>>> OHIO RESPONDS TO THE I.C.E.

CRACKDOWN, AND FALSE ALLEGATIONS OF DAY CARE FRAUD.

>>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

THE WEEK BEFORE CHRISTMAS, OUT- OF-TOWN I.C.E.

AGENTS AND BORDER CONTROL OFFICERS ARRIVED IN THE COLUMBUS AREA, AND LAUNCHED A MAJOR EFFORT TO ARREST UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

AGENTS SAY THEY ARRESTED 280 PEOPLE, SOME OF WHOM, AUTHORITIES SAY, HAD MORE SERIOUS CRIMINAL RECORDS.

THE ARRESTS GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION, BUT DID NOT SPARK WIDESPREAD PROTESTS, LIKE WE SAW IN CHICAGO --AND NO ONE WAS HURT.

UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS THIS WEEK.

THAT'S WHEN AN I.C.E.

AGENT SHOT AND KILLED A WOMAN DRIVING HER SUV NEAR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITY.

SHE TRIED TO DRIVE AWAY.

THE TWO SIDES IN OUR DIVIDED COUNTRY SAW THAT SAME VIDEO VERY DIFFERENTLY.

>> I CAN BELIEVE THAT HER DEATH IS A TRAGEDY, WHILE ALSO RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S A TRAGEDY OF HER OWN MAKING, AND A TRAGEDY OF THE FAR LEFT, WHO HAS MARSHALED AN ENTIRE MOVEMENT, A LUNATIC FRINGE, AGAINST OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

>> IT FEELS, TO ME, LIKE WE'RE AT ONE OF THOSE INFLECTION POINTS, THAT SIMPLY ASKING OUR GOVERNMENT TO GIVE US ACCOUNTABILITY, LISTEN TO LOCAL LEADERS, RATCHET DOWN THE RHETORIC, LET PEOPLE FEEL SAFE IN THEIR PERSON, AND LET'S LET OUR KIDS GO TO SCHOOL WITHOUT FEAR.

>> HERE, IN COLUMBUS, THE SHOOTING SPARKED PROTESTS AT CITY HALL AND THE STATEHOUSE THIS WEEK, AND MORE ARE PLANNED FOR THE WEEKEND.

HERB ASHER, THERE WAS ANOTHER I.C.E.

SHOOTING IN PORTLAND, TWO SHOOTING VICTIMS, NONFATAL, BUT SHOOTING VICTIMS, NONETHELESS.

DO YOU THINK WE ARE AT AN INFLECTION POINT, DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK WHEN WE SAW THE RESPONSE OF THE PRESIDENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND KRISTI NOEM, THAT WAS THE MOST APPALLING SET OF RESPONSES, I THINK.

HERE, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO, AND HERE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES NOT TRYING TO CALM THE SITUATION, HERE IS KRISTI NOEM NOT TRYING TO CALM IT, THEY ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO GENERATE MORE CONTROVERSY.

SO, WHEN THE GOVERNOR TALKS ABOUT AN "INFLECTION POINT," I WONDER WHETHER HE IS WORRIED THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TRY TO GENERATE MORE PROTESTS TO FURTHER THE NARRATIVE THAT THIS IS AN LEFT-WING, IRRESPONSIBLE PROTESTERS, WHATEVER.

BUT, WE ALL SAW THE VIDEO AND THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE WAS AN OUTRIGHT LIE, THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS JUST APPALLING, ONCE AGAIN, AND KRISTI NOEM -- I MEAN, THERE ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO DIVIDE US, AND I HOPE THEY ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL.

>> TERRY, DOES THIS --POLLS SHOW THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, CLEAR MAJORITY, WANT IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN.

BUT, WITH INCIDENTS LIKE THIS, EVEN IF WE DON'T DETERMINE WHO IS AT FAULT, SOMEBODY DIED THAT WASN'T REALLY INVOLVED, DOES THIS CHANGE HOW WE VIEW THESE THINGS?

>> WELL, THE BIGGEST THING IS THAT THE PERSON HAS BEEN INVOLVED PROFESSIONALLY IN SOME OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS.

THERE HAS BEEN A RUSH TO JUDGMENT BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS KIND OF THING RIGHT, NO OFFENSE, FOR JUST ONE PERSON ON ONE SIDE SEEING THIS VIDEO, OR THAT VIDEO, IS ONLY AN ENTIRE FRACTION OF THE WHOLE STORY.

BECAUSE IT WASN'T THE PRESIDENT, IT WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT WHO SAID THIS WOMAN WAS BRAINWASHED AND SHE WAS DOING TERRORISM, AND SHE WAS -- >> WELL, THERE WERE ALSO PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE WHO WERE MAKING CONCLUSIONS BASED ON ONE ANGLE, ONE VIDEOTAPE -- BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE TO DO THIS RIGHT, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE BODY CAM ALL THE OFFICERS, YOU HAVE TO INTERVIEW WITNESSES, LOOK AT ALL THE ANGLES, LOOK AT WHAT THE POLICIES ARE.

