTHER MECHANISMS, THEY COULD BE STRENGTHENED.

I THINK THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY HERE TO BRING CHINESE AND OTHERS WITH A LOT OF TALENT AND AS SETS TO INVEST IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT'S ONE THING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF HAS BEEN OPEN TO, EVEN THOUGH ASPECTS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION DOCUMENTS SUGGESTING, YOU KNOW, HIGHER DEGREE OF SCRUTINY OF CHINESE INVESTMENT, BUT ON TELEVISION, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, ACTUALLY, WE WELCOME CHINESE MONEY TO BRING JOBS HERE.

SO, I THINK THAT'S STILL VERY MUCH AN OPEN QUESTION IF THIS WILL GO IN THE DIRECTION OF BEING MORE WELCOMING OR MORE CLOSED.

>> SO, WHAT DOES THAT DO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TOUCHED ON INNOVATION THERE, IF CHINESE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE EITHER BEING LURED BACK OR FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, THEY DECIDE, YOU KNOW, I -- I CAN MAKE A PRETTY GOOD LIVING IN CHINA, THERE ARE SOME FANTASTIC TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES, THERE'S SCIENCE COMPANIES THAT WANT TO HIRE ME THERE.

>> THIS, IN SOME WAYS, IS LIKE HISTORY POTENTIALLY REPEATING ITSELF IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE COLD WAR, CHINESE ROCKET SCIENTIST WHO HELPED FOUNDING THAT IN THE UNITED STATES THEN COULDN'T, YOU KNOW, CONTINUE TO BE EMPLOYED HERE, WENT BACK TO CHINA AND FOUNDED THEIR KIND OF ROCKET PROGRAM, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, TODAY, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE WORLD LEADERS.

SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A CHALLENGE BOTH IN NUMBERS AND IN TERMS OF THE QUALITY OF THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE LEAVING.

AND REALLY, THIS HAS TO DO WITH SCIENTIFIC INVESTMENT --FEDERAL INVESTMENT IN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, WHERE CHINA IS SPENDING A MAGNITUDE MORE IN THIS AREA THAT THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, AND CUTS TO THE --WHETHER IT'S THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION, THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, THE ATTACKS ON UNIVERSITIES, THE OVERHEAD AND QUESTIONS AROUND HOW MUCH LONGER UNIVERSITIES CAN CONTINUE TO BE WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN, WHICH IS REALLY THE ENVY OF THE WORLD AND THE MAGNET FOR INTERNATIONAL TALENT.

THIS IS ALL, I THINK, GOING VERY MUCH POTENTIALLY IN THE WRONG DIRECTION TO THE BENEFIT OF CHINA OR, YOU KNOW, OTHER COUNTRIES, I MENTIONED, IN EUROPE, THAT ARE ALREADY PUTTING TOGETHER PROGRAMS TO ATTRACT THE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE FEARING FOR THEIR CAREERS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> IS CHINA USING THIS OPPORTUNITY TO TRY TO ELEVATE ITS POSITION ON THE WORLD STAGE FROM KIND OF JUST A FOREIGN OR MILITARY MIGHT?

>> SO, CHINA CERTAINLY, I THINK WANTS TO PLAY A GREATER ROLE IN LEADING, BUT WHAT THAT LEADERSHIP LOOKS LIKE, I THINK, IS VERY MUCH A WORK IN PROGRESS.

SO FAR, THEY'VE BEEN PRETTY OPPORTUNISTIC, AND SYMBOLIC IN THE WAYS THEY HOPE TO LEAD.

BEING ABLE TO SET THE TABLE FOR DIPLOMATIC DISCUSSIONS, BUT NOT NECESSARILY PLAYING A DRIVING ROLE IN KIND OF TWISTING ARMS TO BRING WARRING PARTIES TO THE TABLE.

I THINK THAT THEIR ASPIRATIONS FOR TAIWAN REALLY HAVEN'T CHANGED, BUT ALTHOUGH MANY PEOPLE THINK THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF IMPATIENCE, GIVEN CHINA'S GROWING CAPABILITIES.

BUT ALSO, I THINK GIVEN TRENDS ON THE ISLAND AND IN THE U.S.

