A Public Defender for Jan. 6th Rioters Reacts to Trump’s Sweeping Pardons
Clip: 2/5/2025 | 18m 26sVideo has Closed Captions
Defense attorney Heather Shaner explains what she learned representing Jan 6 rioters.
On day one of his second term President Trump issued pardons for 1,000 insurrectionists who were arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced in U.S. courts for their actions on that day four years ago. Heather Shaner is a longtime public defender who has represented dozens of these individuals. She joins the show to tell us what she's learned from her work.
A Public Defender for Jan. 6th Rioters Reacts to Trump’s Sweeping Pardons
Clip: 2/5/2025 | 18m 26sVideo has Closed Captions
On day one of his second term President Trump issued pardons for 1,000 insurrectionists who were arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced in U.S. courts for their actions on that day four years ago. Heather Shaner is a longtime public defender who has represented dozens of these individuals. She joins the show to tell us what she's learned from her work.
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PBS and WNET, in collaboration with CNN, launched Amanpour and Company in September 2018. The series features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on issues impacting the world each day, from politics, business, technology and arts, to science and sports.>>> MEANTIME IN WASHINGTON, D TRUMP MUSK DEMOLITION PROCESS AGAINST ENEMIES PROCEEDS AT PACE.
THE NEW JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS EXTRACTED FROM THE FBI, COMPLIANCE TO HANDOVER DETAILS OF 5000 EMPLOYEES WHO WORKED ON THE JANUARY 6th INVESTIGATIONS, AS THEY FEAR RETRIBUTION AND EVEN TERMINATION.
THIS FOLLOWS WNET'S DAY ONE PARDONS FOR THOUSANDS OF WRITERS, OF COURSE, MANY OF THEM WERE ARRESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED, AND SENTENCED IN U.S. COURT FOR THEIR ACTIONS ON THAT DAY FOUR YEARS AGO.
A LONGTIME PUBLIC DEFENDER WHO HAS REPRESENTED DOZENS OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS, AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO TELL US WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED FROM THAT WORK.
>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
HEATHER SHANER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH OUR SPIRIT >> NICE TO MEET YOU.
>> MRS. SHANER, HOW WE FOUND YOU IS YOU WERE PROFILED IN A NEW YORKER DOCUMENTARY CALLED "PUBLIC DEFENDER."
THE PIECE -- AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS A COMPANION PIECE THAT FOLLOWED IN THE MAGAZINE THAT DESCRIBED YOUR WORK DEFENDING SOME OF THE JANUARY 6th DEFENDANTS.
SO, I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.
HOW DID YOU COME TO HAVE THESE CLIENTS?
>> I AM WHAT IS CALLED A COURT APPOINTED PUBLIC DEFENDER.
I AM NOT ACTUALLY IN THE PHYSICAL OFFICE OF THE FEDERAL DEFENDER.
THERE IS A SMALL PANEL OF ATTORNEYS WHO ACCEPT CASES, AND THERE WERE OVER 1000 CASES COMING FROM THE FEDERAL DEFENDER'S OFFICE.
SO, MICHEL PETERSON ASKED IF I WOULD TAKE SOME.
SHE WAS THE HEAD OF THE OFFICE, IN TERMS OF THE JANUARY 6th CASES.
AND I SAID I WOULD, EXCEPT I DID NOT WANT TO REPRESENT ANYONE WHO HAD INJURED A POLICE OFFICER.
>> OKAY, SO, DID YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, AT ALL?
I KNOW YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD A REDLINE AND THAT REDLINE WAS YOU WEREN'T GOING TO REPRESENT ANYBODY WHO HAD ASSAULTED THE POLICE.
BUT, DID YOU HAVE ANY HESITATION, AT ALL?
>> ON JANUARY 6th, LIKE EVERYONE IN D.C., I WAS HORRIFIED AND TERRIFIED, AND DID NOT PLAN TO REPRESENT ANY OF THE RIOTERS.
BUT, AS THE DAYS PASSED, AND I WAS ASKED, "WOULD I DO IT?"
I DECIDED THEY ALSO REQUIRED A LAWYER TO PROTECT THEIR LIBERTY RIGHTS.
>> HOW DID THEIR CASES COME TO YOU?
I MEAN, HOW MANY HAVE YOU HAD SO FAR?
DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT, THAT YOU HAVE HAD MORE THAN 40?
IS THAT RIGHT?
>> YES, ABOUT 45.
>> HOW DO PEOPLE RECEIVE YOU?
WERE PEOPLE GENERALLY HAPPY TO HEAR FROM YOU, OR NOT?
>> WELL, A FEW OF THE PEOPLE AT THE VERY BEGINNING ONLY WANTED A LAWYER WHO WOULD REPRESENT THEM, BASED ON THE CONSTITUTION OF 1776, AND THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT VERY MUCH WHEN I TOLD THEM THERE WAS NO UNITED STATES, LET ALONE CONSTITUTION, IN 1776.