IT IS A LOT MORE INVOLVED AND THERE HAS BEEN A RUSH TO JUDGMENT, WHICH IS A MISTAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE SHOULD KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT UNTIL THEY HAVE THE FULL THING DONE AND MAKE SURE IT IS DONE RIGHT.

>> SO, YOU ARE SAYING, THE VICE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE SAID, "HOLD ON."

>> EVERYBODY, BECAUSE ONE CAMERA ANGLE DEPENDING ON THE SLOW-MOTION, FRAME BY FRAME, THAT IS ONE PART OF IT, BUT AGAIN, THE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE, THE INTERVIEWING THE WITNESSES ON BOTH SIDES, ALL THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO IT RIGHT.

THE RUSH TO JUDGMENT IS TOO SOON.

>> I THINK, AS A GENERAL PROPOSITION, WHAT TERRY IS SAYING MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

BUT, FOR THIS EVENT, FOR THIS TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED, THERE WERE SO MANY, ACTUALLY, DIFFERENT ANGLES THAT WERE SHOWN, SLOW-MOTION, FRAME BY FRAME, WHATEVER.

FOR YOU TO BE SAYING THAT, IS TO BE SAYING, "WELL, LET'S NOT RUSH TO JUDGMENT," WHICH IS ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING, "WELL, WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED."

AND MAYBE, THAT MEANS SHE REALLY WAS RESPONSIBLE.

IF EVERYBODY KEPT THEIR MOUTH SHUT, MAYBE WE COULD SEE WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, BUT THEY DIDN'T KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT AND THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT WAS THE LEADERS OF THIS COUNTRY.

>> WHEN YOU SEE THIS VIDEO, IT REMINDS ME OF THE CASE OF GLENDON TOWNSHIP SHOOTING NOT TOO LONG AGO AND THE OFFICER WAS ACQUITTED.

HE WAS DRIVING AWAY, FAR LESS QUICKLY THAN THIS WOMAN WAS TRYING TO DRIVE AWAY, AND HE WAS ACQUITTED.

SO --IT'S HARD TO TELL WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.

IF THE POLICE OFFICER FEELS HE IS IN DANGER, GENERALLY, IT IS JUSTIFIED, BY LAW.

>> RIGHT, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A --I THINK TERRY IS CORRECT, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT ALL THE EVIDENCE, LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENT CAMERA ANGLES.

I'M CURIOUS IF THERE WAS BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE FOR THE OFFICER WHO DID THE SHOOTING, WHAT THAT MIGHT SHOW, ET CETERA.

HOWEVER, I DO THINK IT WAS A -- THIS WOMAN, SHE WAS GETTING CONFLICTING DIRECTIONS FROM, "GET OUT OF HERE," "STOP," "GO," "STOP," AND SHE LOST HER LIFE, WHICH IS A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY.

>> GETTING BACK TO COLUMBUS, JOE, WERE THERE REPORTS OF IMMIGRANTS STAYING HOME, AFTER THESE INTENSE OPERATIONS A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, NOT SHOWING UP FOR WORK, NOT SHOWING UP FOR SCHOOL, NOT SHOWING UP FOR COURT HEARINGS, COULD THAT -- THIS COULD HAVE AN EFFECT --IT IS NOT A HUGE POPULATION, BUT IT WILL START TO HAVE AN EFFECT ON HOW THINGS ARE RUN, HERE?

>> YES, IT IS ALREADY HAVING AN EFFECT ON HOW LIFE IS RUN.

PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO GO TO CHURCH AND THAT IS THE REASON WE SAW AROUND CHRISTMAS, YOU KNOW, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE LOCAL LEADER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAID, YOU KNOW, WE WILL GIVE YOU A DISPENSATION OR WHATEVER, FOR COMING, ON CHRISTMAS EVE, TO CHURCH.

I MEAN, IT'S HAVING AN IMPACT.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY LOOKING AT, RIGHT NOW, IS YOU KNOW, WHERE IS THE LINE?

NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THESE LINES ARE.

WHAT IS THE THING THAT IS GOING TO MAKE YOU A TARGET OF SOMETHING?

AND WHAT ARE THE RULES FOR THIS?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO GO AFTER THE WORST OF THE WORST AND NOW, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING A STATUS PULLED OR A QUESTIONABLE STATUS, OR EVEN SOME HAVE BEEN CITIZENS.

>> MY COLLEAGUE AT "THE DAILY INQUIRER" DID SOME DIGGING AT WHO IS UNDER I.C.E.