RELATIONSHIP, UNOFFICIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH TAIWAN, HAVE ALSO, I THINK, PROVOKED A DEGREE OF CONCERN AND EVEN PESSIMISM ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW THAT SITUATION IS UNRAVELING.

AND SO, I DON'T SEE, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, KIND OF A PRECIPITOUS MOVE HERE.

I THINK CHINA'S ACTUALLY BEEN KIND OF WANTING TO, AGAIN, ESTABLISH ITSELF AS A LEGITIMATE AND CENTRAL PLAYER ON THE WORLD STAGE, NOT BE KIND OF RELEGATED TO THE MARGINS, CERTAINLY THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY DOESN'T WANT DEMOCRACY TO BE SEEN AS THE INEVITABLE TRAJECTORY OF COUNTRIES ARD OUND THE WORLD, THAT'S VERY MUCH THREATENING TO THE CONTINUATION OF THEIR ROLE.

SO, AS KIND OF ONE OF THE REMAINING COMMUNIST PARTIES IN THE WORLD THAT'S IN A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP, CHINA'S VERY CONCERNED ABOUT GOING THAT WAY.

SO, I THINK A LOT OF THE EFFORT THEY'VE MADE TO STEP UP ON THE WORLD STAGE IS TO BE SEEN AS CENTRAL, RATHER THAN PERIPHERAL.

BUT AGAIN, HOW MUCH HAVE THEY BEEN WILLING TO INVEST IN SHOWING THAT CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT CAN BE RELIED UPON OR TURNED TO IN TIMES OF CRISIS?

THEY'VE BEEN MUCH MORE SELECT IFL AND SELECTIVE IN THEIR OBJECTIVES OF TAKING, OR QUOTE UNQUOTE, REUNIFYING WITH TAIWAN.

I DON'T SEE THAT BEING PRECIPITOUSLY CHANGED BY CHANGES IN THE UNITED STATES, SO LONG AS U.S. POLICY TOWARD TAIWAN AND CHINA REMAINS ON A MORE OR LESS EVEN KEEL.

SO FAR, THE PRESIDENT HAS, YOU KNOW, DECLINED TO CHANGE U.S. POLICY TOWARD TAIWAN.

WHICH I THINK IS --IS WISE.

BUT WE SHALL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DAYS AND MONTHS TO COME.

>> ONE OF THE STORIES IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS HAS BEEN THE UNITED STATES DECIDING TO CUT OFF, YOU KNOW, RADIO FREE LIBERTY, RADIO FREE ASIA, EUROPE, AND SO FORTH, VOICE OF AMERICA AND SORT OF OTHER NETWORKS.

IS THAT AN OPPORTUNITY FOR CHINA?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK THAT IT REDUCES THE SET OF VIEWS THAT PEOPLE IN SOUTHEAST ASIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD HEAR.

I THINK THAT THE BIGGER, YOU KNOW, EFFECT, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, IS TO REDUCE THE SENSE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS, YOU KNOW, CHAMPIONING SORT OF THE CAUSE OF DEMOCRACY AGAINST CHINA AND THE SUPPORT THAT USAID AND THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT OF DEMOCRACY HAVE PLAYED AND SUPPORTING GROUPS THAT WERE CRITICAL OF CHINA, HOLDING IT TO ACCOUNT.

SOME OF THIS IS REASSURING TO CHINA, AND SOME IN WAYS, CONTINUES A TREND OF AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, LEADERS REALIZING THAT WE HAVE A LIMITED ABILITY TO SHAPE THE TRAJECTORY OF CHINA'S DOMESTIC POLITICAL SYSTEM, BUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A REALLY SUDDEN CHANGE, I THINK, THAT MANY ARE STILL, YOU KNOW, QUESTIONING, YOU KNOW, HOW --HOW THIS WILL ALL PLAY OUT.

I MEAN, I THINK CHINESE PROPAGANDA IS NOT NECESSARILY BEEN ALL THAT EFFECTIVE ITSELF.