MOST OF THE DEFENDANTS WERE TERRIFIED, BECAUSE MOST OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED WERE UNINTENTIONAL RIOTERS.
THEY CAME FROM THE MIDLANDS, AND DID NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING INTO ON JANUARY 6th.
AND THEY WERE THRILLED TO HAVE A LAWYER TO HELP THEM.
A LOT OF THEM WERE A LITTLE SMARTER, AND THEY WOULD GOOGLE AND FIND OUT WHO I WAS, AND WHEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT I GAVE BOOKS IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND READING MATERIALS TO MY CLIENTS, THEY EITHER REALLY WANTED TO DO THAT, OR THEY THOUGHT THEY NEEDED ANOTHER LAWYER.
>> HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT APPROACH, BY THE WAY, GIVING YOUR CLIENTS READING MATERIALS, AND THINGS OF THAT SORT?
I KNOW I SAW IT IN THE DOCUMENTARY, I SAW YOU HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS, SO CLEARLY YOU ARE A READER, YOURSELF.
BUT, HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT IDEA?
>> THROUGHOUT 40 YEARS, I ALWAYS GAVE BOOKS TO MY CLIENTS, BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE INCARCERATED, THE WAY YOU CAN ESCAPE YOUR PRISON CELL IS YOU CAN READ A BOOK, AND IT CAN TAKE YOU AROUND THE WORLD, IT CAN TAKE YOU INTO THE FUTURE, IT CAN TAKE YOU BACK THROUGH HISTORY, AND IT GAVE A LOT OF SOLACE TO MY CLIENTS.
FOR THE JANUARY 6th PEOPLE, IT WAS AN AWFUL LOT OF CIVICS, EDUCATION THAT THEY NEEDED, AND ALSO, I THOUGHT THAT THEY NEEDED A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD, TO LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEMS.
>> YOU SAID ALL OF THEM WERE KIND OF UNINTENTIONAL RIOTERS.
WHAT YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THAT?
>> I SAY THAT BECAUSE I DIDN'T REPRESENT MEMBERS OF THE OATH KEEPERS, OR PROUD BOYS, OR THOSE WHO HAD THE 1776, THE THREE PRESENTERS.
THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED CAME FROM SMALL TOWNS IN EASTERN WASHINGTON, CENTRAL FLORIDA, EASTERN TEXAS, INDIANA, ILLINOIS.
THEY DID NOT HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE THE CAPITAL THAT DAY.
THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
THEY MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HAPPENED ON ELECTION NIGHT, WHEN IT WOULD SHOW TRUMP UP, THEN TRUMPED DOWN, THEY THOUGHT IT WAS ALL MANIPULATED BY "THE DEEP STATE."
AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE DEEP STATE DIDN'T EXIST.
MOST OF THEM ONLY HAD ACCESS TO THE INTERNET AND FAR RIGHT MEDIA, AND IF YOU REPEAT A LIE OFTEN ENOUGH, THESE PEOPLE BELIEVED IT.
SO, THEY CAME TO WASHINGTON BECAUSE TRUMP SAID, "COME ON."
AND EITHER THEY CAME TO SAVE AMERICA, OR THEY CAME BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE A BIG PARTY.
AND WHEN THEY ARRIVED, THEY APPARENTLY WERE SERVED A LOT OF ALCOHOL, AND THEY ALSO -- AND AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT THE CAPITAL WERE SMOKING MARIJUANA.
SO, YOU HAD PEOPLE WHO WERE A LITTLE INEBRIATED.
THEY WERE INTOXICATED, BUT BEING SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO AGREED WITH THEM, RATHER THAN FAMILY MEMBERS AND OTHERS WHO, SINCE NOVEMBER, WERE TELLING THEM THAT THEIR IDEAS WERE COCKAMAMIE.
AND THEY GOT ALL HYPED ON ADRENALINE, WENT INTO THE CAPITAL, SCREAMED AND YELLED, MARCHED AROUND, "THIS IS OUR HOUSE, THIS IS OUR HOUSE."
WENT HOME, SAW THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF RIOTERS WHO HAD DONE TERRIBLE THINGS, AND A LARGE NUMBER OF MY CLIENTS WERE UPSET WHEN THEY SAW THE DESTRUCTION THAT OTHER INDIVIDUALS HAD ENGAGED IN.
AND THE VIOLENCE.
>> OKAY, SO, BUT, WHEN YOU SAID THEY ONLY HAD ACCESS TO FAR RIGHT MEDIA, I MEAN, IF THEY HAD ACCESS TO THE INTERNET, THEY HAD ACCESS TO EVERYTHING, WHICH MEANS THEY COULD HAVE SOUGHT OUT OTHER INFORMATION, SO THEY WERE CHOOSING TO FOCUS ON THAT PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW.