ARREST AT THE BUTLER COUNTY JAIL WHICH IS ONE OF THE JAILS THAT HAS A CONTRACT AND I THINK SEVEN OUT OF 10 DIDN'T HAVE ANY CRIMINAL HISTORY, WHATSOEVER.

>> WHEN YOU RECITE PUBLIC OPINION, PUBLIC OPINION DOESN'T SUPPORT THIS KIND OF BLATANT CRACKDOWN ON ANYBODY WHO CAME HERE ILLEGALLY.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE IN PUBLIC OPINION POLLS I HAVE SEEN, HAVE SAID, "LOOK, IF THEY CAME HERE ILLEGALLY, INITIALLY, BUT THEY HAVE MADE A LIFE FOR THEMSELVES, THEIR FAMILY, THEY ARE TAXPAYERS, THEY HAVE NOT HAD ADDITIONAL OFFENSES -- EXCEPT FOR GETTING HERE ILLEGALLY --THEN, IN FACT, THERE NEEDS TO BE A WAY TO HAVE THEM STAY HERE."

BUT, IF THEY HAVE COMMITTED A FELONY SINCE, IN FACT, THEY HAVE CAME HERE, THEN THEY NEED TO BE DEPORTED OR GO TO JAIL.

SO, IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS SAYING, "AMERICANS SUPPORT THIS KIND OF ACTIVITY."

AND THE WAY YOU FRAMED THE QUESTION IS CRITICAL, HERE.

AND THERE IS MORE SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME HERE, WHO HAVE CREATED A GOOD LIFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILY.

>> TERRY, WHAT IS THE INCENTIVE TO FIND A REAL SOLUTION TO THIS?

IF WE HAVE THESE HIGH PROFILE I.C.E.

RAIDS AND PEOPLE PROTESTING THE RAIDS THEMSELVES, WITH ALL OF THIS, THE RHETORIC IS JUST SO HOT RIGHT NOW, THERE IS NO WAY FOR COMPROMISE, IS THERE?

>> WELL, THE RHETORIC IS OUT OF CONTROL, AND UNFORTUNATELY, CONGRESS, ON BOTH SIDES, PEOPLE WOULD RATHER ARGUE ABOUT THE ISSUE AND USE THE ISSUE --AND THIS IS ON BOTH SIDES, IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

BECAUSE WE REALLY --AMERICA'S IMMIGRATION POLICIES HAVE EVOLVED OVER TIME BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THERE WERE IRISH, AND ITALIANS, AND OTHERS THAT CAME IN HERE AND WEREN'T TREATED WELL.

THERE WAS THE QUESTION OF ASSIMILATION.

I MEAN, THIS IS A COMPLEX ISSUE AND UNFORTUNATELY, IN THIS POLARIZED ERA, IT'S NOT A GOOD TIME TO FIND A GOOD SOLUTION, BUT WE NEED A SOLUTION AND CONGRESS SHOULD HAVE ACTED LONG >> ANOTHER -- >>> ANOTHER CONTROVERSY HAS CONNECTED MINNESOTA TO COLUMBUS.

AS OFFICIALS INVESTIGATE ALLEGATIONS OF WIDESPREAD FRAUD INVOLVING SOMALI RUN DAYCARE CENTERS IN MINNEAPOLIS, SOME SUGGEST THAT SAME FRAUD IS HAPPENING WITHIN COLUMBUS' LARGE SOMALI COMMUNITY.

THE DIFFERENCE -- THERE'S NO EVIDENCE WIDESPREAD DAYCARE FRAUD EXISTING, HERE IN OHIO.

GOVERNOR DeWINE ANGRILY DENOUNCED SOCIAL MEDIA VIDEOS THAT FALSELY SUGGEST FRAUD.

HE SAYS, ANY FRAUD IS ISOLATED, AND HE CLAIMS THE STATE CLOSELY MONITORS DAY CARE CENTERS FOR WRONGDOING AND UNSAFE CONDITIONS.

LAURA BISCHOFF, THE CLASSIC, UNFAIR QUESTION YOU ASK SOMEONE IS, "DO YOU STILL BEAT YOUR WIFE?"

THIS IS WHERE MIKE DeWINE IS RIGHT NOW, HE IS BEING ASKED TO DISPROVE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT HAPPENING, AT LEAST WIDESPREAD.

>> RIGHT, AND I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING IS, ALL THESE LITTLE FIRES THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO STAMP OUT, SO THAT THEY DON'T BECOME A BIG CONFLAGRATION AND I THINK IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO DO SO.

I THINK THAT THE GOVERNOR WAS VERY CLEAR, THAT YOU CANNOT JUST WALTZ INTO A DAY CARE CENTER, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN THERE, IF YOU ARE NOT A SIGNED UP VISITOR, OR A WORKER.

AND THIS IS TO PROTECT KIDS.