AND ONE HAS TO WONDER ABOUT ALL OF THESE, YOU KNOW, STATE- FUNDED EFFORTS, I THINK, MUCH MORE IMPORTANT WOULD BE A KIND OF ROBUST AND VIBRANT NEWS MEDIA, INDEPENDENT NEWS MEDIA, THAT IS NOT FUNDED BY GOVERNMENTS, AND SO --WE'LL HAVE TO WATCH THAT SPACE.

>> ARE THERE CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THE PRESIDENT CREATES THIS ATMOSPHERE?

MAYBE IT'S HAWKISHNESS OR AGGRESSION TOWARDS CHINA, AND WHAT THE RIPPLE EFFECTS ARE IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY TO CIVIL LIBERTIES?

I'M THINKING PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, IN THE WAKE OF THE PANDEMIC, STATEMENT AFTER STATEMENT THAT CAME OUT OF THE PRESIDENT'S MOUTH, REALLY, AND THEN WE SAW A MASSIVE INCREASE IN ANTI-ASIAN HATE CRIMES FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

WHAT ARE --WHAT ARE THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF THE WAYS THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION FRAMES OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA?

>> I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU RAISED THE QUESTION OF RHETORIC AND THE ATTACKS ON, YOU KNOW, ASIAN AMERICANS, BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT WAS A REALLY BIG SEA CHANGE AFTER THE PANDEMIC, AND TO SOME EXTENT, I THINK WE'RE STILL LIVING IN THAT WORLD, EVEN THOUGH THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS ACTUALLY PIVOTED IN TERMS OF HIS RHETORIC, TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WANTING A CON STRUCK TY AND POSITIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH XI JINPING, SAYING A FAIR NUMBER OF NICE THINGS ABOUT HIM, BUT I THINK THAT IS TONE THAT EARLIER PERIOD SET STILL REMAINS VERY MUCH ALIVE ON CAPITOL HILL.

WE HAVE BILLS, YOU KNOW, SUGGESTING THE, YOU KNOW, EXPULSION OF CHINESE STUDENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE LEGISLATION THAT WOULD REALLY TREAT ALL, YOU KNOW, CHINESE INVESTMENT OR COMMERCE AS POTENTIALLY SUSPECT, ESPECIALLY ACADEMIC EXCHANGE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS REALLY DANIEL DAMAGING, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES HAS REALLY THRIVED ON BEING A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES AND FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES CAN --CAN ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE, AND IT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE AN OPEN ECONOMY, AND I THINK THE MORE THAT WE MOVE TO A CLOSED ONE, THE MORE THAT, YOU KNOW, COMPANIES OF ALL NATIONALITIES WONDER ABOUT COMING AND INVESTING IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND IT'S NOT JUST EVEN, I THINK, EFFECTING ASIAN AMERICANS NOW.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TOURISM TO THE UNITED STATES IS DOWN, WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE BEING TURNED AWAY AT THE BORDER OR HARASSED THAT AREN'T OF ASIAN EXTRACTION, AND SO, I THINK THIS IS ALL VERY MUCH CALLING INTO QUESTION THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED STATES AS A --AS AN OPEN AND WELCOMING SOCIETY, WHICH HAS REALLY FUELED, I THINK, OUR LEADERSHIP FOR SO MANY DECADES.

>> JESSICA CHEN WEISS, DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE FOR AMERICA, CHINA, AND THE FUTURE OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FINALLY, A ROARING SUCCESS.

FIVE LIONS WHO WERE RESCUED FROM UKRAINE HAVE FOUND THEIR PRIDE AND JOY HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

THE LION RESCUE CENTER IN KENT OFFICIALLY OPENED THIS WEEK, AND WAS BUILT TO WELCOME ITS NEW RESIDENTS.

THEY ARE RORY, AMANI, LIRA, AND VANDA.

THEY WERE RESCUED NEAR THE FRONT LINE IN UKRAINE.

ONE WAS SO SHELL SHOCKED SHE COULD BARELY WALK.

BUT NOW, THEY FINALLY HAVE SOME PEACE.

>>> JOIN US TOMORROW FOR MY CONVERSATION WITH AUTHOR COLUMN McCAIN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, "TWIST."

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD- BYE FROM LONDON.