SO, I DON'T KNOW, WHY SHOULD PEOPLE HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THAT?
>> OH, I DON'T SAY YOU SHOULD HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THEM.
BUT, YOU SURE WANT TO EDUCATE THEM.
YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE, QUESTION THEM AS TO THEIR SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND WHY THEY BELIEVE IT, AND FIND OUT IF THEY ARE WILLING TO READ ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW, TO BE EDUCATED A LITTLE, THAT THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO INTERPRET THE ELECTION.
THAT THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO INTERPRET WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE WORLD.
>> AND IN THE NEW YORKER DOCUMENTARY, AND IN THE PIECE THAT ACCOMPANIED IT, THEY PROFILED JUST TWO OF THE 45 CLIENTS THAT YOU REPRESENTED.
THEY HAD DIFFERENT STORIES.
JUST, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WILL YOU TELL ME ABOUT THEM?
TELL ME ABOUT ANNIE HOWELL?
>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS SOLICITED IN WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA BY ANY NAMED FRANK WREN, AND HE WAS A FAR RIGHT OPERATIVE.
HE SENT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TO WASHINGTON ON JANUARY 6th, IN BUSES.
BETWEEN THE ELECTION IN 2020 AND JANUARY 6th, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAD BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN POLITICS.
SHE MET ERIC TRUMP, SHE MET HANNITY, SHE COLLECTED AFFIDAVITS FROM PEOPLE TO PROVE THERE WAS VOTING FRAUD.
AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS INITIALLY CHARGED WITH FELONY.
AND MISDEMEANORS.
>> AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AS I RECALL, MANY PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW HER NAME BECAUSE SHE TESTIFIED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, AND -- SO, IF YOU WOULD REMIND PEOPLE, LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED IN HER CASE?
>> I WAS LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE DOWN TO MISDEMEANOR PLEASE.
JUDGE HOGAN, NONETHELESS, FELT THAT HER PARTICIPATION IN THE RIOT WAS INTENTIONAL, EVEN IF SHE HAD CHANGED HER VIEWS SINCE THEN.
AND HE SENTENCED HER TO 60 DAYS IN JAIL.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE FIRST THING SHE DID AFTER WE MET, WAS GET A LIBRARY CARD.
AND WHILE SHE WAS INCARCERATED, SHE READ A BOOK A DAY.
AND SHE SAID HER LIFE WAS TOTALLY CHANGED, AND SHE WAS A BIG READER NOW, AND SHE HAD BEEN MORE EDUCATED IN THE YEAR SINCE I BEGAN TO REPRESENT HER, THEN IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.
>> THE OTHER CLIENT PROFILED IN THE PIECE WAS JACK GRIFFITH, KIND OF A DIFFERENT STORY.
WHAT IS HIS STORY?
>> JACK CAME TO D.C. FROM TENNESSEE.
HE WAS PRETTY ADDICTED TO THE INTERNET, AND HIS GOAL IN LIFE WAS TO HAVE GOOD ABS AND A LOT OF FOLLOWERS.
HE CAME TO WASHINGTON, D.C. FOR THE PARTY.
HE VIDEOED HIMSELF SCREAMING, AND YELLING, AND MAKING ALL KINDS OF NOISE, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET INTERNET FOLLOWERS.
AND HE WAS ZERO POLITICAL, ZERO INFORMED, AND HE WASN'T REGISTERED TO VOTE.
JACK WAS ONLY EVER CHARGED WITH MISDEMEANORS, AND HE WAS SENTENCED TO, I THINK, NINE DAYS OF HOME CONFINEMENT, AND HE NEVER WENT TO JAIL.
JACK WAS OFFERED BOOKS, AND HE NEVER READ ANYTHING.
HE STILL DIDN'T FLOAT -- VOTE IN THE LAST ELECTION, BECAUSE HE IS STILL NOT REGISTERED.
BUT, I THINK HE IS PRODUCING A VIDEO GAME, IN HONOR OF TRUMP.
>> THE PEOPLE YOU REPRESENTED, DID YOU SEE, WAS THERE KIND OF A THROUGH LINE THERE, BEYOND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, THAT MOST OF THEM DIDN'T REALLY MEAN TO -- OR, AT LEAST THE CIRCUMSTANCES SUGGEST THEY DIDN'T REALLY MEAN TO BE A PART OF ALL OF THAT?
>> THE ONE THING THAT I THINK CHARACTERIZES THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE I REPRESENTED -- NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT A LOT OF THEM -- IS THERE WAS SOME HEALTH ISSUES.