AND THERE ARE ALL OF THESE, LIKE --I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO CALL THEM "CITIZEN JOURNALISTS."

THEY HAVE INVENTED THEMSELVES AS SLEUTHS, THEY ARE SHOWING UP AT THESE DAY CARE CENTERS, KNOCKING ON THE DOOR, AND WHEN THEY GET TURNED AWAY, THEY ARE SAYING, "OH, I'M THE VICTIM, HERE, THEY ARE TELLING ME I CAN'T COME IN, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG."

AND IT'S BALONEY.

>> IT GOES TO THE POWER, JO, OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

I MEAN, THESE VIDEOS, "DUBIOUS," IS A KIND WORD, BUT IT IS FORCING GOVERNOR OFFICIALS, LIKE THE GOVERNOR OF OHIO, TO HAVE NEWS CONFERENCES, SWORN IN FOR THE SECOND TIME IN A MONTH, HE USED THE WORD "HELL" THIS TIME, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT IT SHOWS YOU THE AND HOW YOU GET AWAY FROM THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW, THAT'S THE MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION, MIKE.

IF YOU HAVE THE ANSWER, LET ME KNOW.

I MEAN, I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, PEOPLE ARE, MORE AND MORE, NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO FACTS, NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU KNOW, HAVING QUESTIONS ABOUT THESE SITUATIONS, I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE QUESTION THINGS.

AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS JUST BECOME THIS HORRIBLE THING, IN SOME WAYS, THAT FEEDS INTO FEAR, AND FEEDS INTO MISINFORMATION.

AND THEN, PEOPLE ACT ON THAT.

AND I THINK ALL THOSE VIDEOS, IT'S COLLECTIVELY, IN MANY CASES, AND IT IS FEEDING INTO SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY NOT THERE, AS YOU POINTED OUT.

AND IT'S PROMPTING A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

>> YOU KNOW, I WANT TO POINT OUT, LIKE, FRAUD DOES HAPPEN IN THESE LARGE GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS, THERE'S JUST NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

AND I THINK THE GOVERNMENT DOES TAKE STEPS TO PREVENT, TO DETECT, TO INVESTIGATE, TO PROSECUTE FRAUD.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE ALL OF THESE POWERFUL DATA ANALYTICS, ANOMALIES IN HOW THINGS, HOW SERVICES ARE BEING BILLED, WHAT IS HAPPENING, THAT HAPPENS A LOT IN MEDICAID.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW --I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT, FRAUD DOES HAPPEN AND THERE SHOULD BE STEPS TO DETECT IT.

RUNNING AROUND WITH A VIDEO CAMERA AND --IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT.

>> WELL, THE GOVERNOR, IN THIS NEWS CONFERENCE, IT'S VERY GOOD AT MAKING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAYING PEOPLE ENROLLED ON PAPER, VERSUS VERIFIED ATTENDANCE, AND THEN WHEN THE GOVERNOR NOTED THEY DID LIKE, 10,000 SPOT INSPECTIONS AROUND TO MAKE SURE THE NUMBERS ARE MATCHING UP -- SO, I THINK ON THE CHILDCARE THING, IT'S NOT AS BIG A PROBLEM IN OHIO, CERTAINLY, AS MINNESOTA, BUT CORRECTLY, AS JO POINTS OUT, MEDICAID IS THE BIGGER CASH COW WHERE THERE IS A LOT MORE PROBLEMS THAN QUESTIONS, AND THERE ALSO NEEDS TO BE SOME EXAMINATIONS BECAUSE KEY SOURCES HAVE TOLD ME LOCAL PROSECUTORS HAVE TRACKED TO THE COUNTY, U.S.

ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IS RELUCTANT --IT IS A HALF- DOLLARS --TO BE BOTHERED BY PROSECUTING, AND YOU NEED TO GO AFTER BIG FISH, SMALL FISH, MEDIUM FISH, BECAUSE IT IS TAXPAYER MONEY THAT IS BEING RIPPED OFF.

>> KIRBY, WE NEED THESE VIRAL VIDEO GUYS, TO SEE HOW THEY DO, GO TO THE PATIENTS' ROOMS, RIGHT?

>> WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT FRAUD, YOU ASK THE QUESTION, WHO IS COMMITTING THE FRAUD?

OFTENTIMES, IT IS PROVIDERS.

AND YES, IN FACT, WHEN PEOPLE START GOING TO THESE DAY CARE CENTERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT IS SOMALI, PEOPLE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR, AND THEY ARE SAYING THERE IS A PROBLEM THERE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A HINT THAT, "OH, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE SOMALIS."

AND THAT, TO ME, APPROACH IS A VERY RACIST APPROACH, OR WHATEVER.

SO, THE QUESTION BECOMES, WHAT DO WE DO, IN THOSE CASES, WHEN YOU HAVE A LARGE PROGRAM --YOU KNOW, EVEN IF YOU HAD 2% OR 3% FRAUD, THOSE NUMBERS WILL LOOK HUGE AND THE NUMBER OF CASES WILL LOOK HUGE, SO HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT?

IDEALLY, OHIO HAS HAVE THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WE HAVE AN AUDITOR INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED, AN INDEPENDENTLY ELECTED ATTORNEY GENERAL.

IDEALLY, THE FEDS HAVE THEIR PEOPLE.

SO, THERE ARE WAYS OF TRACKING THIS DOWN.

>> WHAT IS IRONIC, HERE, IS THERE ARE CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS CLAIMING THERE IS FRAUD IN THE DAY CARE CENTER IN OHIO, AND ALSO CRITICIZING THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OF MINNESOTA FOR NOT CATCHING THAT FRAUD, WHEN THE CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE OF THE STATE FOR 30 YEARS!

SO, MIKE DeWINE CAN'T WIN BECAUSE HE IS --YOU KNOW?

>> WELL, IT'S THERE, AND IT'S GOOD THE PEOPLE ARE ASKING THESE QUESTIONS AND THE SCRUTINY IS THERE AND I THINK THAT ISN'T ALL BAD, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO SORT OUT --AND HERB MAKES A GREAT POINT, A LOT OF THESE PROVIDERS --AND SOME OF THIS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT NURSING HOME LOSS IN OHIO AND YOU DIG INTO THE DETAILS THERE, YOU UNDERSTAND THEY HAVE LEGISLATED DIFFERENT WAYS TO BE CREATIVE TO ENHANCE THEIR PAYMENT BASE.

I WON'T GO INTO MORE DETAILS, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND WE ARE TALKING NOT MILLIONS, BUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, SO, 2%, 3%, 5% ADDS UP TO REAL MONEY.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THERE IS FRAUD IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AS WELL, IT HAPPENS EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

>>> ANYWAYS --AMY ACTON AND VIVEK RAMASWAMY ARE BASICALLY STATEHOUSE OUTSIDERS, SO IT MAKES SENSE THE CANDIDATES FOR GOVERNOR BOTH CHOSE RUNNING MATES THAT ARE MORE DEEPLY EMBEDDED IN OHIO POLITICS.

THIS WEEK, REPUBLICAN VIVEK RAMASWAMY CHOSE OHIO SENATE PRESIDENT ROB McCOLLEY AS HIS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CANDIDATE.

DEMOCRAT AMY ACTON SELECTED DAVID PEPPER, FORMER OHIO DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIR AND FORMER CANDIDATE FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL.

JO INGLES, THESE ARE SOLID CANDIDATES.

MIGHT GENERATE SOME CRITICISM FROM PARTISANS ON EITHER SIDE, BUT THESE SEEM LIKE LOGICAL CHOICES.

>> YEAH, THOSE CHOICES SEEM TO FULFILL SOME NEEDS IN THOSE CAMPAIGNS.

YOU LOOK AT ROB McCOLLEY, HE IS --HE KNOWS THE LEGISLATURE, HE KNOWS HOW TO GET LEGISLATURE THROUGH.

THAT IS SOMETHING VIVEK DOESN'T HAVE EXPERIENCE DOING.

HE HASN'T BEEN IN A ROLE --AND HE IS GOING TO NEED THAT LEGISLATURE.

IF YOU LOOK AT AMY ACTON -- YOU KNOW, DAVID PEPPER HAS A LOT, HE HAS RAISED A LOT OF MONEY IN HIS LIFETIME, HE UNDERSTANDS THE SYSTEM, HE UNDERSTANDS THE LEGISLATURE, HE KNOWS CAMPAIGNING.

HE HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS TO ADD TO HER ABILITY TO GET HER JOB DONE.

SO, THE THING IS, I THINK THE CAMPAIGNS HAVE MADE DECISIONS TO PUT PEOPLE IN STRATEGIC PLACES, AND WE WILL SEE HOW IT TURNS OUT.

>> OR, THE STYLE --DAVID PEPPER IS --YOU KNOW, HE IS A PRETTY VIGOROUS, PRETTY AGGRESSIVE POLITICIAN, AMY ACTON, MORE RESERVED.

IS THAT WHAT SHE NEEDS?

SOMEONE WHO IS MORE OF AN ATTACK DOG, AS HER RUNNING MATE?

>> YEAH, I THINK DAVID PEPPER CAN BE, YOU KNOW, VERY CHARMING, BUT HE CAN ALSO BE VERY AGGRESSIVE, AND HARD- HITTING, AND DOESN'T MINCE WORDS IN HIS CRITICISM OF THE REPUBLICANS, AND I THINK THAT ALLOWS AMY ACTON TO, YOU KNOW, KIND OF TAKE THE HIGH ROAD AND THIS, LIKE, VERY COMPASSIONATE, EMPATHETIC PERSON.