ALMOST EVERY YOUNG MAN, OLD MAN, WOMAN I DEALT WITH, BY THE TIME WE GOT -- YOU STARTED OUT WITH PRETRIAL SERVICES AND YOU FIND OUT, DO THEY HAVE ANY MENTAL HEALTH OR DRUG CONCERNS?
THEN, YOU GET TO KNOW THEM OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
THEN, THEY ARE INTERVIEWED FOR PROBATION IF THEY PLEAD GUILTY, AND THERE IS A VERY THOROUGH PROBATION INVESTIGATION, INCLUDING MEDICAL ISSUES.
THE TWO SOLDIERS I REPRESENTED HAD SEVERE PTSD, AND DEPRESSION, AND ANXIETY.
THE MAJORITY OF THE OTHER INDIVIDUALS I REPRESENTED HAD, ALSO, PTSD FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA, ADHD, DID NOT SUCCEED IN SCHOOL, HAD A VARIETY OF OTHER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, THE MOST COMMON ONE.
SO, THAT WAS A FACTOR THAT IMPACTED THEIR CHOICES.
THEY WERE ISOLATED AND ALONE DURING COVID.
THEY BECAME ACTIVE WITHIN POLITICAL GROUPS DURING THAT TIME, TO HELP REMOVE SOME OF THE ISOLATION.
I HAD ONE GUY FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK FROM SYRACUSE, AND HE WAS ALONE THROUGHOUT COVID, UNTIL HE WAS SOLICITED ONLINE TO A FAR RIGHT CHAT GROUP, AND IT GAVE HIM COMFORT.
AND THEY HAD A BREAK IN THEIR EDUCATION, AND HAD, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, CHOSEN MISINFORMATION.
>> YOU KNOW ONE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST OFFICIAL ACTS UPON TAKING OFFICE WAS TO PARDON NEARLY ALL OF THE 1600 PEOPLE IN CONNECTION WITH JANUARY 6th, AND HE, YOU KNOW, COMMUTED OTHERS.
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ASSAULTED POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT, REGARDLESS OF IF THEY CONVICTED CONSPIRACIES OR NOT, AND WHETHER THERE WERE PRIOR ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
IT EMERGES THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE DID HAVE SIGNIFICANT PRIOR ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
SO, I DON'T KNOW, HOW DO YOU FEEL, NOW?
I MEAN -- >> NONE OF MY CLIENTS WROTE TO ME BEFORE JANUARY 20th AND SAID, "MS. SHANER, CAN YOU GET ME ONE OF THOSE PARDONS?"
NOT ONE!
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IN FACT, WASN'T INTERESTED AND DIDN'T WANT A PARDON.
INITIALLY, WHEN THE PARDONS WERE ISSUED, THEY FELT LIKE ALL THE WORK I HAD DONE WITH MY CLIENTS, AND ALL THE EDUCATION, AND FRIENDSHIP, AND LOVE WE HAD SHARED, AND THE DOCUMENTARY ITSELF, THE WORK IT WAS DOING WAS INVALIDATED.
AND I WAS VERY UPSET.
I THOUGHT THAT THE PARDONS ARE JUST A SHOW BY THE SHOWMEN IN THE CAPITAL, IN THE WHITE HOUSE RIGHT NOW.
AND IT IS A VERY BAD IDEA.
HOWEVER, IF, IN ANY WAY, IT LEADS TOWARD RECONCILIATION, THEN THAT WOULD BE GOOD.
IF WE CAN ALL ACKNOWLEDGE, AS THE JUDGES DID IN THEIR DISMISSAL ORDERS, THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, HAPPENED, AND NO DISMISSAL ORDER, NO PARDON IS GOING TO ERASE THE DAY OF INFAMY AND VIOLENCE.
IF WE CAN AGREE THAT IT OCCURRED, AND THEN MOVE ON, THEN FOR MY CLIENTS, IF THERE IS ANY BENEFIT TO THEM, SO BE IT.
THE PARDON CANNOT WHITEWASH WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.
AND JUST AS THEY SAY AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, DOCUMENT, TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH, AGREE ON FACTS, AND NEVER FORGET.
>> SO, BEFORE I LET YOU GO, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS YOUR ROLE IN THIS MOMENT?
>> WELL, I DON'T HAVE ANY MORE JANUARY 6th CLIENTS, EXCEPT THOSE WHO HAVE BECOME MY FRIENDS.
BUT, I HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG MEN AT THE D.C.
JAIL WHO ARE CHARGED WITH GUNS, AND CARJACKINGS, AND DRUGS, AND I AM GOING TO DO WHATEVER I CAN TO KEEP THEM FREE OF THE DRACONIAN PUNISHMENTS THAT COME DOWN ON YOUR HEADS, WHEN YOU DO FOOLISH THINGS BECAUSE YOU ARE 18 YEARS OLD.
>> WELL, HEATHER SHANER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