SO, HAVING DAVID DO THE ATTACKS IS PROBABLY GOING TO WORK TO HER ADVANTAGE.

>> TERRY, DOES IT MATTER?

>> WELL, GOVERNING IS A DIFFERENT STORY, BUT DURING THE ELECTION, DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

>> NOT REALLY.

UNLESS YOU PICK SOMEBODY WHO IS A DUD OR IT EXPLODES, BUT EACH ONE SATISFIES THINGS, BECAUSE ROB McCOLLEY HELPS SEND A MESSAGE FROM NORTHWESTERN OHIO AND RURAL AND MEDIUM-SIZED TOWNS.

HE UNDERSTANDS MORE OF THAT PART OF OHIO, BEING A 3C GUY WHERE THAT IS ALL IMPORTANT.

SO, HE SATISFIES SOME THINGS.

DAVID PEPPER WILL DEFINITELY HELP IN RAISING MONEY, WHICH CLEARLY, WHEN REPORTS COME OUT, SHE NEEDS TO RAISE A LOT OF MONEY.

DAVID PEPPER KNOWS HOW TO DIAL FOR DOLLARS AND HE IS A BRIGHT GUY, BUT THERE IS ONE GUY, MIKE DeWINE, WHEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT CAME OUT OF IT BEING DAVID PEPPER, HE NEVER FORGOT, IN '14, WHEN DAVID PEPPER RAN COMPLETELY NASTY AND NEGATIVE, AND THEN DeWINE BLEW HIM OUT 523 POINTS PER DAVID PEPPER GOT THE GOVERNOR'S ATTENTION, WHICH MAKES THINGS MORE INTERESTING.

>> SO, BECAUSE DAVID PEPPER WAS CHOSEN AS THE RUNNING MATE?

>> BECAUSE ROB McCOLLEY WAS THE RUNNING MATE.

>> HE WAS GOING TO DO IT ON ANYWAY, SO THEY SPED IT UP AND PUT IT ON STEROIDS.

>> TO JOYS --JO'S POINT ABOUT ROB, IT GOES TO THE GOVERNING BECAUSE ONE DANGEROUS POINT ABOUT VIVEK, SHOULD HE GET ELECTED, HE IS A VERY ARROGANT, VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE, SMARTER THAN EVERYBODY, AND THOSE KINDS OF PEOPLE CAN FORGET THAT THERE IS A LEGISLATURE, AND ROB McCOLLEY WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN SAYING, VIVEK, IF YOU WANT A BUDGET PAST, YOU BETTER WORK COOPERATIVELY WITH MATT HOFFMAN, AND THE SENATE PERSON.

AND I THINK VIVEK RAMASWAMY NEEDS TO BE REMINDED THAT HE IS NOT THE SUPREME LEADER IF HE GETS ELECTED TO THE STATE OF OHIO.

>> WELL, ONE THING HE WILL NOT BE ON MUCH IS SOCIAL MEDIA, VIVEK RAMASWAMY SAYS --AND HE IS WEARING ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HIS CAMPAIGN ACCOUNTS WILL BE ACTIVE WITH HIS STAFF, BUT THE MAN WHO MADE HIS BRAND WITH VIDEOS ON TIKTOK AND INSTAGRAM IS GOING TO SWEAR IT OFF, SAYS IT'S "TOXIC."

DO YOU BELIEVE HIM, FIRST OF ALL?

AND IS IT A GOOD MOVE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS SO GOOD AT IT?

>> WELL, I THINK HE IS TAKING A BREAK, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL LAST AND HE CAN STILL HIT HIS CAMPAIGN POST FOR HIM.

LIKE WE SAID, IT IS UNHEALTHY, IT IS A DISTRACTION, AND "I DON'T WANT TO SPEND MY TIME DOING THAT."

HONESTLY, IT'S KIND OF A BREAK WE SHOULD ALL TAKE, AT TIMES.

YOU KNOW?

AND I ALSO THINK X IS A PARTICULARLY NASTY PLACE, AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF VERY RACIST COMMENTS DIRECTED AT HIM.

SO, YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE THERE IS A LOT OF RATIONALE FOR TAKING A BREAK.

>> AND HE HAS WISELY BEEN AGGRESSIVE IN SOME COLUMNS HE HAS DONE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND "WALL STREET JOURNAL," ATTACKING THOSE WHO WANT TO PLAY THE RACE CARD OR RELIGION CARD, SO I THINK HE IS BEING PROACTIVE ON THAT.

SO, IT'S A SMART MOVE TO DO THAT, BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS, NOW, WE KNOW WHAT THE TICKETS ARE, SO WE CAN MOVE FORWARD, IN TERMS OF THIS CAMPAIGN YEAR.

>> YOU THINK HE WOULD WRITE IT OFF TO "THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH," OR --RATHER THAN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL."

HE IS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OF OHIO, AFTER ALL.

>> WELL, ROB McCOLLEY DID ONE FOR "THE DISPATCH" THIS WEEK, SO I AM SURE THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF OFFENSE OUT THERE.

>>> LET'S GET OUR FINAL TOPIC.

IF YOU'RE WATCHING ON TV FRIDAY NIGHT, COMING UP NEXT, IS KEN BURNS' "AMERICAN REVOLUTION."

IT, OF COURSE, TELLS THE TALE OF THE STRUGGLE THAT GAVE BIRTH YOU TO AMERICA, 250 YEARS AGO.

KNOW, IT'S INCREDIBLE TO THINK THAT THIS FINE REPUBLIC MANAGED TO THRIVE FOR 230 YEARS BEFORE THIS SHOW WENT ON THE AIR.

THAT'S RIGHT.

"COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD," THIS WEEK, CELEBRATES ITS 20th ANNIVERSARY.

WE WENT ON THE AIR JANUARY 13th, 2006.

HERE'S WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE.

>> SENATOR MIKE DeWINE STRONGLY DEFENDS JUDGE ALITO.

DEBORAH PRYCE COPES WITH A SHAKE-UP IN GOP HOUSE LEADERSHIP, THE STATE BOARD OF ED KEEPS SCIENCE RULES, AND STEPHANIE HIGHTOWER SAYS GOODBYE TO THE COLUMBUS SCHOOL BOARD.

THESE TOPICS, AND MORE --THIS WEEK ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

>> WHERE AM I GOING?

I CAN'T FIND MY TIE!

ANYWAY, TERRY CASEY AND HERB ASHER WERE ON THAT FIRST SHOW.

LOOK AT THESE GUYS!

LAURA BISCHOFF AND JO INGLES -- WE DON'T HAVE IMAGES OF THEM, BUT THEY JOINED OUR PANEL, SOON AFTER.

WE'VE DONE THIS SHOW AT THE FAWCETT CENTER, COSI, BACK TO THE FAWCETT CENTER, WE DID IT ON ZOOM DURING COVID, AND THEN LANDED HER IN OUR NEW STUDIOS.

BUT, FOR SOME 1000 EPISODES, WE HAVE TRIED TO BRING YOU CIVIL CONVERSATION ON WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OHIO POLITICS.

TERRY CASEY, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE THAT ASK THAT QUESTION.

>> AND I DID HAVE A LOYAL YOU ANOTHER 20 YEARS."

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO HER, I'M NOT SURE THIS SHOW COULD MAKE IT 20 YEARS OR YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD A BIG BUDGET ITEM FOR MAKEUP TO COVER US UP.

>> YES, BIG-BUDGET AND "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" --TWO THINGS THAT NEVER GO TOGETHER.

HERB, LOOKING AT THE POLITICS, 2006, ROB TASK WAS GOVERNOR, SAMUEL ALITO WAS JUST A NOMINEE FOR THE SUPREME COURT, AS WE HEARD.

WHAT HAS CHANGED?

WHAT HAS REMAINED THE SAME IN OHIO POLITICS?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, THE STATE HAS BECOME EVEN MORE REPUBLICAN AND MORE CONSERVATIVE, AND PROBABLY, ALSO, I WOULD SAY THAT, IN GENERAL --AND CERTAINLY IN OHIO -- I WILL USE THE WORD "CORRUPTION," AND "ETHICS," UNDER GREATER CHALLENGE AND NOT JUST HOUSE BILL SIX.

SO, I THINK THERE ARE MANY THINGS, THERE ARE CERTAINLY SIMILARITIES.

>> WHAT ABOUT SOME MEMORIES?

JO, WHAT ARE YOUR MEMORIES OF THIS SHOW?

YOU HAVE BEEN ON HERE SINCE AT >> YEAH, IT'S THE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND THIS TABLE.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE BEST PEOPLE AROUND THIS TABLE.

AND SAM GRESHAM, FORMER COSMONAUT, HE WAS AROUND HERE A LOT.

ONE OF MY BEST MEMORIES IS, WE WOULD SIT HERE, AND THEY WOULD LEVEL OUR MICROPHONES, AND SAM USED TO HAVE THIS LITTLE DITTY THAT HE SAID ABOUT, "PAPA DIED, AND MAMA CRYING," AND IT WAS JUST FUNNY.

EVERY TIME HE DID THAT, I LAUGHED.

>> LAURA?

>> WHEN I FIRST STARTED ON THIS SHOW, I REMEMBER HAVING STAGE BUT A LITTLE BIT, JUST BECAUSE IT IS LIKE, A LITTLE BIT DAUNTING.

AND THEN, BY THE TIME WE WERE DOING IT BY ZOOM IT WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, NOT A BIG DEAL.

IT HAS BECOME A COMFORTABLE PLACE.

>> THOSE WERE SOME WEIRD, WEIRD DAYS.

>> PART OF THE FUN IS, THE PEOPLE YOU ARE WORKING WITH, BOTH ON CAMERA AND OFF-CAMERA, WHAT YOU GET TO LEARN AND REALIZE WITH THOSE FOLKS, BUT IT'S ALSO WHEN PEOPLE GREET YOU, "I SAW YOU ON TV."

THE GOOD NEWS IS, IN MOST CASES, I FOOL THEM BECAUSE THEY THINK I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING THE FEEDBACK FROM FOLKS AND BE ABLE TO GO IN DEPTH AND IN DETAIL ON THINGS RATHER THAN JUST ONE SENTENCE, OR TWO SENTENCES, OR A NAME-CALLING EXERCISE.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO MY FORMER BOSS, FRANK DAVIS, WHO HELPED ME LUNCH THIS SHOW 20 YEARS AGO, AND TO THESE PANELISTS!

THEY DO NOT GET PAID, BUT THEY COME HERE EVERY WEEKEND BRINGS HER A GAME AND --WE DON'T HAVE RULES, BUT THEY ARE ALWAYS CIVIL, EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THE BRUNT OF THE SHOW AND -- >> WE DO KNOW THE RULES!

>> YES, YOU DO.

NO PHONES.

>> ONE OF THE RULES IS, "ACT LIKE YOU ARE INTERESTED."

[ LAUGHTER ] >> YES, LOOK INTERESTED WHEN PEOPLE ARE TALKING.

>>> ANYWAY, LET'S GET TO OUR "OFF THE RECORD" PARTING SHOTS.

TERRY CASEY, YOU ARE FIRST.

>> WELL, I HATE TO BE THE DOWNER, BUT 2026 IS THE YEAR, FASTEN YOUR SEATBELTS, GET READY WITH THE CLICKER BECAUSE IT WILL BE A NASTY, NASTY CAMPAIGN YEAR BECAUSE THINGS ARE VERY POLARIZED.

, THE GOOD THING ABOUT THIS SHOW IS YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO LEAVE HOME, THE NAME-CALLING, THE TALKING POINTS, LET'S TALK ABOUT SUBSTANCE, SOMETHING NEW.

>> ALL RIGHT, TERRY?

>> I THINK IT IS APPALLING THAT VIVEK RAMASWAMY AND HIS FAMILY HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO ALL SORTS OF PREJUDICE AND WHATEVER AND THAT IS JUST WRONG, BUT I WILL ALSO SAY THAT VIVEK RAMASWAMY MADE HIS DEALS WITH TRUMP AND VANCE AND THEY ARE TWO OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING THE TONE OF THIS COUNTRY WORSE.

>> ALL RIGHT, JO?

>> I WANT TO WELCOME THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN TOWN FOR THE AMERICAN BASEBALL COACHES ASSOCIATION CONVENTION.

THIS IS A HUGE CONVENTION, AND IT HAS NEVER COME TO COLUMBUS, AT LEAST NOT IN MY LIFETIME.

IT HAS --LAST TIME IT CAME TO OHIO WAS 1950, AND IT IS A BIG CONVENTION, A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE.

YOU SEE ANY MAJOR BASEBALL PEOPLE OUT THERE THIS WEEKEND, THEY MIGHT BE HERE FOR THE CONVENTION.

>> LAURA?

>> MY FINAL THOUGHT, TERRY WAS SAYING HE'S NOT SURE IF YOU WOULD MAKE IT ANOTHER 20 YEARS ON THIS SHOW, I'M NOT GOING TO DO ANOTHER 20 YEARS ON THIS SHOW, I HOPE TO BE WELL RETIRED BEFORE THAT, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHEN I'M GOING TO RETIRE BECAUSE I WANT ALL OF MY PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS FULFILLED BEFORE THAT DAY COMES.

>> I JUST WANT TO THINK AND REMEMBER SOME FOLKS ON THE SHOW WHO HAVE PASSED AWAY --BENSON WOLMAN, FORMER AND CLU HEAD, CORNELL McCLEARY, PRESIDENT TRUMP FOUR, PUBLISHER, JIM SIEGEL FROM "THE DISPATCH," WE MENTIONED HIM AND SAM GRESHAM, PASSED AWAY THIS LAST SUMMER, WE REMEMBER THEM ON OUR 20th ANNIVERSARY.

>>> THAT'S "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

ANOTHER THING THAT HAS CHANGED OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS --YOU CAN HAVE A LIFE ON FRIDAY NIGHT, AND STILL WATCH US.

YOU CAN WATCH US ANYTIME, ON THE NEW WOSU NEWS YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.